Jesus, John Galt, Howard Roark all preach the same message. Was Jesus an Objectivist?

reply to post by filosophia


I don't disagree that the bible has been altered over the years, but the one we have today does condone slavery, and no where in it does it say that Jesus was mocking slavery when he spoke of it in parables.

But I like your thread and your opinions.

If you don't give the drug addict 50$, somebody else probably will. But I see your point. Cruel to be kind.

I'm afraid that is the paradox of this whole debate, the fact that there will almost always be an enabler makes the objectivist positive efforts rarely effective


Or he will go out and kill or rob someone of $50, like drug addicts often do. Can it be argued that if you gave him the $50, you did good by possibly preventing potential bad? It is indeed a paradox!

As for the profile pic...thank you, I was a little drunk, but I had a good hairday

reply to post by Odette


That could be argued, but unless you could guarantee that you could always have 50 to give him and that he would never hurt anyone while he was high, the end result will be inevitably be that someone will be put in harms way. Not to mention that the addicts overall wellness is neglected. Its just a matter of delaying the inevitable

Originally posted by Torgo
reply to post by filosophia

 

I don't disagree that the bible has been altered over the years, but the one we have today does condone slavery, and no where in it does it say that Jesus was mocking slavery when he spoke of it in parables.

Another contradiction in the bible? What? The book that God wrote?

Why is it so difficult to have original ideas? I hate when people quote the bible like it is gods autobiography that couldn't have ever been manipulated to gain power...

reply to post by TheThirdAdam



I understand what you are saying completely. But maybe the good/bad is in the eye of the giver/non-giver.
I deal with two bums on a regular basis. One is an old man who hang out at my local grocery store. I know he is an alcoholic and he buys alcohol with the money he begs of people claiming he is hungry. I always give him a little something. Not because I agree with what he is doing, but because I know there is no hope or joy for him, and getting drunk is probably the only little pleasure he has left, even if it just enables him to forget his sorrows for a while. The other bum I deal with is a man in his mid 30's, standing at a traffic light on his way to work, asking for money because he has no job or home. I refuse to give him anything. Because he looks young, healthy and strong enough, and by giving, I will do more harm in the long run. Will you, being objective, deal with both cases in the same way?

Excuse my grammar, english not my first language.

Sorry, I mean bum standing at traffic light on MY way to work. He is unemployed.

Originally posted by TheThirdAdam
Why is it so difficult to have original ideas? I hate when people quote the bible like it is gods autobiography that couldn't have ever been manipulated to gain power...

You're the one who's trying to twist the bible and Jesus to fit your own personal philosophical/political beliefs here, I'm merely posting what it actually says. You can't state with any more certainty than anyone else what the bible originally said, but we can go on what it says now, and that is that people should be submissive to their governments and pay taxes because God placed them here for our benefit.

I'm certainly not a Christian, btw.

reply to post by Torgo


Lol, no kidding... the only thing that this has proved is ideas are all subjective to interpretation. Like I said earlier, im not trying to convert anyones beliefs to match mine... just fun to talk about

My bosses all adore Ayn Rand; I think she was despicable. Love this "Angry Flower" cartoon titled: Atlas Shrugged 2: One Hour Later." It's oh-so-true...

reply to post by TheThirdAdam

Who do you worship, God or needs?

Duplicity is part of objectivism. This can be understood by needs, as you say. If I seek the supreme good in life for my self, then I am duplicitous. I say I am seeking good, but really seeking for gain to my own needs. If I say I am seeking good to be rewarded by God, then I am again duplicitous. If I seek good to avoid punishment, then I am again embracing duplicity. Each of these is evidence of pride. We need to look at the root cause of all problems in life. Pride is the source of this root and ends in the deprivation of rights that should be accorded to others. Prejudice, hatred, selfishness, greed, averse and the like are all products of self worship. This is idol worship in the eyes of God. Good is its own reward and is not based on punishment or reward. True reward comes from loving others. Love is the point. Love is absent when selfishness is the prime mover in the mind.

Is your reflection of your God that of a slave to the will of all men, condemned to be at the mercy of all needs?

Needs are irrelevant. We are all equally in need. God is the good shepherd that leads us. We do not walk in life, we are walked. If you think you are walking on your own, even if in an unsaved state of rebellion, you are still walked. All actions have an opposite reaction in nature. There are no choices you can make apart from the answer provided by God. You have two things that you do in life. Two only. I have a standing wager on ATS to give $20 to anyone who can name one thing that is done apart from thinking or moving to stay alive. All of the billions of needs that you have are already met by God and you do NONE of them. Name one act that you do to make yourself live apart from moving or thinking and I'll mail you $20. God provides your needs.

If it is moral to only serve others, then how does one serve God?

If we realize that God is one of the others, then we also see that we are one of the others as well. Equality demands that all of us are seen as equal in need. Objectivism divides all into a hierarchic order from greatest to least. This fosters competition from pride and not cooperation from a standpoint of community. Jesus said a life of abundance. This is for everyone according to His riches and not our perceived needs. In reality, our true needs are already met. The rest of the needs are created by us.

Philippians 4:19
And my God will meet all your needs according to his glorious riches in Christ Jesus.

I'll ask again. Do you activate the cones and rods in your eyes for vision? Do you digest your food? Do you make the sun shine or the ocean salty? None of these are ours to claim. We think and move; no more.

Why would Jesus say that he came that we would have life abundantly and not say to have life enslaved to any will but our own?

Abundance will arise from our own thoughts and actions when we seek God's will and not our own. Jesus came to assist us in autonomy and to provide our salvation from the material world. This requires a commitment to others or we are only seeking our own good. False abundance is taken by the individual as reward and ends in suffering. True abundance comes from suffering first and then reward as the result. This type of reward lasts forever and extends through the lives of those we touch.

Example: If you smoke, you get cancer. This is taking reward ending in suffering. The reward was not for the taking so the law answers the action.

Example: If you work for an education, you get a better job. The reward form the better job can buy a car. Instead of riding a bike to work, you drive, allowing free time to do the things you enjoy. This is again an example of compounding reward from suffering.

There are no examples contrary to the rules of suffering. Suffer for the right things and you see the fruit of your labor. Steal reward form others and you suffer. Do this long enough and you destroy your soul.

I am by no means against giving and helping others, but it is for the purpose of creating a better world for my self. Others may benefit, but so do I.

The means will end in suffering for you and others. Choice, chance and the actions of others is all that affects us in life. Chance is not random at all. Chance is the providence of God as seen by destiny.

Objectivism, applied socially, is a phillosophy of mutual trade benefits. The golden rule applies, this even works with charity if you think about it...

I will not argue that objectivism is the rule of the day. How do you think it is working out for the poor countries who are raped for resources? How is it working out for Africa? We can simply wash our hands of them and say that they should be seeking for their own good, but reality and the observation of history gives us the answer: we are all in this together.

"The man who speaks to you of sacrifice is speaking of slaves and masters, and intends to be the master."

God does not desire to be master, he seeks to guide in love. To suggest that God is in need would be folly. His desire is our love to mirror his. Judgment will happen according to destiny and the laws of nature. We see an angry God judging us. This is far from the God of the Bible. The laws of nature judge our actions by reaction. All systems in nature are self-correcting. Judgment happens by the mechanism of the two things we actually do in life. We move and we think. That's it.

You and I can choose our reaction to the others comments. If we are filled with pride, our answer will come from selfishness. If we are filled with love for the other person, our answer will likely provide a path to truth. Pride will always blind us to truth. Objectivism is based on pride. Altruism is based on love. There is only one correct answer.

Quote from my blog: "No matter where we go, there we will be, and until we realize that we can only be where we go, we will only be where we are."
LINK

Originally posted by sylvie
My bosses all adore Ayn Rand; I think she was despicable. Love this "Angry Flower" cartoon titled: Atlas Shrugged 2: One Hour Later." It's oh-so-true...

that cartoon ignores the fact that they were self sufficient in their hide away, so they must have been tilling the soil a long time before the end of the book.

And none of the main characters had servants, that would be the antagonists that have servants.

reply to post by SuperiorEd


I can see that you have honestly given this alot of time and effort, and I must give you the respect that is due to a man who if nothing else shows real integrity. I realize that my first reply may have been a bit condescending and I hope that you will accept my humble apologies for being rude.

Do not mistake this as agreement because I do not think that I have ever disagreed with another human being as much as I do at this moment with you. I started to retort but realized that I could spend hours trying to reason with you and would probably not make any progress. So I will let it go for now and take comfort in the fact that you are only depriving yourself of the life that you could have enjoyed.

I am not saying that you are not worth my time, but I really can't justify spending my Friday evening going back and forth with you for the sake of having an argument. I am willing to pick this up another time but for now i'm going to put our debate on hold.

Ps-
have you ever really read the fountainhead? You should read it and pay special attention to the presence of Ellsworth Toohey and compare his philosophy to your own. I feel like i'm talking to him right now.

Originally posted by SuperiorEd

I do not expect you to understand where I am coming from on this, but at least consider what I am saying here. The root of all problems in this world arise form how we view our position here on earth. Pride results in objectivism. Humility and love result in the fruit of altruism.

Here is the article.

---

It is an error to believe that your body owns the soul. No human possesses the soul. Most of us are brought up believing that the nature of this world exists within this backwards dualistic mindset, forcing us to willfully buy into the false notion of objectivism—viewing reality as an identity we own. Not only does this mindset cause us to grasp at our own souls as possessions, we tread on the dignity and rights of countless souls around us in the wake of our choices. Our misunderstanding of what it means to be moral creatures resides in this false belief of the body possessing the soul.

If we flip this counterfeit, egocentric view back to reality, we see that the body does not possess the soul, but the soul possesses the body as a gift from God. Understanding this one point allows us to see the world as it truly is. Buying into objectivism merely denies this reality and tramples the bestowal we owe back to God under a metaphorical foot of pride. Nevertheless, true reality will not be so easily placated. The bill for this false mindset of egoism will eventually come due for each individual. Only Christ can pay this bill in full.

Life requires a choice from each of us: Either we steal away the gift of life as a possession through egoism, or we honor God by paying the gift forward for the good of others through altruism. Stealing gives the reward of what is taken. Giving pays back abundantly and endlessly, across many lives and throughout many lifetimes. The choice should be easy to make when viewed according to the truth of where the soul resides. Law is an unnecessary boundary for the altruistic individual.

Egoism—the pursuit of rational selfishness and the pursuit of personal happiness—is the deception of our egocentric society. On the surface, this materialistic, me-centered mindset seems like a plausible philosophy for personal advancement. The immediate rewards of the self-centered mindset are undeniable and hard to pass up. These rewards are immediate and seem to emanate endlessly from the fountainhead of temporary abundance and perceived security. It is easy to shrug off altruism for fear of uncertainty and loss. Egoism is the easy path to follow but ultimately destroys the soul in the process. No legal requirements will be enough to hold back egoism in a materialistic society.

Altruism—the denial of self in loving-kindness to others—represents the only truth that can set the world free. Taking on the title of Christian ultimately requires the sacrifice of being Christ like. This is the narrow path leading to a true life of abundance. This wealth cannot be lost and is the only way to find contentment in life.

Does altruism require us to give a beggar a dime, and then pay for our lives dime by dime? Do we give our way forward in life as payment for the choices made by others? Are we the beneficiaries of our own lives or debtors to God? The true individual is the one who dares to live for the needs of others, fully considering himself to be equally in need. The true individual recognizes that God ultimately carries our burdens and gives us all that we possess in this short life.



Ayn Rand - Objectivism

"My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute."

Paul of Tarsus- Altruism

1 Corinthians 13:4-13

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

edit on 26-8-2011 by SuperiorEd because: (no reason given)

SuperiorEd....Your understanding and and recount of the content of the work is commendable. However, we are but a speck of dust on the arms of the all that there is. We should not be so egocentric.

Originally posted by TheThirdAdam
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

Ps-
have you ever really read the fountainhead? You should read it and pay special attention to the presence of Ellsworth Toohey and compare his philosophy to your own. I feel like i'm talking to him right now.

Interesting observation. You are missing what it means to be enslaved. Ayn Rand also missed the boat on this one by swapping truth for its opposite. The video clip below reveals this. The classic trick of the adversary is to twist truth in a reflection. This is counterfeit truth at its essence. I use the video below since you compared me to Ellsworth. I am quite confident you are seeing truth in a reflection here. It looks real until you really live it out and bear its fruit. You will find that it leaves you empty if love for others is not the primary focus. Take any truth you think you see with objectivism and then reveal the opposite and you will see that I am correct. The Bible will back me on this.

Read this to see what you think:

Galatians 3

23 Before the coming of this faith,[j] we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

4:

1 What I am saying is that as long as an heir is underage, he is no different from a slave, although he owns the whole estate. 2 The heir is subject to guardians and trustees until the time set by his father. 3 So also, when we were underage, we were in slavery under the elemental spiritual forces[a] of the world. 4 But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship. 6 Because you are his sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.” 7 So you are no longer a slave, but God’s child; and since you are his child, God has made you also an heir.

Paul’s Concern for the Galatians

8 Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. 9 But now that you know God—or rather are known by God—how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable forces[d]? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? 10 You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! 11 I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you.

Originally posted by blazenresearcher

Originally posted by SuperiorEd

SuperiorEd....Your understanding and and recount of the content of the work is commendable. However, we are but a speck of dust on the arms of the all that there is. We should not be so egocentric.

But a speck that is loved as if we were the only speck in Whoville. Infinity cannot be limited to size or we reduce it to weakness. God is not finite or limited in any way. We see God as having trouble holding it ALL together. Not so. Apart from Him, we do two things only. We think and we move. That's it. $20 if you can give me one thing you do to live apart form thinking and moving. Every need is met to allow us to think and move. "No matter where we go, there we will be, and until we realize that we can only be where we go, we will only be where we are." LINK

This is a post from another thread that gives a good example of how I (as an objectivist) approach charity.

Originally posted by TheThirdAdam

Originally posted by GypsK

How did I come to this point? If I would tell you the story of my entire life you would probably think that I am suffering from unresolved issues which lead me to think this way, lol... In rough notes:
I grew up having nothing, had louzy jobs, and a lot of debt... almost no food on the table at the end of the month, etc, you know the drill.
Then at one point we where going to loose everything we own to debt-collectors so we desided to beat them to it and sold just about everything we owned except for our cloths.
By using logic and comon sense we came through it (me and my husband). No help from anyone, just beying smart with money and take small but logic steps and little risk... and a lot of hard work.
Now we have the bussiness, a house, two cars and money in the bank. Which are all 'moderate and modest', but a lot, compared to what others have and don't have. We both are content with it, a job for life, a place to live for life and something saved...it's enough...

It didn't take special skills or rare knowledge to get here, just patience and effort.

Which is what leads me to think that, if I could do it, then anyone can do it! I've tried to explain this to may people but most just won't hear it or accept it and those who hear it often just needs a little push in the back.

This is why I believe in objectivism, because when you take control of your life and live responsibly you will find that anyone can make it on their own. That story is something that you should be extremely proud of. I have a very similar background myself and I know exactly where you are coming from.

That being said, you are probably a lot like me when it comes to karma. You understand what it's like to be at the bottom and have nobody to pull you up. Every time I see someone in that situation I have an overwhelming urge to try to rescue them as I'm sure you do as well. Consequently, I have been burned by those that I am sure had the best of intentions in the beginning but somehow got derailed from their goals.

This is what I'm talking about when I say don't be an enabler. If you think back to when you were in that rut, you will remember what made you decide to change was the fact that you knew that if you didn't do something differently and change your mentality then you were not going to survive. If people would have kept bailing you out then you would have never had an impending reason to do something about the problem.

Now here is the disclaimer. Bad things happen to good people, even the most responsible people can end up in a tight spot and need a hand. These are the ones who need our help the most because it is they that make things like jobs and charity possible. I'm not talking about the elitist, I'm talking about people like you that hire locally and help those in your community. You know who will make the most of the help that you give and who will just take it and be in the same situation the next week, use your judgment. Look at it this way, the ones that you knew wouldn't take your help and get better are best helped by doing nothing but telling them your story. you can sleep better at night knowing that you helped them in the long run by "giving the extra push" as you called it.

I do get what you and others are saying in this thread and I'm thinking all of it trough. It's not healthy to worry about others all the time, I know that.
But still I stay with my point that it's not good to do 'nothing' either...

Talking to someone and being supportive of them while they work through their problems isn't doing nothing, even if it isn't the kind of help that they want, sometimes it's just what they need. In situations like this, what someone really needs to grow is not what they want, but if you give them what they want it only prolongs the problem that needs to be worked out (most of the time).

Take it for what it is worth, if you disagree then that your right to do so. But this is the approach that Galt and Roark used, and because it gives those in need exactly what they need to better themselves, I would say that Jesus probably took this stance as well. That is the basis for my comparison between them. Nothing more, nothing less.