So, You Hate TPTB. Whats your solution?

24 hour backgammon!

Akushla

Originally posted by mamabeth
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

The native men could hunt and fish all day.Make whoopie in the
teepee all night.The women did all the work and took care of the
children.Then the whitemen came over and changed everything.

If you go far back enough, the same has been the same for every country/region/colour/creed. Sorry, but that's true all over the world at some point and not just with the white man being the bad guy.

Good thread Slayer.

Although most of what I believe has already been covered by other posters I would still like to contribute my observations on the matter.

To begin with, I agree with some of the previous posters who believe the "TPTB" are all of us, as in contemporary society and no more or less dangerous than your neighbors and co-workers.

I also believe "TPTB" are a necessary product of this stage in human social evolution.

From my worldview, the all powerful phantom entity that many on this website seem to believe are pulling the strings of world government, working toward some nefarious unknown goal are nothing more than a product of naivety and uneducated paranoia.

Are there incredibly wealthy individuals who meet behind closed doors to guide national policies in their own best interests?

In my opinion, absolutely.

Is there a global cabal like something out a Nicholas Cage movie or Dan Brown book?

Absolutely not.

I am immediately dismissing the radical viewpoint for what it is, ignorant and unrealistic.

As others have said, I get that some want to tear it all down...and then what's your plan?

The vast majority of the more radical opinions on the matter are kids and young 20 something's acting out their versions of teen angst and idealism, which is a right of passage into adulthood but preaching Anarchy and violent revolution is typically the diatribe of someone who has little clue and even less grasp on what makes a society work.


I cant help but feel those from western first world societies who feel the system is broken, their human rights are being somehow violated and they are somehow getting a raw deal are terribly ignorant about the history of human civilization.

A few facts...

The quality of living and the civil rights afforded to everyone posting in this thread are far superior to anything the human race has enjoyed in its entire history.

Many seem misinformed about the basic meaning of freedom.

The concept of freedom is not the right to do whatever you choose without consequence, the concept of law is one of the most important tenants of civilization.

Freedom in the context of the state is the freedom to stand or fall on your own device, to voice your opinion publically without worry of consequence.

Freedom does not imply a guaranteed standard of living, free education, accessible healthcare or affordable housing. That is the place of elected government which in turn necessitates bureaucracy and all of the negative consequence that come with it.

The average human lifespan has gone from an average of twenty 5000 years ago to an average of thirty 100 years ago and is currently sixtyseven today.

All due to the medical, environmental and nutritional advantages of modern society and the system we have created aka "TPTB"

The global transportation infrastructure has been developed around fossil fuels which is unsustainable and needs to change but goes far beyond most peoples scope of what is required to maintain a global population of 8 billion people.

Everything from the plethora of foodstuffs we all enjoy at the grocery store to basic staple production like rice and grain depends on petroleum fueled machines.

The factories that produced every single item in most peoples homes, the electricity that turns the lights on and makes the communication beyond the room you are in possible, it all depends on that petroleum driven infrastructure.

In time that will change because it has to, but for know the vast majority of the worlds people depend on it. If mechanized commercial agriculture were stopped tomorrow and people were forced to survive by their own devices billions would starve including most posting on this message board and their families.

How many proponents of returning humanity to an self sufficient agrarian life style are willing to sign the immediate death warrants of billions?

The strongest, most deeply rooted primal drives of everyone is self preservation and procreation of the species, we are hard wired and not likely to change anytime soon without radical social conditioning and forced medical treatments, so how many are willing to empower a government to enforce such policies?

Mandating reproduction is contradictory to basic human rights, one needs to look no farther than the current mess with the 1 child policies of China to see the ugly reality of implementing forced population control.

The critical biomass of humans on the planet with our current technologies is estimated by many to be around 10 billion.

A stabilization of population growth with an eventual reduction in world population is the ideal solution but is an impractical fantasy at current human social development.


The idea that returning to a aboriginal culture as an improvement to the world we live in today is a hollywood fantasy.

ATS poster mamabeth beautifully expresses an ideal held by many in this eloquent post romanticizing a way of life that never existed...

( I am using Mamabeth's post as an example for rebuttal because it is well written and typifies the mind set of many with similar beliefs. I have nothing but respect for either her, or any others who are in agreement with her ideals and have no agenda behind the following other than the hope of educating some of the ATS readership with fact)

Originally posted by mamabeth
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

I would like to see the U.S. go back to the way it was before
europe invaded it.People respecting the land,nature and animals.
Killing animals for food and not for sport.Growing your own food
and feeling the earth in your hands as you plant your crops.Drinking
water that is pure and clean from any river,lake or pond.
Women baking bread and cooking real food not something thrown
in a microwave. Making your own clothes and embroidering your
linens.Milking the cows,feeding the livestock and canning food from
your garden.

A great number of species were hunted to extinction by the early Paleoamericans. The bison, deer etc. survived because their populations were able to absorb and adapt to human predation, not so for the american camel, columbian mammoth or first horses (all of the modern horses in the America's were introduced by the europeans in the 1500's).

Killing for sport? Do people count? How about the massive scale of the blood sacrifice of the mesoamerican tribes which was often connected with sport or the territorial aggressions of the plains tribes warrior culture where it was a game for the strong to take what they pleased from the weak and individual status was measured in trophies like human scalps on the medicine pole?

Regarding wildlife, Just last month a Umatilla tribal member here in Oregon caused a bit of an uproar when he was caught shooting a federally protected golden eagle just to pluck its tail feathers in an ages old, time honored Native ceremonial tradition.

Call it what you will but I see no difference in killing something to spiff up your headdress or totem and killing something to spiff up a blank space over your fireplace. They are equally wasteful and disrespectful to the life of the animal.

Growing enough food to sustain your family through the winter without machinery or beasts of burden (remember, the europeans brought them) is miserable,back breaking work. It is also a gamble that without modern irrigation and pesticides you will have any crops to harvest.

Hopefully your water from a river is clean and pure, your taking your chances drinking from a lake and are playing russian roulette drinking from a pond. Modern chlorination and other water purification techniques protect us from with all manner of pathogenic bacteria.

Have you ever baked bread from scratch in your kitchen much less had to pick the weevils out of the grain before grinding the flour to prepare to bake bread that is hard as a stale pretzel because leavening bread with yeast was a european invention?

By making your own clothes you would be tanning hides for buckskin and stitching furs ( is it harmonious with nature kill something just to wear it?). You could embroider animal hyde to your hearts content but linen, i.e. woven fabric of any kind, was brought by the europeans as well.

You wouldn't be milking any cows, feeding any livestock (unless you count dogs as livestock) or canning any food.

Domestic livestock (cows,pigs,wool-bearing sheep, goats) and the idea of raising food animals arrived in the new world with the europeans, the pre-columbian natives did not keep so much as a chicken.

Canning is a modern convenience invented by the europeans. Smoking,drying,pickling and salting were the only options available to anyone prior to the 1800's

The reality is pre-columbian native life was harsh and brutal, and few died from old age. Most met their end through disease,infection, in childbirth and the at the tip of a spear. The average lifespan was 25 years, how many here are willing to trade 40 or 50 years off of their lives?


In conclusion, we simply cannot have it both ways and the truth the world we have now would be an unfathomable paradise for the common man to even our immediate ( 3 or 4 generations past) ancestors. While by no means perfect, one only has to look at our history to see how far we have come to get to where we are.

Many forget the basic fact that humanity model A.D. 2011 is not the end product of social evolution. It takes a little humility, however some need to realize that 500 years from now people will read our history and see us in the same primitive light we use to view our own ancestors lifestyles and cultures of the 1600's.

I think that by looking at the last millennia, over the next millennia society has no choice but to evolve into a single global entity.

Barring a thermonuclear world war, asteroid impact or similar holocaust, I believe that something like the social utopia depicted in the Star Trek universe is our likely fate in the near term of the next few centuries.

The basic rationale being that shortly we will develop cheap sustainable energy and intelligent mechanization freeing humanity from the necessity of waging war to control finite resources and working for survival in turn allowing all of mankind to pursue greater endeavors (such as the evolution to a type 1 civilasation).



Those are my few cents on "TPTB"

sy

Wow Parrot. Well said.

The way I see it is that it doesnt much to understand that a civilization like ours, based entirely on non-renewable resources can and will not last. I'm not just talking oil either, we seem to be forgetting that due entirely to our actions, within the next 50 years we are going to have more species going extinct than in the last 65 million years. 44,000 species currently under threat.

Source:www.telegraph.co.uk...

And lets not forget all the old-growth forest being currently raped and pillaged, for lack of a better term.

To change TPTB, we must change ourselves. It wont be easy but it is absolutely imperative. Call it what you will, but pascifist non violent resistance is what they rely on. Arm yourselves with knowledge, weapons, and care for your fellow species on this planet and not just us humans. Please.
Whoever still reads here, i highly recommend "Endgame vol 1 & 2, by Derrick Jensen" a movie has also been made but is very basic compared to the books, but for the short attention spanned, here you go.

Link: documentaryheaven.com...



Resist.

Great question slayer!! It will certainly take a huge paradigm shift in human nature. A kind of quantum shift in thinking like a new math or something. Nothing can be solved within the current religious and political systems ruling the day now. A seed or outside source. Humans need example to be seen with their own eyes. In our societies we get all our information filtered through some others ego and all their 5 senses. You have me thinking!!

reply to post by SLAYER69


I gave you a star after reading only half of your OP. It is 8:13AM here on the east coast and already I have been entertained and made to laugh. I stopped at the Lemer holding her hand up. I already like the direction your idea is going.
This reminds me of a project we had to do in highschool, way back in the early 1970's , where we had to create our idea of a Utopia including a governmental system for this state.
My ideas for what that is have not changed much since then,(the innocence and great expectations of youth), but my ways of achieving it have changed greatly. It may be a little too early here for me to say what I would do in any kind of understandable manner but I have a thought for my day and I will give attention to it throughout today and will get back to you later.
Thanks and warmest regards,
Karen

Take Away Class Systems, Prohibit Monarchy, Knighthood Orders and Lords etc.
Legalise Marijuana.
Stop Corporate Involvement In Government.
Boycott All Pharmacutical Companies.
Live Off the Land, Not, Mass Factory Produce.
Stop With Fossil Fuels, And Disclose Anti Gravity Already.
Replace Prison With Armed Forces Duty, And Only Go To War. Do Not Invade and Pillage.

Finally, Hang Queen Elizabeth II and Tony Blair, for Treason and War Crimes.
I Ignore Your Point About Not Having Violent Revolution, Because It Is Necessary. Whether You Like It Or Not, Is Your Opinion.

The only way in my eyes to create a perfect world after destroying the global elite (TPTB) would be to create a world without liars.

If there are no secrets and lies, the world would be somewhat.... perfect.

It can not be done in LIFE.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
What do you propose we replace them with and how will society function?

The question is rather irrelevant once you understand how powerful individuals/groups are dislodged from power.

1. By those more powerful (individuals or organised groups) than them. At the moment there is slim possibility of this, since there exists no single organised group with a clear objective and powerful enough to replace them.

2. By adbication/yielding. This not a common phenomenon, but is known to have happened. When a powerful individual/group has met the objectives or believes the objectives are not realistically attainable, they can simply abdicate power or yield it to those seeking it. Again this is unlikely to happen in the present case.

3. By extreme popular discontent even when there is no clear alternative. This is the only possible scenario, if there indeed is an extreme popular discontent as is made out on forums like this. This happens when there is a popular feeling that any likely alternative is better than status quo. When this happens, the likely successor is determined by who is most organised and power hungry amongst those who are not currently in power. Of course it is possible that different groups may gain power in different geograhic territories leading to disintegration of existing political units.

reply to post by akushla99


you want to sell some of that stuff?

Originally posted by Drunkenparrot
Are there incredibly wealthy individuals who meet behind closed doors to guide national policies in their own best interests?
In my opinion, absolutely.
Is there a global cabal like something out a Nicholas Cage movie or Dan Brown book?
Absolutely not.

By Admitting that there is a secret cabal that meet to discuss trying to better their pathetic lives...Then using fiction, as a comparison to peoples fact based knowledge, is Psy-Ops, which other than being more of an attack, than debating your case for why it isnt true, it pretty much contradicts what you're saying anyways.

Originally posted by Drunkenparrot
I cant help but feel those from western first world societies who feel the system is broken, their human rights are being somehow violated and they are somehow getting a raw deal are terribly ignorant about the history of human civilization.
A few facts...
The quality of living and the civil rights afforded to everyone posting in this thread are far superior to anything the human race has enjoyed in its entire history.

So because we feed the dancing bear, and give the circus elephant more water than we did ten-twenty years ago...they should be grateful????

Originally posted by Drunkenparrot
The critical biomass of humans on the planet with our current technologies is estimated by many to be around 10 billion.
A stabilization of population growth with an eventual reduction in world population is the ideal solution but is an impractical fantasy at current human social development.

Sounds like Bill Gates Depopulisation Plan.


All i can say, is i will be weary of you from now on.

Originally posted by mamabeth
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

I would like to see the U.S. go back to the way it was before
europe invaded it.People respecting the land,nature and animals.
Killing animals for food and not for sport.Growing your own food
and feeling the earth in your hands as you plant your crops.Drinking
water that is pure and clean from any river,lake or pond.
Women baking bread and cooking real food not something thrown
in a microwave.Making your own clothes and embroidering your
linens.Milking the cows,feeding the livestock and canning food from
your garden.

Puhlease, most of the people I know and I am an American, go batty if the power goes out for just a few days, some in just a matter of hours. That kind of lifestyle requires a lot of physical labor and hardship that I doubt most Americans or anyone living in the modern world, are willing to experience. What if you happen to live in the desert south west ? Grow cactus ? What if you've made your home in the rockies ? They should become trappers and hunters? This is a step backwards not forwards. It sounds romantic and all but most would fail fast and hard if forced into this kind of existence.
Oh and just for the record, I make my own bread. Not all of my own but a loaf or two a month when I have time and can indulge in waiting on yeast to rise. I also have a garden plot where I grow herbs and veggies but still I do not live off my garden, it is a source for fresh ingredients to add to food I buy at the much loved grocery store down the street. I for one, need a plan where that is still an option.

TPTB? Well, I have to say that I am glad to be part of that... It would suck (and does) being on the other side of the majority.

Many have said it already- there is/will always be a TPTB... it is in our blood. What the issue is what side are you going to be on? Even within the TPTB---there are ones that are manipulated/controlled/ordered etc and they go along. (IMO-that fits most of us).

Have you ever been lost with other people? Looked into their eyes in a moment of need or despiration? The majority of them will stop doing anything to follow/listen to someone in the group that appears to know what they are talking about etc. The majority will flock to that person-mostly out of fear of the unknown.

That is when the leader(s) emerge. That is where the potential for abuse starts-as human nauture takes over.

No one can go at life alone..... for very long. Fact of the matter is that we need each other to survive but we also need someone to lead--it's just the way it is. And if you don't... another aspect will arise that will most likely destroy the group as a much faster rate.

We all are NOT the same... Some are leaders/thinkers/doers. Other (the main group) are followers as they lack the internal drive to take the lead (In most cases).

That being said, circumstances happen that may force the follower types to rise up but even then, they will gravitate towards a person they think can organize. (I think an example would be Lybia- the common man/followers had enough of their TPTB and rose up. But honestly, they wouldn't have been able to over throw the gov't with out the larger TPTB (Nato/US).

reply to post by SLAYER69


[color=cyan]

First, 1 doesn't HATE ANYTHING ITS WEAK ENERGY AND SOUL DAMAGING just to add. Now...

I would say SLAYER69 the type of environment that would better suit the people would be fully transparent. If the money/jobs/market are going to be bad for a few years then keep it real with the people that respect and follow their leads and tell them its gonna be bad for a few years. Instead what is observed is the time comes near and elections are due and all that is seen in these elections is mud slinging and distraction and LIES to convince the masses into following the better SPEAKER. So that better speaker can be elected. Its also been observed in the US version the previous president WILL leave some left over responsibilities or GOALS for the following PRES. to inherit, which can be understood. Where it takes the wrong turn is when the runner up acts like the previous issues can be easily overcame. Acting by presenting all kinds on nontransparent data/info to make the runner up appear as if they can handle it. This is where the GAMES of DECEPTION begin. You got the masses all wound up and upset from the previous PRES. and the new runner up comes in like super pres. "I CAN FIX ANYTHING" This convinces the masses to consider this new elect due to their confidence and somewhat arrogance with the mic..... Now the minds of the masses are looking for THE ANSWER that will fix EVERYTHING so all the runner up has to do is present their HYPOTHETICAL ANSWER??? as best as they can to capture the minds of the masses and THERE IT IS- The minds are convinced the new runner up WILL indeed FIX EVERYTHING and they put their HEARTS and TRUST in the POWER of the VOTES and HOPE for the winner to FIX their land mass issues abroad.

This is why I say FULLY TRANSPARENT. Let them know its gonna be bad for a while and you all may not want to hear what I got to say and if I lose the election at least I kept it real with you all and told the TRUTH instead of sugar coat and lie like I can fix it. Its a RISK but I think the public WILL appreciate this type of approach. the public will observe and say WOW!!! he/she doesn't seem to sugar coat anything it sounds terrible. Why the next voter will say wow he/she TOLD IT LIKE IT IS AND DIDN'T CARE IF IT COST THE ELECTION. I would personally respect that and would feel others may as well. The FULL TRANSPARENCY with the public would lower much of the wasted energy on mudslinging and nonsense debates to try and OUTDO THE OTHER RUNNER UPS.

1 would wish that these LAND MASS CONTROLLERS would/could consider keeping it one hunid% transparent with the people who follow them, but from what's observed the public really doesn't matter until its time to vote.

SO BASICALLY TALK TO THE PUBLIC W/ TRUTH AND STOP LYING ALL THE TIME TO THEM, THAT MAY HELP


NAMASTE*******
LOVE LIGHT ETERNIA

Society means simply a hierarchical system! So it does not matter how you try to form it, a group of rulers will always rule the meek! That is the way it works in nature as well as in a society.

When I see that people try to find some solutions for the benefit of a society, I simply smile at those, because there is nothing you can do for the society unless you grasp its function. In a society TPTB is as same as a proton in an atom. Take out the proton and the atom will diminish into parts and find another proton to assembly itself again. Proton does not move much, and so is the sun... planets, electrons or sheeple move always around the proton (aka TPTB).

Since people have started to learn farming, fishing and astronomy from the ancient gods like Oannes, they have stopped to live like nomads and setteled themselves on the same place and thought that it was a very good idea to crop your own food. They have started to work more than ever for their food and at the time of lack of food they had to steal it from others..... another reason for wars! The tribal way of life gave people more time to live and less time to work for their food. They had to hunt once a week and that was it. They knew not to breed more than they can handle. Babies were born as a replacement for the deads. If a baby was born before it was needed, they simply killed and ate it! Yea, that was the way to survive.

I can feel how the people HATE that TPTB but the problem is not them... the problem is the simple existence of the society and its greedy inhabitants. TPTB is in its nature evil, because that is what people force them to be. So today people need somebody to blame for all that sh*t that happens - there you have then TPTB, happy now!?

You can never establish a stabilized society, it is just impossible because of the way a society operates. The ancient old tribal way is the only known solution which works but is in its nature LIMITED. If you live with more than 20 people you will have trouble to control their overpopulation. Once you lose control on the populations growth, a new society plus a new TPTB will be just inevitable. Any other societal solution being offered are merely different type of communisms and NOT solutions.

Shortly there is no way you can have a better society.... the people out there are like a food and energy sources - and you can see very well that people exploit each other for their OWN BENEFITS! A mother exploits the child for her own future security. Father exploits the wife for his household work and sex needs. Society works in the manner of pimp and whore... week one (prefers or assumes to be) makes all the work and bring it to its PROTECTOR. Therefore the meek do not need to think about any responsability, cause they pay the protector for this job. Protector actually does not protect, he just deceives the stupid cattle by means of higher knowledge. So you terrorize people and blame it on others in order to stay for your cattle as the godly protector. This is the way it works and will be the same forever and ever and ever again!

I read so many comments about this subject and none of them has really a cold blooded perspective to that organism which we call society. Everything what TPTB does is for the societal benefits: be it sterilisation of the men by medics or letting women study more and more and flock to their carrier thing by making them forget their natural functions like having a baby by 20s and not at 30s. All read is just "kill that MF TPTB" and establish a NEW system.

This is the only system you will ever have, so either you coop to live with it with its own rules or just kill yourselves. It really amuses me to read the comments about "how to's" for making a better society, because all that those people think is HERD MIND like in a hive. S/He who understands the way that TPTB operates will find the way out for a better LIFE.

So either the primitive tribal way or the technological and comfortable TPTB way! You choose. There is no purple pill here!

Stop BSing yourself with DREAMS and fantasies like Alice in Wonderland... get back to work to be SELFISH and find the way out only for YOURSELF! Stop thinking like a hive minded sheeple bee and think only for yourselves first.

reply to post by SLAYER69


In my humble opinion, our worst enemies aren't our enemies themselves but those who enable them (the apathetic and ill educated). This the foundation upon which their power is built and maintained. While majority of the western world has the "f*** you Jack, I'm alright" mentality, the PTB can rest peacefully at night knowing the status quo will never change. While we only care for ourselves, or not care at all, we will never be able to coordinate the many to overthrow the few.

So futile are we... the ripples... forever pursued and consumed by the big wave.
- IRM

Once I was sitting at the beach and I observed many tiny ripples washing upon the sand. Inevitably they would be followed and washed away by a bigger wave that consumed them and removed any mark they made upon the sand... and I couldn't help but think how this was an analogy for the way our world works. The differences the tiny few try to make to our world are often cancelled out by the larger, ignorant mass.

I'm not sure how this will ever change. I don't pretend to know the answers but whatever the remedy is, it will have to be holistic. As you mentioned in your Op, one persons morals or belief systems are another persons evils.

I read a book on shamanistic beliefs many years ago and one thing that really grabbed my attention was a concept called the consensus trance. Where people consent to cognitive slumber by allowing themselves to be distracted by the comfort of their mod cons... A similar tact is used on prisoners in jails where they are given televisions, radios, books, kettles and so forth because they are less likely to riot with the distractions in their cells that allow them the illusion of freedom. They are more malleable and likely to consent to their imprisonment.

Our illusion of freedom is constructed in very much the same way with Playstations, LCD TV's, Automobiles, Fashion and dangling carrots such as lifestyle programs and celebrity worship. While people are constantly distracted by this worthless 'stuff', they cannot fathom what prisoners of the system they really are. A system that is rigged to keep them down and in their place. They believe their happy because insidious marketing campaigns on television and magazines tell them that they are. Most people have lost the ability to think or make decisions for themselves. It's much easier to take the path of least resistance, which is to simply consent and run with the pack.

The human race is it's own worst enemy. Not the elite few that have simply cashed in on what majority of people have chosen for themselves.

IRM

reply to post by SLAYER69


If you want to change how society works, you'd have to start by changing how humans THINK. People are savages. civilization is the thinnest of veneers..we're not much different now than we were at the beginning, except we have cooler toys. people still do all manner of evil to each other for all manner of reasons/justifications. Unless we evolve past our fear-based reasons for the evil people do, people will be sitting here 100 years from now chewing on the same topic. change humanity, then societal changes will naturally follow. And I have no idea how to make humanity evolve.

Humans without wisdom are blank machines and you can read any program onto them.

Wise man run from society and deconstruct such a stupid experiment.

Originally posted by DangerDeath
Humans without wisdom are blank machines and you can read any program onto them.

Wise man run from society and deconstruct such a stupid experiment.

Wise men stay out of the society in order to control and exploit it. They become Gods and they make people believe in such BS by producing miracelous situations and holy scripts. As the 90% of the volk believe in Gods in a way they like, makes that system work!