U.S. Government Satellite tech. and the bad day it nearly caused me.

Ok, to start off I am going to intro how this all started. The year was 2003, I was working in a gun warehouse in Lebanon OH. doing graphic advertising. I took pictures of all the guns as they came in, and put them in flyers for the sale ads. Typically we took all pictures in a room with a white background, and flood lights set up to give consistent lighting across the whole gun.
One day my boss calls me up, and says he wants me to take a picture of the new Barret M85 sniper rifle we had just gotten in. I go get the gun, play with it for a bit, and then proceed to the picture room, only to find out it was too big to hang on the wall. After some discussion with my boss, I am told to take the gun outside, with some white rolls of paper, and get the picture taken. It was a very sunny day, so I agreed, and got everything ready.
I take the gun outside, carrying the sniper rifle, and place it on my setup to get ready to take the picture. The sky is perfectly clear, nothing anywhere around, and all seems well. As I am about to take the picture of the gun, I suddenly hear a helicopter, and look up towards the sound. What I see is a white and blue chopper, with 2 guys hanging out either side of the chopper, all 4 dressed like secret service agents, with MP5's in their hands. They are all pointing the guns at me and my co-workers, that were helping with the setup, until one of my older co-workers waves, then slowly and carefully picks up the rifle (barrel down) and carries it back inside.
After returning inside, we have a small meeting about what just happened, and someone remembers. Now ex-President Bush was eating lunch at the Golden Lamb, which is about a mile or so from the gun warehouse. I had nearly gotten myself killed for being a threat to the President of the United States, without even knowing it.

This leads to the reason for this post. Obviously they were watching for threats from the air with the chopper, but the chopper was nowhere in sight when I took the gun outside, and when the chopper headed towards me, it was heading directly towards me, not near me, DIRECTLY TOWARDS ME.... This tells me that we definitely had satellite's watching the area, but as to how fast they were able to route a helicopter to me, was mind blowing. Either they had multiple satellites watching at once, have such high resolution that multiple computers are watching the entire area, or they have a program that picks out areas of interest when something like a gun are spotted. So let's discuss it, what do you think made it so easy for them to get to me so fast?

One tip for everyone though... If you think you can hold a gun within 2 miles of the President in broad daylight and get away with it.... think again! This event nearly cost me my life, definitely the scariest day of my life.

In this image, I am at the * and the President was at the P

change the atsimg /atsimg to just img /img .....Don't forget the square brackets around each tag.

probably not a satellite
the choppers cameras can see what packet of cigarettes you are holding 5km away.

Originally posted by OccamAssassin
change the atsimg /atsimg to just img /img .....Don't forget the square brackets around each tag.

thanks bud, that did the trick

Originally posted by CitizenNum287119327
probably not a satellite
the choppers cameras can see what packet of cigarettes you are holding 5km away.

I wish it were that easy, but as I stated in the OP, there was no chopper anywhere in sight, and the skys were 100% clear, and plenty of visibility for miles in the sky. The chopper appeared over a building coming from the South

reply to post by longtermproject


I think the point he was making is that the chopper can see a distance, quite clearly, well BEYOND what you would have been able to see or hear. Therefore, the chopper saw you way before you saw it. And this is a good thing. It would be rather silly to conduct surveillance in a noisy chopper that everyone could see or hear before approaching it's target, no?

Originally posted by lpowell0627
reply to post by longtermproject

 

I think the point he was making is that the chopper can see a distance, quite clearly, well BEYOND what you would have been able to see or hear. Therefore, the chopper saw you way before you saw it. And this is a good thing. It would be rather silly to conduct surveillance in a noisy chopper that everyone could see or hear before approaching it's target, no?

I guess it is possible that they could have seen me from much further away, but my thought is, the chopper most likely did not have line of sight on me at the time.

Also, even if the chopper did see me, how did it know to look towards me out of all possible directions? I understand the capabilities of the chopper, but even then, the viewing screen for the pilot/navigator would not have been such that he would have been able to pick it up himself and get to me as fast as they did.

The Government via the NRO and NSA have a satellite network that is ultra-high resolution, world-wide. Imagine Google Earth, now imagine it being a completely LIVE feed. They have the ability to zoom down and read the words off a piece of paper you may be reading, all through advanced optics and software. It is all controlled through an intelligent interface driven by a sophisticated AI that can watch for things. In addition to the live surveillance and monitoring capabilities it also saves the data, for years, allowing them to go back to any spot on the globe for a playback or analysis with given parameters.

The imaging data is also quite advanced, where the satellites, utilizing an advanced "infinite lense" array are able to overlap one another to provide other, 3D perspectives of any scene, and to even alter the refraction of the light captured in those images to highlight different aspects of a location. Imagine the bullet scene from the Matrix, and that is essentially what it allows them to do.

Other features include biometric analysis and environmental analysis in addition to full audio reception. These satellites can also see through most structures. If you are their mark and are of interest they can put a 'track' on you where the system will follow and watch and listen. It will also mine all your digital data and collaborate it together in real time to predict your movements and possible threats, flagging it for a real-world analyst if you cross a predefined threshold.

The technology is amazing, and there are literally rooms full of analysts with advanced "optical gear" that interfaces directly into these machines, scanning and reviewing all the information, for hours on end, and sharing it via a digital social-like network with other analysts. Kind of like a borg-hive mind, done incredibly fast so they can take the information, sift through it, and make determinations for forwarding on to the higher-ups for the major decision making.

Originally posted by DJM8507
The Government via the NRO and NSA have a satellite network that is ultra-high resolution, world-wide. Imagine Google Earth, now imagine it being a completely LIVE feed. They have the ability to zoom down and read the words off a piece of paper you may be reading, all through advanced optics and software. It is all controlled through an intelligent interface driven by a sophisticated AI that can watch for things. In addition to the live surveillance and monitoring capabilities it also saves the data, for years, allowing them to go back to any spot on the globe for a playback or analysis with given parameters.

The imaging data is also quite advanced, where the satellites, utilizing an advanced "infinite lense" array are able to overlap one another to provide other, 3D perspectives of any scene, and to even alter the refraction of the light captured in those images to highlight different aspects of a location. Imagine the bullet scene from the Matrix, and that is essentially what it allows them to do.

Other features include biometric analysis and environmental analysis in addition to full audio reception. These satellites can also see through most structures. If you are their mark and are of interest they can put a 'track' on you where the system will follow and watch and listen. It will also mine all your digital data and collaborate it together in real time to predict your movements and possible threats, flagging it for a real-world analyst if you cross a predefined threshold.

The technology is amazing, and there are literally rooms full of analysts with advanced "optical gear" that interfaces directly into these machines, scanning and reviewing all the information, for hours on end, and sharing it via a digital social-like network with other analysts. Kind of like a borg-hive mind, done incredibly fast so they can take the information, sift through it, and make determinations for forwarding on to the higher-ups for the major decision making.

edit on 7-9-2011 by DJM8507 because: (no reason given)

You know this was being used since before 2003? Do you have a source where you get your information? I don't doubt your claims whatsoever, I just would like to read more about it, it sounds fascinating

reply to post by DJM8507


It sounds like you have done some good research on this subject. While I can easily see and understand how satellites can spot people/objects through various optics and software recognition programs I have a hard believing that they can do the same with audio.
What kind of technology would allow this?
How could a satellite "hear"anything since it's not in the atmosphere?

The cameras I've know about since I was a kid - my dad worked on the hi-res cameras they were using back 50 years ago and even then they could do much more than what you saw in the Cuban missile crisis.

The acoustic technology really interests me though, can you point to any resources?
Thanks!

OP:
Great story and thread, totally believable.
I worked in a gun armory too and had the BATF hanging around like flies for months while they checked out inventory and log books.
S&F

== Disclaimer ================

I have no facts or sourced information to add to this discussion.
I offer one possible theoretical idea instead.
Just to increase the number of
possible solutions.

===========================

All the Barret M85's could have gps locators built into them.
When the vector detected shows that one was moving
directly towards the Presidents location, the
chopper was routed to so security could
get eyes on the ground.

Has anyone ever
done an EF scan on a Barret M85
to see if they are putting out an intermittant signal?


David Grouchy

Originally posted by davidgrouchy
== Disclaimer ================

I have no facts or sourced information to add to this discussion.
I offer one possible theoretical idea instead.
Just to increase the number of
possible solutions.

===========================

All the Barret M85's could have gps locators built into them.
When the vector detected shows that one was moving
directly towards the Presidents location, the
chopper was routed to so security could
get eyes on the ground.

Has anyone ever
done an EF scan on a Barret M85
to see if they are putting out an intermittant signal?

David Grouchy

Haha, as crazy as that sounds there is the ever so slight chance that it could be true.... I know we never checked our guns for any kind of tracking chip.... all of our tracking was done with paper. Some of the stuff I have seen come through that warehouse was just plain weird, alot of Nazi rifles with carvings in them, bayonets that still had dried blood on them.... Amazing what people would pay for war memorabilia....

Definitely the most scary thing I have been through, and no reason to lie about it. I knew they weren't going to shoot me as long as I didn't touch the rifle, but it still was really uncomfortable having 4 dudes pointing guns at me from a helicopter. Considering the range capability of the Barrett, and the distance the President was, I don't blame them for what they did, it was probably the proper response. Had we remembered that the President was going to be in town, we wouldn't have considered bringing anything outside that day, I did have nearly 2 weeks to get pictures of it before it went into the flyer.

Originally posted by Asktheanimals
reply to post by DJM8507

 

It sounds like you have done some good research on this subject. While I can easily see and understand how satellites can spot people/objects through various optics and software recognition programs I have a hard believing that they can do the same with audio.
What kind of technology would allow this?
How could a satellite "hear"anything since it's not in the atmosphere?

The cameras I've know about since I was a kid - my dad worked on the hi-res cameras they were using back 50 years ago and even then they could do much more than what you saw in the Cuban missile crisis.

The acoustic technology really interests me though, can you point to any resources?
Thanks!

OP:
Great story and thread, totally believable.
I worked in a gun armory too and had the BATF hanging around like flies for months while they checked out inventory and log books.
S&F

Ah yes, the BATF.... I'm really glad that they never had to bother me for anything... Now my bosses would pull their hair out those weeks.... I remember a time when we accidentally had received a fully automatic AK-47, and shipped it to California Luckily for us, the FFL holder test fired the gun before selling it, and quickly sent it back to us so we could return it to the vendor we bought from in Russia....

reply to post by Asktheanimals


The audio is a bit of a dubious claim, as are the "AI" claims (though some people classify antilock brakes as an AI program because they don't understand the intelligence qualifier... but I digress).

In theory, this is possible by detecting the slight diffraction in the air caused by permeating sound waves, or using another reference media - such as a pane of glass. I doubt the practicality of doing this from orbit. About the best we can do are some very sophisticated systems that allow a laser to be bounced off of a window and the frequency modulation caused by the vibrating glass used to generate an audio profile (that would then have to be filtered, most likely, of background noise). And even that would have its limitations - human voices are only so powerful by comparison to the roar of the world around them. Eventually it all gets lost in noise.

As for seeing through buildings... that is a bit of a stretch. There are multiple interpretations involved, here, but none are as ominous as the idea first sounds. The first methods use radio and radar backscatter processing to generate a map that would look similar to an MRI scan of the body - denser materials like metals being more defined than their softer diamagnetic counterparts such as wood and glass. This takes a lot of 'exposures' over a very long time with a lot of data processing. It's really only theoretical (as I've never heard of this being used - but I know we can do it, it's simply a computer-aided modification) - but well within our technological capability if someone wanted to do it. Its use, however, would be limited mostly to espionage of industrial buildings (determining what is in them) or for gathering data about the internal layout of buildings (within a certain degree - more fortified buildings will prove more difficult).

Similar types of processing can be applied to Infra-red scans done of buildings, leading to a 'peek' at what may be inside that gives off heat. Again - this is a time consuming process, and is really only practical for use in estimating industrial capacity or some related things. It's not a real-time sort of thing, and it's not really all that useful aside from pointing out what areas are warmer than others.

Originally posted by Aim64C
reply to post by Asktheanimals

 

The audio is a bit of a dubious claim, as are the "AI" claims (though some people classify antilock brakes as an AI program because they don't understand the intelligence qualifier... but I digress).

In theory, this is possible by detecting the slight diffraction in the air caused by permeating sound waves, or using another reference media - such as a pane of glass. I doubt the practicality of doing this from orbit. About the best we can do are some very sophisticated systems that allow a laser to be bounced off of a window and the frequency modulation caused by the vibrating glass used to generate an audio profile (that would then have to be filtered, most likely, of background noise). And even that would have its limitations - human voices are only so powerful by comparison to the roar of the world around them. Eventually it all gets lost in noise.

Exactly. Goodbye signal to noise ratio!

There has to be some truth to the AI side of the satellite discovery. There is no way that they had enough people watching with enough satellites to check every piece of ground at every moment. Having an AI that can look for distinctive objects (black rifle on white background sticks out in my mind) makes more sense, because it could be doing recognition checks on close scale while humans analyze potential issues. Audio wouldn't really make too much sense from space.... and we weren't really talking much about guns, or ammo or anything like that. When you work in a gun warehouse you typically get pretty tired of them really fast, and try to talk about other things. Usually talk consisted of the local sports teams, beer, women, etc. So I don't think thats how we were found so fast. It would be interesting to find out if the Secret Service actually filed a report on this, which I would think they had to, in case something did happen in the future. Is there somewhere that I can actually look this up? I highly doubt they would disclose how they were able to track so fast, but at least seeing what they said about the situation would be awesome.

reply to post by longtermproject

There has to be some truth to the AI side of the satellite discovery. There is no way that they had enough people watching with enough satellites to check every piece of ground at every moment. Having an AI that can look for distinctive objects (black rifle on white background sticks out in my mind) makes more sense, because it could be doing recognition checks on close scale while humans analyze potential issues.

www.popsci.com...

Object recognition is nothing new. A lot of cameras these days have face-recognition software that attempt to 'track' and focus on the face of a person in your viewfinder (though I have yet to see any real difference between pictures taken with that enabled and those taken like any other picture...).

The interesting issue, here, is that satellites, while powerful, have limited resolution. Sure - they can zoom in and read a postage stamp with 60s technology, but it comes at the price of aperture. You don't get to read postage stamps on the sidewalk -and- catch the girls skinny-dipping in their backyard pool.

The other issue is the nature of spy satellites - they orbit. They aren't exactly the best for security purposes, as their useable time-over-target is very narrow. Attempting to schedule the President to also have satellite coverage of his appearance is simply not practical.

There are two more likely scenarios - on-ground observers, and the involvement of a UAV (much better for these types of things than a satellite - and much less expensive with better imaging technology than the majority of our spy satellites).

A third, less-likely scenario, involves "NiRTS Sat" - a concept I first encountered in Dale Brown's series of novels "Dreamland." Essentially, it's a small satellite launched from a large air-deployed rocket (vastly reducing the necessary size of the rocket) - the lifespan of the satellite is short, as it only achieves a very low orbit... but it provides the nearly invulnerable advantages of satellites with the station-keeping and deployability of UAVs and larger recon aircraft.

Again - a lot to go through for the President. We've got better stuff to use that technology on (and, while I'm no fan of Lolbama, that is not meant as a smear against him... We have a vice president and a line of succession for a reason).

I'd likely buy the UAV story before anything else, back in 2003 I didn't know anything about UAV's nor did the majority of Americans. The gov't most certainly did have something at that point, whether or not they used it, I don't know, but it seems plausible

reply to post by longtermproject

Not a satellite, but there might have been an air-breather orbiting the area. Having a lot of firearms, you might have been an area of interest. I don't know if the Secret Service maintains coverage like that, or who they get to do it, but you might not notice a small single-sensor platform. That's a lot of mights, but all I can offer is slightly-informed speculation.

The more prosaic explanation is that they had people or unmanned sensors on the ground pointed at your business, or an asset inside.

I doubt they had anyone inside working for them, because I was the newest member of the team, and I had been there over a year. I wish I would have thought to look up to see if there was anything in the visible area. The building the Pres was in was not in my LOS, he did have S.S. watching from the roof, but we couldnt even see that.

Originally posted by longtermproject

This leads to the reason for this post. Obviously they were watching for threats from the air with the chopper, but the chopper was nowhere in sight when I took the gun outside, and when the chopper headed towards me, it was heading directly towards me, not near me, DIRECTLY TOWARDS ME.... This tells me that we definitely had satellite's watching the area, but as to how fast they were able to route a helicopter to me, was mind blowing. Either they had multiple satellites watching at once, have such high resolution that multiple computers are watching the entire area, or they have a program that picks out areas of interest when something like a gun are spotted. So let's discuss it, what do you think made it so easy for them to get to me so fast?

I have no inside information, just general experience with engineering & technology.

There was likely a satellite, or maybe more likely, a drone which you didn't hear/see over the general area of the President. There are image recognition programs designed to look at "items of interest". This is obviously important in places like Afghanistan. Likely the software detected a combination of things like "long metal tube" (especially if the multi-spectral stuff said "steel") which was not affixed to the ground (i.e. it moved over a few frames), and especially if accompanied by a group of moving heads. This is probably automatic, delivering a "suspicion score". If the score is over a threshold, the frames get routed to a human analyst who understands the context and he calls operations with the coordinates if there's an issue.

Yeah, be glad you didn't pick the weapon up the wrong way, or put in the back of a truck and drive off (your engine block would get all its gaskets blown due to hellfire missile).

Haiti,1995; Operation Restore Hope. We tested some sweet real time footage that let us obtain our objectives without incident. Coulda been the Blackbird or a satelite.