Is Islam a genuine threat?

reply to post by Aeons


Which really reminds me. How would it be if Afghanistan was under communism?www.abovetopsecret.com... like this thread i posted like here.

Originally posted by Aeons
Islam means Peace Through SUBMISSION.

Then Explain to the world why the Chinese
government allows and has
millions of Muslims ? ? ?
Just think about this FACT just for one minute.

If Islam is such a threat why does the Chinese government
allow mosques in China ?
If Islam is such a threat then explain why this too
is allowed ? : check out the picts.
millions of Muslims celabrate

streets of China

The threat is only to the corporate elite.
I long for the days of cheap gas and peace, if only the west
wasn't so dog eat dog profit hungry.
Face it, censorship, propaganda, war, is what runs western
corporations and american paper dollar.

reply to post by ToneDeaf


I suggest you have a nice chat with a Han at some point. The beauty of this situation should be so clear to you.

Things aren't quite as wonderful as you're trying to make out.

I would like to add something of value to this thread as a Muslim woman and researcher.

Historically speaking, Islam was a religion that came about in a country that had no government in the modern sense.

At the time of the Prophet Muhammad, were no government funded police officers or jails like those existing under Kindgom rule of some of the other countries. Islamic Sharia was practiced in courts, and if anyone had any disputes they would go to court and resolve it through them. No one was picked off the street by a government entity.

In other words, there was no body that regulated every aspect of human life. No one was forced into anything. If anyone wanted any rules applied, the public would apply it to themselves and towards other members of the public.

Fast forward 1450 years and you'll find the world of today has changed very much. In todays 'modern' world, populations have increased so much, that we try to regulate every aspect of human life. We have put rules into everything, and if people don't follow those rules, the government has a right to break into their homes and take them off to jail.

So in my opinion, Islam was not meant to be a religion practiced under organized government. Infact, organized government is against Islam in every sense of the word. For example, in Islam, no one can forcefully enter another persons house if the owner does not allow it, even if the owner was doing something completely against Islam.

To have Islam as a way of governance under organized government would mean two things, and by looking at the Iranian and Saudi Arabian examples you can see this come to life:

1. Organized government turns Islam, into organized religion. By appointing a number of men who 'decide' what the rest of the country should live like.

2. Organized Islam is against the gist of the religion, since the Quran does not appoint any living human as the 'head' of religion.

Whats surprising to me as an educated Muslim is that my own people, have no idea that letting Islam be applied by a bunch of politicians is very anti Islamic. According to Islam, every man and woman is responsible for their own knowledge and way of life. No one can force anyone into anything. And no one should get rid of the responsibility of living a proper life, by following a bunch of 'scholars' like sheep.

The Prophet Muhammad would never let anyone stand for him when he entered a room, he would get off his camel to pick up something he had dropped and he never EVER supported the kind of governance system we have nowadays. And MY muslim people do the exact opposite. They worship the men and women who are in government, they give them more rights and more respect and watch them have better lives while the public crumbles in unemployment and ignorance.

And what happens under such organized governments that have organized, men driven religions? Corruption my friends. Utter and complete corruption. Complete disrespect for human life. Why? Because a bunch of men 'know better' than the rest. Isn't that how all evils start?

Islam is a religion that is governed by no man, each and every person has a responsibility towards God to govern themselves. And this thing called: controlling people, its completely and utterly against the religion.

Hope my Muslim friends on ATS would read this and ponder on it.

Originally posted by nusnus
The Prophet Muhammad would never let anyone stand for him when he entered a room, he would get off his camel to pick up something he had dropped and he never EVER supported the kind of governance system we have nowadays. And MY muslim people do the exact opposite.

This is one of the most difficult issues, here. Muslims claim that Muhammad was the proverbial being of light. Atheists on the other hand claim that he was essentially a medieval hybrid of Napoleon Bonaparte and Lafayette Ronald Hubbard. If the Atheists are to be believed, Muslims are generally also lying through their teeth when they present Muhammed as having been remotely positive or sympathetic. I'm learning about the practice of taqiyya, and I'm not sure how Muslims can expect people from outside the religion to believe a word they say, after learning about something like this.

Islam is a religion that is governed by no man, each and every person has a responsibility towards God to govern themselves. And this thing called: controlling people, its completely and utterly against the religion.

You say that. Others say things that are completely different. Someone is lying. How are we supposed to know who?

reply to post by petrus4


Of course, just like there are different sects of Christianity (Lutheran, Baptist, Seventh-Day Adventist), there are different sects of Islam (Suni, Shi'ite, Sufi, Ghulat). So, people may not be lying per say, just have a different view thanks to their sect.

Without going too much into sects, for me it's quite obvious the shia have somewhat strayed from the original message of Islam, doesnt take a great deal of research to see this.

Anyway in regards to a muslim denying that they are a muslim when their life is at risk, I dont see anything wrong with this, GOD knows what is in your heart, if someone literally has a gun against your head and says "are you a muslim?, if so I'm going to kill you", then I cant for a second see why anyone would whinge about the muslim saying no I'm not a muslim just to prevent being killed, HOWEVER I think you'll find alot of muslims are that devout that they will say "YES, I'm a muslim, kill me if you must, ALLAH will decide your fate".

Did, you also know a muslim is allowed to eat swine if and only if his/her life is at risk from lack of food and there is absolutely nothing else to eat? far fetched situation, yes, but GOD is the most just, and sometimes you have no choice but to except the lesser evil.

Originally posted by Aeons

You need a thorough, complete, understandable, tasty, charming meme for people to move TO.

EAT THE RICH

The Rich and the politicians they control are responsible for the immigrant
invasion in US inc. and Europe.
They were brought there to provide cheap labor and to destroy the middle class.
The people would never have voted for such a future.
The cultural Marxist liberals believe that the destruction of society is necessary
to recreate it in the Marxist model so they go along with the plan.
The right wing conservatives see the immigrants as cheap labor which is good for
business so they go along with the plan.

Eat the Rich and their Politicians should be the New Meme.
However there is the old meme of the majority of the people
which is to worship the rich.
Only a drowning man can see Jesus and only a starving
sheeple can see his fate.

Originally posted by petrus4
I'm learning about the practice of taqiyya, and I'm not sure how Muslims can expect people from outside the religion to believe a word they say,

This is why water-boarding doesn't work.

There is one manner in which I have wronged Islam, and for that I apologise.

I have attempted to learn about the religion from Atheists; and not just any Atheists, but a specific group of Atheists who self-identify as such, primarily as a means of expressing their hatred towards faith in God in general. They wish to see all religion destroyed, not merely Islam.

Originally posted by nearlyfabled
reply to post by Maslo

 

You bet that's the real face of Islam, but it doesn't mean that it's harsh or a threat to the West. When someone has their hand cut off for stealing something, do you think they can easily and consciously steal something again, while they use their only remaining hand to commit the crime?

Yes, they can still con people and the like. Personally I find mutilating the body unacceptable as a punishment, aside from chemical (not physical) castration of sex offenders.

Originally posted by petrus4
I have attempted to learn about the religion from Atheists; and not just any Atheists, but a specific group of Atheists who self-identify as such, primarily as a means of expressing their hatred towards faith in God in general.

That's the biggest problem with atheists, there are almost as many versions of atheism as there are atheists, and those that use atheism as just another religion are, in my opinion as an atheist, the worst kind.

The problem with Islam is the exact same problem with America - it's too vengeful and militaristic. Both are focused on retribution and see themselves as being superior to people with other beliefs and lifestyles.

Originally posted by ArMaP

Originally posted by petrus4
I have attempted to learn about the religion from Atheists; and not just any Atheists, but a specific group of Atheists who self-identify as such, primarily as a means of expressing their hatred towards faith in God in general.

That's the biggest problem with atheists, there are almost as many versions of atheism as there are atheists, and those that use atheism as just another religion are, in my opinion as an atheist, the worst kind.

The other problem with that is, that they also give the rest of you a bad name, when you don't deserve it. I've started coming across people who self-identify as atheists online recently, who seem calm, moderate in what they say and think, and pretty much entirely reasonable generally...which is very very different from the vocal minority that you see on YouTube.

I'm starting to think that just about every religion or philosophy has that problem, Islam included. Most of the adherents of any given culture are perfectly fine. It's just a vocal minority; 5-15% or so, probably, that spoil things for everyone else.

In the case of atheists, that 5% is a group which thinks that any form of theistic belief needs to be annihilated, when the silent majority seem to be people who don't have a problem with other people believing in God; they just don't themselves, but they don't get aggressive about it.

In the case of Islam, that 5% is a group who like raping women and blowing things up; when again, I suspect that the silent 95% are calm, rational, decent people, who also seem to be just as horrified by the actions of the aberrant 5% as the rest of us are. People who engage in bad behaviour are generally a tiny minority; it's just that in terms of any particular cultural group, they're generally so loud, shocking, and high profile, that when you look at the culture for the first time, tragically their bad behaviour is initially all you see.

Originally posted by petrus4


In the case of Islam, that 5% is a group who like raping women and blowing things up; when again, I suspect that the silent 95% are calm, rational, decent people, who also seem to be just as horrified by the actions of the aberrant 5% as the rest of us are. People who engage in bad behaviour are generally a tiny minority;

Lets see.
You have 50 men and 50 women in a population.
Under Islamic Polygamy 4 wives are permitted.
If just 5 men have 4 wives each,
that leaves 30 women for 45 men out of the original 50.
That means 15 men out of 50 will not
have a wife. That is 30 percent with no future life
worth living.
They can rape infidels under Islam.
They can take infidel women as sex slaves under Islam.
Or they can Jihad kill infidels under Islam and get
72 virgins if they die.

30 percent of the men engaging in bad behavior is not a tiny minority.
Even 5 percent is not a tiny minority.

You are engaging in a cultural marxist distortion of reality
when you try and minimize the evils of the Islamic system.

reply to post by MrXYZ


Several of my friends grew up as white people in the middle east actually.

They lived in fear for celebrating Christmas. They dreaded the day they were going to have to start wearing a burqua to leave their compound. Another had several attempts to buy her made. People were very friendly - and talked to the men about their admiration for Hitler.

Friendly and FRIENDS are not the same thing.

I think the problem is true and consistent faith in the Holy scriptures, and it's not just a case of interpretation:-

Some Muslims don't declare Jihad on all non-believers, despite their scriptures demanding it. Some muslims don't think stoning a women is a humane punishment, despite their scripture insisting it is.

Just as some Christians are not homophobic, despite their scriptures being explicitly homophobic.

It's not "moderate" or "vague" Muslims that I'm worried about, it's people who have read the scriptures, and do, like the scripture, wish to wage a Holy war on "Kafirs" (non-believers of Islam)

In short, The Islamic scriptures are very threatening to those who do not agree with them. More so than the other Abrahamic religions.

reply to post by NeverForget

Originally posted by NeverForget
I think the problem is true and consistent faith in the Holy scriptures, and it's not just a case of interpretation:-

Some Muslims don't declare Jihad on all non-believers, despite their scriptures demanding it. Some muslims don't think stoning a women is a humane punishment, despite their scripture insisting it is.

Just as some Christians are not homophobic, despite their scriptures being explicitly homophobic.

It's not "moderate" or "vague" Muslims that I'm worried about, it's people who have read the scriptures, and do, like the scripture, wish to wage a Holy war on "Kafirs" (non-believers of Islam)

I think the problem is that some people make assumptions without knowing all the facts.
The scriptures make no demands on muslims to "declare Jihad" on all non-believers. The scriptures make no demands to "stone women". One can be a follower of the Islamic scripture, and also be a well-contributing, kind, integrated member of society.

Originally posted by NeverForgetIn short, The Islamic scriptures are very threatening to those who do not agree with them. More so than the other Abrahamic religions.

Again, I somewhat disagree with you here. Islam, for example, doesn't require the whole-sale slaughter of all members of an opposing group (even the innocents and women and children). It doesn't require declaring war on (and therefore killing everyone, including the innocents again) a group simply because they refused to let you use their land to cross so that you could go kill some other people on the other side. Guess which Abrahamic religion does?

I think the true threat here is ignorance.

reply to post by babloyi


Welcome, It's nice to see apologetics debating. Of course, Before claiming people "don't know" all the facts, You'd be kind enough enough to present said "facts"?

I think the problem is that some people make assumptions without knowing all the facts.

Completely agree with you here, But Islamic scriptures do wage a holy war on Kafirs.

[2.190] ...fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you...[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

[193]...fight with them...[194]...whoever then acts aggressively against you, inflict injury on him according to the injury he has inflicted on you...

[4.74] Therefore let those fight in the way of Allah, who sell this world's life for the hereafter; and whoever fights in the way of Allah, then be he slain or be he victorious, We shall grant him a mighty reward. [4.75] ...fight in the way of Allah... [4.76] Those who believe fight in the way of Allah, and those who disbelieve fight in the way of the Satan. Fight therefore against the friends of the Satan... [4.77] ...when fighting is prescribed for them...Our Lord! why hast Thou ordained fighting for us?...

[4.94]...when you go to war in Allah's way... [4.95] ...those who strive hard [Jihad] in Allah's way with their property and their persons are not equal...Allah shall grant to the strivers [i.e., Jihadist] above the holders back a mighty reward.

It's also worth mentioning and higlighting that the people who claim to be "moderate" Muslims very little often condemn extreme militias, or admit that their actions are based on passages from the QuRan.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/11f0c1ede2bf.jpg[/atsimg]

Before rebutting, please use "evidence" or "facts" that you are claiming people are ignorant of.

For example, the passages I quoted from the quran, share your exogesis, show how militias are just interpreting them to meet their own agenda. I'd very much enjoy that debate:-

Show that scripture does not wage a war on non-believers.

Please do this with facts, the very facts you are claiming we are ignorant of.

Thanks very much.

reply to post by NeverForget

Errr... you said "Some Muslims don't declare Jihad on all non-believers, despite their scriptures demanding it", i.e. that the scriptures DEMAND that muslims "declare Jihad" on all non-believers.

And then you quoted verses from the Quran saying that muslims are allowed to fight those people who fought them, who persecuted them, and who drove them out of their homes. You also skipped out the part of those verses (with the convenient "..." symbol) where it said that Muslims are not allowed to begin hostilities, and if the other side stops fighting or asks for peace, it must be accepted.