Fahrenheit 9/11 Propaganda or fact?

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Ezekial
GWB is gonna stay seated for 13 minutes after finding out about the Towers

Actually, it was 7 minutes.

Sorry, honest mistake, I think there was a '13' in the time shown on-screen. Oops.

I really think Moore is over stepping his bounds. If you are going to make documentaries on a sensative topic, you want it to be fair and just for both sides. He is getting waaay too involved in his films. And he uses comedy in a very sneaky fashion, especially words to music.
^ on music, I must say it was hilarious when that "believe it or not I' m walkin' on air" song came on during the election montage.

i didnt think too much of 'F911', for the main reason that i find moore's style grating. as for whether it was propaganda or fact, i think that's a false distinction. not all propaganda is nessecarily false. most of moore's claims are both true AND geared to push an agenda. while i agree with what moore is trying to do, i think it's a shame the majority of people in america need his moronic style of film-making to be exposed to the facts, instead of just reading a newspaper every day. if i sound snobby, oh well.

-koji K.

If you were not impressed by F/911, i highly reccomend watching "The World According To Bush", this is a real documentary which takes views from both sides using in depth interviews (including interviews with the CIA operatives, head of the carlyle group, colin powell etc)

Here is a link to part 2 (part one has not been released online yet), you will need to get a program called BitTorrent to download it, its the best documentary on the Bush administration i have seen yet.

The World According to Bush (part 2).torrent

Thanks for the link, but I'm in the dark ages internet-wise, damn dial up.

I'll continue doing more research and deny ignorance. Hhaha, the first time I've ever actually said it.

I would agree that anyone who believes F911 (or ANY of Moore's movies) needs to pick up the book "Michael Moore is a big fat stuiped American". If you don't want to read the book but get some background you can check out this link:

www.moorelies.com

After reading about Moore's history and the inaccuracies/intentional deceptions in EVERY piece of his work it just confirmed my suspicion that he is a man with an agenda and I don't think he knows what the word 'truth' means!

I really dont know if f9/11 is based on true fact but as most of you said GWB did not react for some( quite long ) time when he was informed about the attacks. Now people, you all discharge him, because you turn to his human side. However let's not forget that actually he has been elected to act adequately ,namely in these kind of situations. For Christ sake, he is the one who is supposed to make decisions, fast, quick and correct. It is just going to be extremely incompetent to judge ( in the sense of making up my mind about f9/11) him only from one side. To me Bush proves one more time that he is not a good politician, not talking about a good President. I think for a nation to feel secure it does not have to know that its President is on a war with Terrorism, but it has to know that its President (in the case with the US political system because the President is the one making decisions) is able to make intelligent and reasonable decisions. I think it is a shame for one of the World leading countries to have a President to whom the rest of the world looks at with sarcastic smile! Of course that is my opinion!
Many of the Americans are actually careless to what the rest of the world thinks about their country. However, to me it is really important to understand what a third party member thinks of me, my country and my nation ( i'm not American). Open your eyes to the world before the world has shut their eyes to you!

Originally posted by Eddie999
In fact, I don't think Lenin is mentioned at all.

I said the principles of Lenin. I haven't seen the film because I never seek out liars to learn the truth. It's like going to a vegan restaurant for ribeye.

Look, I saw only clips of the movie. It is beyond me how a President can continue reading the "little goat" book when the nation is under attack. What the fudge is that?

Originally posted by Aelita
Look, I saw only clips of the movie. It is beyond me how a President can continue reading the "little goat" book when the nation is under attack. What the fudge is that?

Okay. I am not the President nor am I a member of his staff, but this is what I know of command.

The President sits at the top of every governmental chain of command. He is the "chief executive officer" of the nation. The President does not have to "dirty" his hands with anything. He has plenty of individuals who are tasked with those duties.

I don't know what the President's aide whispered in his ear, but it is certainly plausible that he was informed of the attack and that he should ccontinue with his classroom visit until such time as more information became available.

The beauty of bureaucracy is that responsibility is dispersed. The fate of the nation almost never falls immediately into the lap of the President. There are Privates and Airmen and Sergeants and Petty Officers and Captains and Colonels and Generals and Adimirals and Secretaries and on and on who must act according to the dictates of their offices before the President even comes into play.

No one is going to run in to the President and say, "The World Trade Towers have been attacked, what should we do?"

The situation was unfolding at the time that he was in the classroom. There was precious little information to impart. The Secret Service was scrambling to set up a plan of action on the run. You can bet that the Secret Service had a lot to do with what actions the President took in those SIX (6) minutes.

I think the President showed an immense degree of restraint and calm in what must have been a seemingly interminable SIX (6) minutes. Imagine for one moment what it was like for the President to continue to read to the children and not give one clue that anything was wrong. To me, that is leadership. The best leader is one who delegates responsibility and allows those whom he delegates to do their jobs. GW was textbook example of that dictum.



[edit on 04/8/24 by GradyPhilpott]

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott

Originally posted by Aelita
Look, I saw only clips of the movie. It is beyond me how a President can continue reading the "little goat" book when the nation is under attack. What the fudge is that?

Okay. I am not the President nor am I a member of his staff, but this is what I know of command.

The President sits at the top of every governmental chain of command. He is the "chief executive officer" of the nation. The President does not have to "dirty" his hands with anything. He has plenty of individuals who are tasked with those duties.

in most cases, the president can depend on his subordinates to take action for him, while the president himself should concentrate on leading the country (for example, by bravely and defiantly reading "my pet goat" during the countries' greatest crisis since pearl harbor). but this was one of those rare occasions when the president himself and not a subordinate was required to take time-critical action. only the US president can make the decision to authorize the shoot down a civilian airliner in flight. but as we all know, cheney had to stretch the law a little and make the decision himself.

but what's really scary is, upon being informed of the terrorist attack, bush didnt even ask for more information. at the very least i'd think it reasonable for the commander-in-chief to ask some basic questions to his aides, starting with, 'what's the plan?' or some such. instead he sat there reading.

whether or not i'd act any better, i don't know, but i wasn't the guy in charge. history will judge bush, not me, and i pity him for that.

-koji K.

[edit on 24-8-2004 by koji_K]

Originally posted by koji_K

but what's really scary is, upon being informed of the terrorist attack, bush didnt even ask for more information. at the very least i'd think it reasonable for the commander-in-chief to ask some basic questions to his aides, starting with, 'what's the plan?' or some such. instead he sat there reading.

whether or not i'd act any better, i don't know, but i wasn't the guy in charge. history will judge bush, not me, and i pity him for that.

-koji K.

You can never convince me that those SIX (6) minutes made any difference and that the President was not acting on the best advice available to him at the time.

If his aide had whispered in his ear, "The WTC has been attacked, get your Presidential Posterior into the limosine immediately," I believe that is exactly what he would have done.

This whole exchange is the acme of petty second-guessing. No one has ever raised one legitimate criticism of GW. Everything has to do with his presumed stupidity, his being the anti-christ, his not soiling his pants in the Florida classroom, his "desertion" from the NG, and on and on. This is juvenile idiocy beyond description.



[edit on 04/8/24 by GradyPhilpott]

I used to have f911 on my site but that was before I watched it. After i watched it i saw that it was one kernel of truth with 99 kernels of propaganda and edits i pulled it. Michael Moore tried to tell us that GWB is the reason it all happened and tried to make some claim that the demorat party could save us from it all. Let me say with no mixing of words there is NO DIFFERENCE in the reps and dems thats why I call them Republicrats. They are all out to maintain the power while screwing the American people. Ask yourself which one wants to protect our borders? Which one wants to look at alternative fuels like Hemp and other BIOMASS fuels? Which one is willing to call the Saudis the #1 terrorists state supporting and funding terror? Someone on ATS has a picture that says "ONE PARTY, ONE VOTE, NO CHOICE" this is so true. Anyone claiming that the reps or the dems can save us has not been paying attention. I think Queensryche summed it up best in their song Spreading the Disease......

"Religion and sex are power plays, manipulate the people for the money they pay, selling skin selling God the #'s look the same on their credit cards. Fighting a fight withing two worlds while the fat stay fat the poor stay poor the rich get rich and the cops get paid to look away as the 1% rules the Americas"

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott

Originally posted by koji_K

but what's really scary is, upon being informed of the terrorist attack, bush didnt even ask for more information. at the very least i'd think it reasonable for the commander-in-chief to ask some basic questions to his aides, starting with, 'what's the plan?' or some such. instead he sat there reading.

whether or not i'd act any better, i don't know, but i wasn't the guy in charge. history will judge bush, not me, and i pity him for that.

-koji K.

You can never convince me that those SIX (6) minutes made any difference and that the President was not acting on the best advice available to him at the time.

If his aide had whispered in his ear, "The WTC has been attacked, get your Presidential Posterior into the limosine immediately," I believe that is exactly what he would have done.

This whole exchange is the acme of petty second-guessing. No one has ever raised one legitimate criticism of GW. Everything has to do with his presumed stupidity, his being the anti-christ, his not soiling his pants in the Florida classroom, his "desertion" from the NG, and on and on. This is juvenile idiocy beyond description.



[edit on 04/8/24 by GradyPhilpott]

i will agree that the 6 minutes probably didnt make much of a difference all things considered. and while i certainly think there are plenty of legitimate criticisms of george w. bush, this is one of the pettier ones, yes. (although i stand by my statement that i think it's odd he didnt ask any questions.)people watching F9/11 usually seem to think this is the main "crime" of bush presented by the movie, something i can't understand.

-koji K.

[edit on 25-8-2004 by koji_K]

[edit on 28/8/04 by COMSEUR]

I'm sure there's no outright lies, but many twists of the truth and taking things out of context. But saying that, we must remember that the right wing media does that eg. Fox News and them. Michael Moore's work may not be the most accurate or truthful, but it is the only left wing counter to the huge right wing media.

I used to be a massive fan of Michael Moore, loved his books, loved 'The Awful Truth' - his TV show. But now I want nothing to do with the lying idiot.

Michael Moore's record stands for itself.

He was sued by Roger of Roger and Me fame and settled.

In Bowling for Columbine he rips into Heston for showing up in Flint a couple of days after a young girl was killed by a stray bullet. According to Moore, Heston was there for a pro gun rally (NRA stuff). Heston acted a bit confused about the claim and then threw Moore out of his house. Apparently, the real truth is that Heston was in Flint about 6 months after the girl died but it was for a voter drive of some sort. I'm sure the gun lobby was behind it but it wasn't a pro gun rally and it certainly wasn't held days after a girl was killed by a stray bullet.

In F/911 the editing is apparently amazing. The clips of Bush "on vacation" at Camp David fail to show the visiting dignitaries that are at the beginning or end of the clips he used. Camp David is a retreat but not exactly a vacation for the president. If he was on vacation, he wouldn't have leaders of other nations coming for talks. He isn't going fly fishing with Tony Blair. The clip of Bush on the golf course, where he says something about catching the terrorists and then closes with "now watch this drive" is taken out of context. The terrorists he's referring to are palestinians that blew up a bomb in Israel (I think it was Israel but it definitely wasn't the wtc/pentagon terrorists). Also, if Clinton had made the same comments, it would be deemed charismatic. If Roosevelt, Kennedy, or any of the other so called "great presidents" made that comment, while on a golf course, they'd be deemed workaholics for mixing business with pleasure. Bush is portrayed as a jackass.

Also, the constant reminder that he's not the best linguist makes Moore look like the fat bully on the bus that constantly mocks the slightly retarded kid. It might seem funny to some at first but it is really mean. Granted, our leaders should be able to say nuclear and fetus without a hitch, but there's no point mocking them to the point of mean-ness.

There are many other inconsistant facts in the film and the links provided in this thread detail them all.

Moore claims to be the voice of the worker. He lives in luxury in NYC. He sends his kids to private schools (in NYC, kindergarten can cost close to $15,000 a year - I know because I'm sweating that bill shortly).

Moore also claims to be from Flint, Michigan. Well, he actually comes from a suburb outside of Flint and I heard someone say that Moore claiming he is from Flint is like someone from Westchester (expensive NY suburb) claiming to be from the Bronx.

I liked Roger and Me and I thought Columbine was ok. The fact that he got Walmart (or Kmart) to stop selling bullets was great but his tactics are via major manipulation of facts. His films are entertainment more than documentary and he has said that in several interviews. What saddens me is that a large portion of our population sees that movie and thinks it is 100% accurate because it is tagged "documentary."

To listen to my mother in law, who is a dolt of bibilical proportions, tell me it is my patriotic duty as an american to see F/911, and that after seeing it, nobody in their right mind could vote for Bush scares me. I had to explain to her that it is my right, as an American, to avoid giving Moore my money and that, should she read a bit more than view she might find out the real truth that lies somewhere in the middle.

Lastly, for those of you that want to download it for free, there was a site that had it linked a while back. I don't remember the address but the site posted a quote from Moore that said something to the effect of "I have no problem with people downloading my movie, so long as someone else isn't making money on it. I just want to get the message across."

Well, the site had the film and above the link it said "here is a link to F/911. It is absolutely free and nobody is making any money off of this link."

The studio was planning on filing a suit to get the link removed. Moore was oddly quiet about the whole thing.

Heel, if he had no problem with people downloading his movie he would mirror the movie on his site.