Soldiers Speaking Out

wow! the video left me speechless. hopefully we can bring the troops home before its too late

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by ThePublicEnemyNo1

Now my 22 year old nephew is in some kind of Special Forces for the Air Force (he won't talk to any of us about it...he just keeps saying you guys woudn't understand)....dam

They snatched him out of MIT and completely tricked him...I think he's been completely brainwashed.

Probably a CCT. The Air Force is sort of light on SpecOps, so the field is limited. I can't blame him for not talking bout what he does, OPSEC aside. I don't tell my family much about what I've done, either. A very few of my friends know, but not even most of them. I will not be condemned for the things I've done by the very people who still breathe because of it.

Some are no longer breathing because I was a day late and a dollar short, and that bothers me much more than what I've done to keep the living alive.

Your nephew, for all his youth, IS RIGHT. You guys wouldn't understand. Your assumption that he is "brainwashed" is glaring proof of that. Meanwhile, you sleep the peaceful slumber of the protected while simultaneously denigrating the protectors.

Typical - it's not limited just to you.

Wow...really, because I have voiced my opinion about wars...now I am being accused of denigrating the protectors

Listen, I think for myself okay and while you and every soldier have risked your lives for our freedoms which I do appreciate, please don't disrespect me by basically calling me ignorant without using that exact word. BTW, you really have no idea how I sleep at night nor what my worries, life or concerns are, nor do you know what I face day to day. I'm sure the feeling is mutual.

I do not think the OP's intent is to insult any soldier...I know that's not what my comment/post was about nor could it be remotely misconstrued as such. BTW, I like how you just selected a snippet of my post and left out the rest...but whatever

It's not fair for you to assume that because some people are against wars that we must be ungrateful or lack some greater understanding. I do remember writing previously on my post that my father was a Vietnam Vet/Green Beret...so for you to even take that stance with someone like me raised by someone like my father, is just an insult. Nothing for me to get all bent out of shape about however....just my interpretation of your comment to my post. If I misinterpreted your comment, in advance...my apology.

If somehow any Vet or soldier here in this thread is insulted by what I posted in its entirety(not just what you chose to select as a quote) I apologize. But, I will not apologize ever for being against Wars. It's not you I'm against, it's those that put you in harms way due to greed and lies. That's it.


ETA

Some are no longer breathing because I was a day late and a dollar short, and that bothers me much more than what I've done to keep the living alive.

I am truly sorry for your loss...I really don't know what else to say. It's a life you choose however...and I say that with all due respect

BTW, could you tell me what a CCT is...I'm clueless. Also, if you care to listen to this Recording this is what upsets me. If this is true then we're in Big Trouble. I pulled the recording from this thread: Secret Recordings

Wow, I'm absolutely blown away by that video. It was probably the best anti-war video I've ever seen and it made me really happy to see it concluded with joe rogan being his logical self. Great Video

Originally posted by ThePublicEnemyNo1

Wow...really, because I have voiced my opinion about wars...now I am being accused of denigrating the protectors

NO.

You are entitled to your opinion about "the wars". I myself have always been against the Iraq war and the Libya War as both being ill-advised.

You denigrate the protectors by referring to them as "brainwashed" while at the same time having NO understanding of what they do, or why they do it. That is NOT an "opinion on 'the wars' ", it's a judgement of the warriors, and unwarranted at that.

Listen, I think for myself okay and while you and every soldier have risked your lives for our freedoms which I do appreciate, please don't disrespect me by basically calling me ignorant without using that exact word. BTW, you really have no idea how I sleep at night nor what my worries, life or concerns are, nor do you know what I face day to day. I'm sure the feeling is mutual.

I'm not a soldier, and never have been. I'm far worse - a "contractor". This means I get to pick my "enemies" rather than having them picked for me, and so bear more of the responsibility for my own actions. In the eyes of many, probably most, that makes me a lot worse. I've done what I've done out of conscience, not orders. No, I didn't call you "ignorant", nor did I mean to, although it may fit. "Ignorance" is not "stupidity", and can be cured. It's not a put down, it just means uniformed. You yourself admit that your nephew won't talk about it - for good reason I would think - which makes you "uninformed" in the matter, then proceed to make the determination that he is "brainwashed" on no information. That sort of attitude will never get the information out of him, but I suspect that's not your main goal any how.

You are correct, I have no idea how well you sleep at night, and so retract that statement. For all I know, you may be expecting boogie men to break in at any instant. I stand corrected. I sleep well enough, if lightly, thanks for asking.

It's not fair for you to assume that because some people are against wars that we must be ungrateful or lack some greater understanding. I do remember writing previously on my post that my father was a Vietnam Vet/Green Beret...so for you to even take that stance with someone like me raised by someone like my father, is just an insult. Nothing for me to get all bent out of shape about however....just my interpretation of your comment to my post. If I misinterpreted your comment, in advance...my apology.

I'm not against people who are "against wars". Most of the soldiers I have known are not particularly keen on dying in one, but they do what they have to. I don't think that many are as against "the wars" as those who have to fight them up close and in person, and have to see all that dying first hand rather than on YouTube. Your own dad is a case in point, with his pronouncement that "war isn't the answer", but he still did what needed to be done. Whether Vietnam was a "necessary war" or just a political one is up for debate - the war itself, that is - but not the motivations of the individuals who fought it.

The fact remains that some wars are "necessary", most are not, and lumping them all into a single category does a disservice to all people - not just the protectors, but the protected as well. As I said above, in my opinion. both Iraq and Libya are boneheaded, misguided, ill advised, and most importantly unnecessary wars. Afghanistan is not, although it has been grossly mishandled. Lumping them together as "the wars" does a disservice. In the case of NONE of them are the soldiers to blame, nor are they due any judgements such as "brainwashed". As has been said, "the soldiers fight, but the kings are heroes". Likewise, the soldiers do the fighting, but the kings are the villains if that's the way it shakes out.

If somehow any Vet or soldier here in this thread is insulted by what I posted in its entirety(not just what you chose to select as a quote) I apologize. But, I will not apologize ever for being against Wars. It's not you I'm against, it's those that put you in harms way due to greed and lies. That's it.

Agreed, with the singular exception of lumping them all together as "the wars". An anti-war stance such as yours doesn't offend me, but classing the soldiers as "brainwashed" does. That is precisely the reason I picked that part of your post to comment on - THAT is the part that offends me.

For some reason ATS is limiting my reply, so I'll address your addition in another post.

Originally posted by ThePublicEnemyNo1

ETA

Some are no longer breathing because I was a day late and a dollar short, and that bothers me much more than what I've done to keep the living alive.

I am truly sorry for your loss...I really don't know what else to say. It's a life you choose however...and I say that with all due respect

No problem. It was a long time ago and a long way from here. "Foreigners" they were. Most would have died whether I was there or not. My fault for getting close.

BTW, could you tell me what a CCT is...I'm clueless.

Combat Control Team, or "Combat Controllers". They go in in small teams and set up temporary airfields and secure them, drop behind enemy lines upon occasion, and work closely with other SpecOps groups, dropping in with them to give a more direct line to Air Force assets to call in air strikes, air support, and such.

My son is leaning towards that, but he's going in with both eyes open - at least as far as I can open them. I just about had him talked out of it at one point...

reply to post by nenothtu

"Humanity"? I have none.

I am a cold blooded killer. I kill folks who desperately need it.

One day I too will die because of that.

BUT - a lot of folks are now living, and will continue to live, because of it.

If you don't like that, don't be a threat to me or mine.

The video clearly shows soldiers who are against this type of behavior by our soldiers. They are clearly defining these so called "threats" as regular human beings pissed off that their homes have been bombed and family members killed. May I ask why you are a cold blooded killer? Is it honestly necessary to intimidate on an ATS thread?

Your nephew, for all his youth, IS RIGHT. You guys wouldn't understand. Your assumption that he is "brainwashed" is glaring proof of that. Meanwhile, you sleep the peaceful slumber of the protected while simultaneously denigrating the protectors.

Typical - it's not limited just to you.

This is the "typical" response given by most people in the know. And it's not that some soldiers can be brainwashed like soldiers being doped, it's more like the fact that they are standing up for corporate/profitable interests instead of the Constitution. But back to your typical response of we, wouldn't understand, that is like parents telling their kids they cannot do something just because. Seriously this is the most lame duck excuse ever. Please inform me and this audience of what enemy your protecting us daily from.

No WMD in Iraq?

Afghanistan? - My buddies over there share pictures on Facebook and in 90% of the photos you can see poppy fields.

Libya? - Throw a stone in the "recent posts" section and your bound to find a thread that has countless numbers of posts describing that fiasco.

Now if your referring to special ops, seals, or other missions that the US population doesn't even know about, then don't you think this threat should be mentioned? Don't you think more people would join the ranks if we knew their was an actual threat at our doorstep? I await your response, and hopefully it is filled with more than you just simply won't understand, because trust me, many of us have tried to for many years. Simply hard to trust when you ask your representatives for the Truth, and they just simply will not give it to US.

Originally posted by nenothtu

I'm not a soldier, and never have been. I'm far worse - a "contractor". This means I get to pick my "enemies" rather than having them picked for me, and so bear more of the responsibility for my own actions. In the eyes of many, probably most, that makes me a lot worse.

So please explain to me how you are protecting US? The goal of every employee within a corporation is to add value to the corporation, and if regulated by your own individual conscious, could be seen as ethical or not. See here's the problem. You speak as if your an American soldier fighting for the people of America, then go onto explain that you actually get to choose who your enemies are. Don't you find this somewhat bothersome? So much for the chain of command, protecting our liberties, or representing America, your honestly a cold blooded killer, but then again, you already admitted that. With that said, kind regards sir, look forward to your answers.

Originally posted by higns07

The video clearly shows soldiers who are against this type of behavior by our soldiers. They are clearly defining these so called "threats" as regular human beings pissed off that their homes have been bombed and family members killed.

You make it sound like that's the only thing that goes on in war, where in all reality it's a vanishingly small minority of the action, and generally dealt with by our own. You don't waste expensive bombs just for the hell of it.

May I ask why you are a cold blooded killer?

Because that is exactly what is called for at times.

Is it honestly necessary to intimidate on an ATS thread?

A statement of fact is not "intimidation", it just is what it is. I have not directed that at any ATS member, nor have I ever found any reason to. It's merely a simple statement of fact, or you could consider it an indictment of myself if you prefer. makes no difference to me.

Your nephew, for all his youth, IS RIGHT. You guys wouldn't understand. Your assumption that he is "brainwashed" is glaring proof of that. Meanwhile, you sleep the peaceful slumber of the protected while simultaneously denigrating the protectors.

Typical - it's not limited just to you.

This is the "typical" response given by most people in the know. And it's not that some soldiers can be brainwashed like soldiers being doped, it's more like the fact that they are standing up for corporate/profitable interests instead of the Constitution. But back to your typical response of we, wouldn't understand, that is like parents telling their kids they cannot do something just because. Seriously this is the most lame duck excuse ever. Please inform me and this audience of what enemy your protecting us daily from.

You specifically? None. Just so you'll know, the first job I ever had overseas of that nature was for a corporation - a Canadian one. I didn't do it for them either, they were just the vehicle that got me there, and our interests in the fight more or less coincided. A "common enemy" if you will. Call me "brainwashed" if you like - changing the label doesn't change the contents, and I know EXACTLY why I've done what I've done. No thanks required or requested. I've already gotten my paychecks, long ago, and the retirement plan sucks.

No WMD in Iraq?

What killed those 5000 Kurds then?

Afghanistan? - My buddies over there share pictures on Facebook and in 90% of the photos you can see poppy fields.

And your point is? I have a photo of a funeral in Afghanistan with pot growing right in it. So what? Stuff grows, some folks cultivate it to make it grow better. neither has a bearing on a war, with the possible exception of the current Mexican events, but even that is debatable.

Libya? - Throw a stone in the "recent posts" section and your bound to find a thread that has countless numbers of posts describing that fiasco.

Throw your stones harder. I was against that debacle from my very first post on the subject, back in March or so. and I called it like it has turned out, and have further predictions in the matter. it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that was a no-go, and will only get worse.

Now if your referring to special ops, seals, or other missions that the US population doesn't even know about, then don't you think this threat should be mentioned?

No.

Don't you think more people would join the ranks if we knew their was an actual threat at our doorstep?

No.

Too many people in those ranks will completely render them useless. Some people, the majority, are completely unsuitable for war (don't get me wrong - I think that is a good thing). Your video probably bears that out. Those people should never have been placed in that situation to begin with, much less in a SpecOps capacity.

I await your response, and hopefully it is filled with more than you just simply won't understand, because trust me, many of us have tried to for many years. Simply hard to trust when you ask your representatives for the Truth, and they just simply will not give it to US.

You won't understand, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. You especially won't understand my own history, but that's ok - I neither ask for understanding nor expect it. That's probably why I'm not married, eh? If I want to be accepted, I'll buy a dog. What I DO expect is more on the behalf of others - that people not impute motivations on others that they know nothing of. Just realize that neither you nor I can be inside their minds, and what you call "brainwashed" they may have a perfectly logical reason for that doesn't involve psychological manipulations that make them less than human, just because you don't understand or agree with those motivations.

Originally posted by higns07

So please explain to me how you are protecting US? The goal of every employee within a corporation is to add value to the corporation, and if regulated by your own individual conscious, could be seen as ethical or not.

True enough, which is why "contractors" are not "employees". I don't give a rat's ass about the "value" of a corporation, I just do what I'm contracted to do, and get to choose whether or not to accept a contract based upon my own convictions. For example, I was approached by a corporation for a contract in Iraq, subcontracted to the US Government. I turned it down, although the money was phenomenal (160k/yr for grunts, 240k/yr for "supervisors"), since no one in Iraq was my enemy, and I thought that war was a clustered-flock to begin with. Should have never happened when or how it did, but I'll be damned if I'll denigrate any soldier for answering the call of his own conscience in the matter. I made my call, and "he" (in the generic sense) made his.

See here's the problem. You speak as if your an American soldier fighting for the people of America, then go onto explain that you actually get to choose who your enemies are. Don't you find this somewhat bothersome?

No.

I'm capable of independent thought, and able to determine who I see as a threat to "America" in general, but more specifically my family and friends. the rest of you are just along for the ride. You get the same benefits they do, just because those benefits exist - not because I did it for "you".

I'm "an American", and a "soldier" in a sense. but I'm not an "American Soldier", if you grasp the distinction.

So much for the chain of command, protecting our liberties, or representing America, your honestly a cold blooded killer, but then again, you already admitted that. With that said, kind regards sir, look forward to your answers.

As to the "chain of command", "representing America", and "cold blooded killer" - yes. Perhaps I was wrong, and you would understand.

As to "protecting your liberties", I might differ from your opinion on that. I have never fought to enslave you, nor will I. As a matter of fact, some of what I've done has directly resulted in the reduction of threats, but unfortunately there are always more right around the corner. Right now, the most dire threats are twofold - spread out in cells across the world (those don't require or respond to massive force, which is why wrt the "global war on terror" they're doing it wrong), and right here at home. Hint: I don't go overseas any more, and ain't going to.

reply to post by nenothtu


Enjoyed your replies. Give you much support for staying strong in your convictions and knowing who you are, simply disagree with what you say. Perceptions of life are different, understandable, a lot of variety here. With that said, back to the subject on hand, that was a great montage, no?

reply to post by higns07


To be honest, I couldn't watch the video - due to security reasons flash has been disabled on this machine, and I have to jump through hoops to enable it and then re-disable it, so that's something I rarely do. I had to take my cues from what other respondents were saying regarding the video, and was more responding to their posts than to the vid.

I'm sure that if these gents are against the war, they have their reasons, just as I do, although the two sets of reasons may not precisely coincide. My main gripe was with lumping all the wars together, and with the insinuation that soldiers are somehow "brainwashed" or in some unfathomable way not aware of why they do what they do. The implication is that they are psychologically damaged, manipulated and less than human because of that - they are in effect being called "automatons", which is something less than fully human. I have to differ with that assessment. One may not agree with their reasons, but they have them, and are not "brainwashed" merely for being of a different opinion, any more than the individuals posting that assessment are "brainwashed".

I can understand the rationale for lumping the wars together as if they were all one, since the government itself has fostered that notion by including them all under the "global war on terror" umbrella. I just disagree with that rationale, and sharply delineate between the 3 currently open wars. I'm not alone in making that distinction. I have a friend (a former Special Forces trooper) who has been on 3 contractual deployments to Afghanistan in the current war cycle, and one deployment to Iraq (the same contract I was approached on). the Iraq deployment was for a 1 year contract, but he broke it and came home after 2 months, quitting in disgust. After hearing what he said about it (no "atrocities", just mega-mismanagement by the government) I was glad I didn't go on that one, money be damned. He makes a sharp distinction among them too, as do others.

The Libyan debacle, in my opinion, is entirely different from the other two as well. It was and is absolutely unnecessary and ill-advised, and is nothing more than meddling in the internal affairs of another country, always a bad business on a national level. NO good can come of it, and much harm. Same for the Egyptian civil war. although we had less "direct" traceable involvement there. Most ot the US involvement there was through the proxy of labor unions like the AFL-CIO, who had a heavy hand there. In the end, and we are just beginning to see it now, they will NOT get what they expected to in Egypt, and the same will happen in Libya. Weighing in on the Syrian civil war is also a bad idea at a national level, but there have been rumblings, especially from State, lately doing just that.

As a matter of fact, doing ANYTHING, choosing any side, in this so-called "Arab Spring" is going to turn out poorly for the US. They will NEVER "install democracy" (in the western sense of "democracy") there. Better to just leave it be and let them sort out their own worlds.

So you see, I'm against some of "the wars" too, but likely for different reasons than most here.

Wow this video really has changed my view on some things. Thank you OP for thr post. S&F on this one

reply to post by nenothtu


Understandable, if you have the opportunity to watch this video on another machine, I encourage you to do so. The video itself was about Iraq veterans and speaking out against the Iraq war. Now on ATS, some people like to generalize, hence the outpouring of posts speaking on the war(s) as if they are one, which some could be meaning the War on Terror.

Once again, I give you credit for speaking about Iraq and Libya, and even the other countries' affairs when dealing with the Middle East. From my short time on this planet, I cannot help but look at the destruction our species tends to have, throughout history even. Therefore, seldom do I ever entertain the idea of war. Just 5 years ago this was a different story. Went through the preliminary process at the Naval Academy, and in the meeting for your nomination they ask you if you could kill somebody. Question was out of the blue, literally did not think about for one second, and I immediately said No. And of course that's something they don't want to necessarily hear. That's when I started taking a closer look into my feelings on the whole military complex. Started diving into history, wars, conspiracies, and so forth.

Remember now, seldom do I entertain the idea of war, for example, the Revolutionary War is something I give full support to. See there are wars I would entertain and that is for full fledged Freedom. Sadly our freedoms have been stripped overtime and a veil (more like a TV screen) has been placed in front of our eyes on what freedom really entails. Freedom to most Americans is having representatives, governmental practices, laws that tell you what you can and cannot do, agencies, law enforcement, the whole nine yards if you will. Today there are more government employees than private employees, and I find this alarming. Freedom is a very young notion for not only the United States, but to the world even. Something being younger than 300 years old is a fresh idea still shaping form, especially for a species that has been here for incredibly longer.

Now I could speak all day about that subject, but I really don't want to derail this thread, although I think it's coming to its close. I've enjoyed speaking to you, and hope to find/read your ideas on other threads. Thanks again, enjoy.

reply to post by nenothtu


Well...yeah, I guess ignorant to a degree would be accepted and deserving. I know you weren't saying I was stupid (although the thought may have occurred to you ) I know the definition of ignorant as well.

As for my comment about being brainwashed, I never lumped nor did I ever refer to any other person as such but my nephew. I said it seems as if he "Nephew" had been brainwashed. I'm sure that if you go back to that post, you'll see it. As a matter of fact, you re-posted it. I never leaned towards lumping all military personnel as such. Since I have known my nephew since birth and we are very close by the way, I saw his entire demeanor change within weeks after he began his Special Ops training. Totally different person...so for me, yes it seems as if he had been brainwashed. Besides, it's no secret the Military does this...you really couldn't make me believe otherwise. Maybe he wasn't...I don't know, but it sure seems like it.

I'll just end this by saying...it is honorable what our soldiers and officers do. Really I feel as if I'm not using the proper word to define their courageous choice of occupation. I just disagree with you about some wars being Necessary. In my opinion no war since WWII has been Necessary and many but not all of the wars prior to WWII were necessary...just my opinion. Necessary is a very Big word and using it in this case makes it a dangerous word as well.

Your opinion is appreciated and for sharing a little of what you do...thank you. Although we disagree on somethings...other comments you have made, were spot on.

Originally posted by nenothtu
The implication is that they are psychologically damaged, manipulated and less than human because of that - they are in effect being called "automatons", which is something less than fully human.

Not that you're psychologically damaged. Just that you're fed BS by the government to a greater degree than civilians, which you then believe. Also that there's a lot of information which the government doesn't tell you, which civilians tend to be a lot more willing to try and find out on our own. Military have a deeply disturbing tendency to trust the government's word.

Our impression of soldiers as a group, is that there are far too many of you who think that the government needs to be rhetorically/ideologically defended at any cost; when from the civilian perspective, soldiers are probably being abused in the current scenario more than virtually anyone else. It seems very much to us as though no matter how badly the government treats you, you line up obediently for more; and that you then attack *us* when, because some of us are your relatives, we are concerned about how much the government is shafting you, and actually try and point it out to you.

I've heard recently about soldiers getting virtually non-existent vet benefits, in America. There are also cases of soldiers with severe PTSD, being redeployed; sometimes multiple times. The government is treating you like entirely disposable garbage. Some of us are upset by that, and we're not as willing as you seem to be to accept it. Is it supporting the troops, to simply shut up and obediently wave flags, but then let the government throw you on the scrap heap, (and often, quite literally out into the street) when you get home?

After hearing what he said about it (no "atrocities", just mega-mismanagement by the government) I was glad I didn't go on that one, money be damned. He makes a sharp distinction among them too, as do others.

Well, yeah. Afghanistan at least is where Al Qaeda (who as a group, I honestly have difficulty believing truly exists, to be honest; but that's another rant) were more genuinely supposed to be. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, and so that has always come across a lot more as a simple case of, "let's go and murder the ragheads and get the oil."

Originally posted by petrus4

Originally posted by nenothtu
The implication is that they are psychologically damaged, manipulated and less than human because of that - they are in effect being called "automatons", which is something less than fully human.

Not that you're psychologically damaged. Just that you're fed BS by the government to a greater degree than civilians, which you then believe. Also that there's a lot of information which the government doesn't tell you, which civilians tend to be a lot more willing to try and find out on our own. Military have a deeply disturbing tendency to trust the government's word.

Our impression of soldiers as a group, is that there are far too many of you who think that the government needs to be rhetorically/ideologically defended at any cost; when from the civilian perspective, soldiers are probably being abused in the current scenario more than virtually anyone else. It seems very much to us as though no matter how badly the government treats you, you line up obediently for more; and that you then attack *us* when, because some of us are your relatives, we are concerned about how much the government is shafting you, and actually try and point it out to you.

I've heard recently about soldiers getting virtually non-existent vet benefits, in America. There are also cases of soldiers with severe PTSD, being redeployed; sometimes multiple times. The government is treating you like entirely disposable garbage. Some of us are upset by that, and we're not as willing as you seem to be to accept it. Is it supporting the troops, to simply shut up and obediently wave flags, but then let the government throw you on the scrap heap, (and often, quite literally out into the street) when you get home?

After hearing what he said about it (no "atrocities", just mega-mismanagement by the government) I was glad I didn't go on that one, money be damned. He makes a sharp distinction among them too, as do others.

Well, yeah. Afghanistan at least is where Al Qaeda (who as a group, I honestly have difficulty believing truly exists, to be honest; but that's another rant) were more genuinely supposed to be. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, and so that has always come across a lot more as a simple case of, "let's go and murder the ragheads and get the oil."

I agree with some of what you said. Well written
You know what's chilling IMO? The thought of being an active soldier in Iraq and suddenly having a serious change of heart with like a year left...or any amount of time for that matter

Could you imagine?

reply to post by higns07


and

reply to post by ThePublicEnemyNo1


Thank you gents for the civil discussion. You hung in there through the rough and tumble to get to the civil discussion, and that is to be commended.

For ThePublicEnemyNo1, I can't say one way or the other concerning your nephew. You are there, I am not, and you've known him all his days. I don't know even if he's been deployed yet or not, and that can make all the difference. If he has, then that can go a long way to explaining a change in demeanor - some things, once seen, can never be UNseen, and that will change a fella. If not, well, newly minted soldiers and newly minted cops are both pretty gung-ho, and that could be a factor that will only mellow with age and experience. I don't know - I'm not there, and you are. Give him time, and perhaps with time and a bit of understanding, rather than the condemnation he expects, he'll open up a bit. This is why most vets won't talk about their experiences to civilians - they expect, and too often get, the condemnation. No one - well, hardly anyone - wants their own families to see them as a "monster", and soldiers are conditioned to expect that from what they see and hear in the big bad world of civilians. I've yet to meet one that won't talk yer ear off amongst his "own kind", since they are less likely to be judgmental about it, and have a different perspective.

I normally don't fool with YouTube videos, but I'll make an exception this time, and while the machine is open, I'll go back and watch the opening video. This one, although probably not written to fill that slot, does a fair job of summing up they way many vets feel, for a variety of reasons, and right or wrong:



It's not perhaps so much that "they did this for you - it's your fault" as much as it is the reception they get that makes them feel that way. Civilians in general, not you specifically, "make them monsters" by looking cockeyed at them, as if the change has made them less than they were. They're not less - just different than they were.

I was 22 years old the first time I was called a "murderer" by a snot-nosed, wet-behind-the-ears kid who had not a clue what he was talking about, only knew what he read in the papers, and took it for gospel. Yup.papers. It was long before the internet. That, too, is one of those things that once seen can never be UNseen. Oddly, it was one of my best friends, a far to the left peacenik, who intervened and kept me from giving the punk-ass kid a practical demonstration in how pain works. I was young and excitable then. I've mellowed with age, and had mellowed quite a bit by the time that my second wife used the same epithet to try to get under my skin and just win an argument. I didn't react to it then, but shortly thereafter she was an ex.

No one needs that, not even me.

reply to post by petrus4


You perhaps misunderstood me. I'm not speaking on my own behalf - there is little doubt in my mind that I AM psychologically damaged, in several ways. I was speaking on behalf of soldiers who are presumed to be "brainwashed". I left myself open to the damages, so it's no one's fault but mine - but they were not incurred as a result of any sort of governmental tampering or indoctrination, just things I've seen that I wouldn't have believed if someone else had told me about them.

My problems are mine - no one "sent" me, and in some cases the US government would not have approved. Soldiers are different, and they deserve better than knee-jerk assumptions that they all too often get from a clueless civilian population that get all their war stories from the comfort of a chair set in front of a computer. Now, I'm not directing that at you, since based on several of your posts here and there you seem to have a genuine compassion that is not often met with in the big scary civvie world.

I've heard recently about soldiers getting virtually non-existent vet benefits, in America. There are also cases of soldiers with severe PTSD, being redeployed; sometimes multiple times. The government is treating you like entirely disposable garbage.

That's nothing new, although you may have only recently been made aware of it. My great-great-so many greats back grandpa was a scout for the government in the Revolutionary war. He was screwed out of his pension for that service by a vindictive bureaucrat when he was in his 70's. The more things change, the more they stay the same. Most of the vets I know have been treated pretty well by the VA these days, but right now there is a whole new crop of combat vets arising that seem to be encountering the same old problems. The problems encountered in dealing with Gulf War Syndrome from the first Gulf War are a good example of that, and the constant redeployments of stressed out guys even now are another, as you cite.

reply to post by nenothtu

Thank you gents for the civil discussion. You hung in there through the rough and tumble to get to the civil discussion, and that is to be commended.

You're welcome and I can see you didn't know, but I am not a man. It's okay. My avatar is Wonder Woman and it's kind of small. Yes, it was a healthy debate and/or discussion.

You know what has me most upset about the current war(s)? The fact that all these soldiers and civilians are losing their lives IMO for nothing at this point and it doesn't look like they're leaving anytime soon enough.

My nephew has been deployed more times than I can count. He is currently in Afghanistan.

Enjoyed the video

Originally posted by ThePublicEnemyNo1
reply to post by nenothtu

 

Thank you gents for the civil discussion. You hung in there through the rough and tumble to get to the civil discussion, and that is to be commended.

You're welcome and I can see you didn't know, but I am not a man. It's okay. My avatar is Wonder Woman and it's kind of small.

Oops. Sorry 'bout that. they old eyes ain't what they used to be when they weren't old eyes!

You know what has me most upset about the current war(s)? The fact that all these soldiers and civilians are losing their lives IMO for nothing at this point and it doesn't look like they're leaving anytime soon enough.

well, now, I can agree with that somewhat. I have my own notions of how it ought to go, but who doesn't? There's a lot of needless and useless waste going on, and way too many troops, of the wrong sort, in-theater. When Kabul initially fell, we had 100 US troops on the ground - just 100. The huge amounts of conventional forces should never have been sent in. You don't swat flies with a baseball bat. It's too much force and too unweildy for the job, and the fly just skates away while you're getting it in motion. What happens then is you wind up smashing a lot of stuff that doesn't stand in need of a smashing, and the fly is none the worse for the wear.

I blame the generals for a lot of it. Most of them have no sense of scale, and only see a chestfull of medals for themselves, with other guys doing the heavy lifting.

My nephew has been deployed more times than I can count. He is currently in Afghanistan.

I wish him good luck. If he's doing what I think he is, the deployments never end until you get out, war or no war. There's always some small scale lunacy somewhere that needs to be addressed. I have a friend who just got back from Afghanistan a few months ago - he was "somewhere around" Bagram, I think, and was there when the Battle of the Gate broke out a year or two ago. Last I heard from him, he's taken a training job here in the states, and won't be going back for a while.

I was "somewhere around" Jalalabad, but that was many moons ago, long before George Bush was a gleam in some voter's eye.