Miami Police shoot, kill man carrying toy gun

Originally posted by Domo1
reply to post by getreadyalready

 

I'm having doubts that you are an officer. No way any law enforcement officer advocates "winging" someone.

Completely agree. I cannot imagine a cop that would advocate 'winging' someone or ramming them with a car. I also can' imagine an officer that doesn't see the difference between a guy holding a gun and a guy acting in a threatening manner. I think we need to see a uniform and timestamp.

Say what you will .I bet this officer is running these scenarios through his mind now.Wishing that he would have done the right thing and not end that guys life.

This could be anybodies son or daughter that is over a certain height and weight playing with a toy gun.If anybody thinks otherwise they should take some time off.

reply to post by deadeyedick

Say what you will .I bet this officer is running these scenarios through his mind now.Wishing that he would have done the right thing and not end that guys life.

I agree the officer is probably running through scenarios and probably horribly depressed. I think he did the right thing, but it must still be a horrible feeling.

Originally posted by Flyer
reply to post by Magnum007

 

A perfect example of a shoot first think later stupidity of the police.

I wonder how youd feel if a fellow moron did the same to one of your family.

To say you are in the same country as me, sheesh... you know in the UK that to walk the streets in the UK with what looks like a gun will make sure armed police are called. You know that if you then brandish that item in a way seen threatening - you will get shot. You know what? That means other people are not dead through what looked like a real threat to both the public and the police there to serve them (and by the way, hoping to not die themselves). There's no example here of shoot first unless you mean wait until the person shoots first, injures or kills someone and then we shoot.

I'm not sure who you think is the moron, but you may want to reflect on that yourself.

reply to post by deadeyedick

no crime=precrime that was my thought at the time

If you want to get technical about it, there are several "crimes" that would have taken place if the weapon were real. And if we want to look at this rationally, we must look at it from the officer's point of view before it was discovered it was a toy.

So, lets see. Just carrying a firearm in that manner would violate several laws in the state of Florida:
Florida Gun Laws

It is unlawful for:
[Non-pertinent information omitted]
The following persons to own, possess or use any firearm - drug addicts, alcoholics, mental incompetents, and vagrants.

The man was mentally incompetent because of his handicap. It was unlawful for him to carry a firearm.

Carrying

Unless covered under the exceptions, it is unlawful to openly carry on or about the person any firearm, or to carry a concealed firearm on or about the person without a license.

There you have it. It is unlawful for him to openly carry a firearm.

We also have pointing it, which is first degree assault or some degree of aggravated assault depending on the laws in Florida.

So, there. It appeared to the officer that several crimes were in-progress at the time of the encounter. No PREcrime.

Your all putting way to much value and emphasis on a useless branch of local and federal government called law enforcement.

These are the same Reefer madness psychopaths that bust down doors and kill dogs in cages of the home owners. The same law enforcement that routinely is viewed violating the constitution on a daily basis and almost without no second thought to it really. Sure there are "good cops" but lets be honest about something...these guys when in a group..will act like a pack of dogs. Its the training...its the "control"

These are not your "protectors" they are your SS, your Gestapo, your masters soldiers to keep you in check.. Sure that sounds harsh...but its not wrong.

Though I am certain flak for my views will come. I am just as certain some of you will sit back and realize its not all slander and satire.. Sure we don't cook people..no no..we jail and imprison. Why? There is a huge market for it..we have more people in prison and jail than anywhere in the world. Hell, we are now relying on the police to discipline our children in school because teachers are not teachers but "indoctrination subordinates for the state" if your child acts out of line? Call the State!

I just wish there was such a thing as real neighborhood defense watches by citizens whom were trained and disciplined to do so as a volunteer than so many cops with the capability to start a small war with all the weapons they carry to inflict so much harm on others...

Originally posted by areyouserious2010
reply to post by deadeyedick

 

no crime=precrime that was my thought at the time

If you want to get technical about it, there are several "crimes" that would have taken place if the weapon were real. And if we want to look at this rationally, we must look at it from the officer's point of view before it was discovered it was a toy.

You cant be for real.How can you say get technical Then substitute a fake one with a real one and act like it pertains to this case.

reply to post by Old77


Now that is revolutionary thought.

reply to post by Flyer


There clearly was a huge danger to the public. The cops.

reply to post by Old77


BLAH BLAH BLAH

...useless...

BLAH BLA BLAH
Really? Tell that to the many people who have been helped by the police department over the years.

These are the same Reefer madness psychopaths that bust down doors and kill dogs in cages of the home owners.

Reefer madness was made in 1936. It is probably safe to say that most police officers today have never even seen it and if they did would know that it completely falsifies the effects of using marijuana on a person.

The same law enforcement that routinely is viewed violating the constitution on a daily basis and almost without no second thought to it really.

Provide me with an example and we will go over it to see if it violates the constitution.

These are not your "protectors" they are your SS, your Gestapo,

Police officers in American society enforce the law and are directly related to stopping criminal action. The SS and Gestapo were used by the Nazi regime to persecute members of certain races, religions, spys and political dissenters and had very little to do with combating crime. In fact, Germany still had a separate police force which handled criminal matters who did not partake in such vile and atrocious tactics as the SS and Gestapo.

your masters soldiers to keep you in check.. Sure that sounds harsh...but its not wrong.

It is wrong because even if a mayor, governor, representative or senator, or even the President ordered a police officer to arrest someone without that someone committing a crime, they will not be arrested. The police operate under laws that are democratically codified and installed.

Sure we don't cook people..no no..we jail and imprison. Why? There is a huge market for it.

Umm, no I am pretty sure that society doesnt want to cook people and I'm pretty sure that falls under cruel and unusual punishment. Something that is expressly forbidden in the Bill of Rights.

I just wish there was such a thing as real neighborhood defense watches by citizens whom were trained and disciplined to do so as a volunteer than so many cops with the capability to start a small war with all the weapons they carry to inflict so much harm on others...

There is. It is called the POLICE DEPARTMENT. The reason it does not fall on the neighborhood itself is because some neighborhoods may not have enough people willing or able to volunteer in such a capacity. Do those neighborhoods deserve less protection?

I am also certain that the second a "volunteer" was shot and killed, the other "volunteers" would be less likely to perform their duty without weapons and financial compensation.

Originally posted by saneasylum
Not to sound heartless, but a mentally disabled person is like a moldy grape in the bag; it needs to be thrown away.

edit on 2-9-2011 by saneasylum because: (no reason given)

Well you do sound heartless and stupid!

Think before you speak !

reply to post by deadeyedick

You cant be for real.How can you say get technical Then substitute a fake one with a real one and act like it pertains to this case.

How can you be for real when the officer was under the impression it was a real gun, because it did not look like a toy, at the time of the encounter?

You use facts that are discovered after the incident and hind sight as support for your argument. In essence, you are engaging your own form of "precrime" which you accuse the police of doing.

There really was no way to tell it was a toy gun at the time the officer shot the man; but the officer is guilty of murder because he shot a man that was holding a toy gun that looked real.

Wrong.

Originally posted by areyouserious2010
reply to post by Old77

 

BLAH BLAH BLAH

Oh, a cop. Hi!

Although to answer you concisely, Old77 was right. You're not.

Why do I say this? Because there is literally no civilian control of American police whatsoever any more. It's become completely normal for an American police officer to assume that civilians are obligated to obey literally every word that comes out of their mouths. If said civilians are unwilling to do this, then said civilians are bashed and/or killed, and the police officer will then lie to his superiors and/or a judge about the civilian's actions, in order to justify his own behaviour.

The attitude of the police towards civilians, is now completely adversarial. Contemporary police do not see themselves as public employees. They don't see their job as being to serve and protect the civilian population. They see us as the Enemy.

So they will bash us, shoot us, wrongfully incarcerate us, torture us in custody...they will do all of these things quite willingly, because they know that when push comes to shove, every single time their superiors or a judge will back them to the hilt, instead of the civilian public. Because of the legislation introduced to combat the fictitious threat of terrorism, police officers are now fully legally and culturally empowered to impersonate Judge Dredd, with impunity. Therefore, that is exactly what they do.

reply to post by petrus4

Oh, a cop. Hi!

Oh someone who likes to make assumptions. Hi! Welcome to the conversation late.

Why do I say this? Because there is literally no civilian control of American police whatsoever any more.

Really? How about electing the state and federal representatives who make the law which the police enforce? How about keeping track of how your representative votes so that you can hold them accountable? How about the civilian review boards that many police departments have that supervise internal affairs investigations? How about State's Attorneys who also review just about everything the police do from investigation of crime to internal investigation?

You must have forgotten about those.

It's become completely normal for an American police officer to assume that civilians are obligated to obey literally every word that comes out of their mouths. If said civilians are unwilling to do this, then said civilians are bashed and/or killed, and the police officer will then lie to his superiors and/or a judge about the civilian's actions, in order to justify his own behaviour.

You are extrapolating a very few bad police officer's actions and making them a representation of the whole. This is incorrect. It is the same prejudice that plagues any sort of racism. The minority of a race does something bad so then the entire race must also be bad. There are 700,000 to 800,000 sworn police officer in the United States. If you were to tally the number of corrupt cops, you would probably find that they number less than 1%.

The attitude of the police towards civilians, is now completely adversarial. Contemporary police do not see themselves as public employees. They don't see their job as being to serve and protect the civilian population. They see us as the Enemy.

How can you claim to have experience with over 800,000 sworn officers to be able to make an appraisal such as that? 1% of 800,000 is 8,000 officers. Do you claim to have had experience or some sort of insight into the attitudes and demeanor of even 1% of sworn police officers in the United States? I do not see how that is probable.

So they will bash us, shoot us, wrongfully incarcerate us, torture us in custody...they will do all of these things quite willingly, because they know that when push comes to shove, every single time their superiors or a judge will back them to the hilt, instead of the civilian public.

Really?

Do a google search and type in just three words. "Police Officer Convicted."

If the system were so slanted in favor of the police, then how were all of these officers convicted in a court of law?

Do another google search and type in just three words. "Police Department Sued."

If the system were so slanted in favor of the police and against the public, then how were all of these police departments sued in civil court? How did the plaintiffs probably receive a hefty settlement or judgement in the form of cash if judges backed police to the hilt instead of the civilian public?

It seems you have exaggerated the amount to which police departments and officers are "untouchable."

Because of the legislation introduced to combat the fictitious threat of terrorism, police officers are now fully legally and culturally empowered to impersonate Judge Dredd, with impunity. Therefore, that is exactly what they do.

Oh really? Name a case where legislation, spawned by the threat of terroism, has allowed a police officer to play judge, jury and exocutioner. Show me one case where a police officer has arrested someone for a crime and they have been held without trial

Truth is, this is another exaggeration of what really happens and how "terrorism legislation" effects the common criminal. Truth is, it doesnt.

My brother in law is an avid Air Soft player.

He refuses to take his "toys" (which can pierce your skin) outside of the compounds, and when he travels with them they are locked up in a carry case in the trunk.

They look, and even feel as real as the brands they mimic. The only time you can tell the difference is by shooting the guns.

In a way I feel bad for the cop responding. How would he of have known it was fake if it wasn't obvious? Why would you hold that against him? He felt his life was in immediate danger.. someone was pointing a gun to him. He had to do something, and because he thought he was using a real gun he reacted with appropriate force by using his own gun.

The mentally disabled man was in the wrong for waving such a gun around. Where was his family to stop him?
This could of have been prevented if he was properly supervised in the first place.

Don't they have tasers when they aren't sure?, if not it's about time they had longer range ones. Pretty rediculous the amount of times i've heard about a man being shot for carrying a toy or some other item mistaken for a gun.

yes there is a way to know if it is a fake gun or not.The first clue would be the lack of bullets coming from it.second would the red tip that is required to be sold.Third would be the poor fellow pointing it at you while making the "pow" sound.

reply to post by deadeyedick


I am assuming this is your response to me because it is the only part of the quoted post that I did not post. Please edit the post so that it does not look like you quoted me as saying something a rediculous as this.

yes there is a way to know if it is a fake gun or not.The first clue would be the lack of bullets coming from it.second would the red tip that is required to be sold.Third would be the poor fellow pointing it at you while making the "pow" sound.

First, how rediculous.

Second, how rediculous. The red tip can easily be painted over or broke off. Some replicas do not require a red tip. We have already covered this.

Third. how rediculous.

reply to post by areyouserious2010


Yea sorry about that.

If it was removed or painted over that should have been reported.All toy guns are required to have this.There was no mention of this being a replica.

Originally posted by InnerTruths
My brother in law is an avid Air Soft player.

He refuses to take his "toys" (which can pierce your skin) outside of the compounds, and when he travels with them they are locked up in a carry case in the trunk.

They look, and even feel as real as the brands they mimic. The only time you can tell the difference is by shooting the guns.

In a way I feel bad for the cop responding. How would he of have known it was fake if it wasn't obvious? Why would you hold that against him? He felt his life was in immediate danger.. someone was pointing a gun to him. He had to do something, and because he thought he was using a real gun he reacted with appropriate force by using his own gun.

The mentally disabled man was in the wrong for waving such a gun around. Where was his family to stop him?
This could of have been prevented if he was properly supervised in the first place.

That just shows that your brother is a wise man.
It would be false to say that cops cant distinguish between a real gun or a paintball gun.
The c02 bottle is the first clue.the oversized barrel is the second.the paintballs coming out would be a third.

Originally posted by deadeyedick

Originally posted by InnerTruths
My brother in law is an avid Air Soft player.

He refuses to take his "toys" (which can pierce your skin) outside of the compounds, and when he travels with them they are locked up in a carry case in the trunk.

They look, and even feel as real as the brands they mimic. The only time you can tell the difference is by shooting the guns.

In a way I feel bad for the cop responding. How would he of have known it was fake if it wasn't obvious? Why would you hold that against him? He felt his life was in immediate danger.. someone was pointing a gun to him. He had to do something, and because he thought he was using a real gun he reacted with appropriate force by using his own gun.

The mentally disabled man was in the wrong for waving such a gun around. Where was his family to stop him?
This could of have been prevented if he was properly supervised in the first place.

That just shows that your brother is a wise man.
It would be false to say that cops cant distinguish between a real gun or a paintball gun.
The c02 bottle is the first clue.the oversized barrel is the second.the paintballs coming out would be a third.

I'm not talking about paintball guns, I am talking about pellet guns. They are different, and are usually specifically designed to replicate the real thing. The pellet gun doesn't have the oversized compartments. There are no visible C02 bottles neither, as they fit snugly inside the design.
Also take into consideration of electronic guns as well.
And at first glance a police officer cannot distinguish the difference, thats why there is such strict laws to conceal and carry such "toys" (at least here in Canada, I imagine in the states they are probably more relaxed).

Can you tell which is which? Especially in the heat of the moment when you arrive on scene and see a man pointing one of these at you?