Iran & Iraq

Before the First World War weren't the two countries as one?

Is it plausible they'll be reunified sometime in the future?

What would be the result of this action, backing from Russia & China?

How powerful is Iran's modern military? One person said that they've been buying stuff off the Russians like crazy, and have even managed to get their hands on some French Exocet missiles. While another said their military is old and outdated?

The borderlands between Iran and Iraq have never made any sense. Rather than defining any real ethnic homeland, the border merely marks where two expanding imperial dynasties -- the Ottomans and Persians -- ran into each other in the Sixteenth Century

The final treaty signed some two centuries later split Kurds, Shiites and Arabs between two alien overlords along a vague line drawn somewhere in the wild mountains.

Even the break-up of the Ottoman Empire after World War One didn't improve matters much, as the non-Turkish provinces were turned over to the British and French as mandates under the League of Nations rather than formed into logical nation-states.

Saddam Hussein had clawed his way to the top of the ruling junta of Iraq and took advantage of the chaos unleashed by the recent Iranian Revolution to shift the disputed border back in Iraq's favor, with the excuse being that the predominantly Arab population of this region would prefer being part of the predominantly Arab state of Iraq.

When two of the world's leading suppliers of oil go to war, the world has to take sides, but when the war pits a corrupt dictatorship against a fanatic theocracy, it's hard to know which side to take

I can't see Iran and Iraq becoming one country anytime in the near future.

As for the military strength of Iran for a country of its size its quite impressive but so was Saddam military at the start of the first Gulf War.

When you compare Irans military to the United States yes it is old and outdated. But in the scope of the middle east it is quite strong perhaps only behind Israel.

Dude, if you're going to copy and paste, at least give credit to the source.
users.erols.com...

Originally posted by AceOfBase
Dude, if you're going to copy and paste, at least give credit to the source.
users.erols.com...

My bad theres my link ^

Originally posted by Flyboy211
Before the First World War weren't the two countries as one?

Iran and Iraq have been seperate for centuries.
I'm still doing some reading up on it but it looks like the border as we know it know was made in 1847 and declared in the Treaty of Erzeroum.
It seems that they were seperate regions even prior to that though.

THE IRAN-IRAQ BORDER 1840-1958
Evolution of the boundary: (1) Second Treaty of Erzeroum (1847)

For the period under review three principal phases of diplomatic activity have shaped the course of the Iran-Iraq boundary. Each has resulted in the signature of treaties defining or modifying the boundary, in 1847, 1913, and 1937 respectively.

The second Treaty of Erzeroum of 1847 and its Explanatory Note of 1848 were the culmination of four years of intense negotiations between the British, Russians, Ottomans and Persians. The land boundary was allocated for its entire length while further south a territorial limit was rather loosely defined along the east bank of the Shatt al Arab river. Reference to the nineteenth century documentation in the volumes, which include substantial sections of the original, handwritten diary of the Turco-Pcrsian Boundary Commission, will highlight the massive problems encountered in precisely establishing the Pcrso-Ottoman divide.

The complete distaste for compromise shown by the Persians and Ottomans led an exasperated and impatient British Foreign Secretary, Lord Palmerston, to comment in 1851 that "the boundary line between Turkey and Persia can never be finally settled except by an arbitrary decision on the part of Great Britain and Russia".

[edit on 20-8-2004 by AceOfBase]

The last time Iran and Iraq were as one was before the Arab invasion of Iran in the 600's, under Sassanian rule. The capital of Eran-Shahr (Iran) was actually close to where modern Baghdad is, a place called Ctesiphone (pronounced something like "Tisfoon"). The empire also encompassed most of the Caucasus, Central Asia, Anatolia, parts of modern Afghanistan and Pakistan in addition to the modern Gulf states.

Iranians are Persian, not Arab, while Iraq is predominantly Arab. I don't think the two countries were ever "naturally" one, although they may have been under the rule of the same conqueror at various times.

-koji K.

I dont think that Iraq & Iran need to be reunifie. What is needed is a peaceful co existance between the two countries.

Originally posted by koji_K
Iranians are Persian

Who told you that!? Iranians are most definately not "persian."

Originally posted by naked_turk

Originally posted by koji_K
Iranians are Persian

Who told you that!? Iranians are most definately not "persian."

alright, perhaps i'm mistaken. then what is the demographic makeup of iran? i know they speak Farsi, for which the imperial name is Persian, and their culture was Persian before Islam replaced their existing religions.

-koji K.

Originally posted by koji_K
alright, perhaps i'm mistaken. then what is the demographic makeup of iran? i know they speak Farsi, for which the imperial name is Persian, and their culture was Persian before Islam replaced their existing religions.

-koji K.

Almost.

According to *official* Iranian statistics, Iran is exactly 51% Persian (The number 51 is significant because they can claim to have a majority with it). In truth, most experts agree that up to 45% of Iranians are either Azeri Turks or of some other Turkic origin, with about 35% Persian (and dialects such as Lori), the rest being mostly Kurdish, with a small Arab minority.

Why the lie? Because certain Farsi chauvinists dominate the government and try to bang into the populations heads that "we are persian, white, and aryan!!!!" in order to arouse some sort of united nationalistic pride from everyone. I know this because I grew up with it. As an Azeri, I never understood as a kid why our school textbooks never even aknowledged our existance. It was all "Persian persian persian!"

All Iranians MUST be educated in Farsi at school and no other language is allowed at educational facilities. What they're trying to do is destroy the other ethnicities and make them "Persian." It's actually quite sad.

Originally posted by naked_turk

Originally posted by koji_K
alright, perhaps i'm mistaken. then what is the demographic makeup of iran? i know they speak Farsi, for which the imperial name is Persian, and their culture was Persian before Islam replaced their existing religions.

-koji K.

Almost.

According to *official* Iranian statistics, Iran is exactly 51% Persian (The number 51 is significant because they can claim to have a majority with it). In truth, most experts agree that up to 45% of Iranians are either Azeri Turks or of some other Turkic origin, with about 35% Persian (and dialects such as Lori), the rest being mostly Kurdish, with a small Arab minority.

Why the lie? Because certain Farsi chauvinists dominate the government and try to bang into the populations heads that "we are persian, white, and aryan!!!!" in order to arouse some sort of united nationalistic pride from everyone. I know this because I grew up with it. As an Azeri, I never understood as a kid why our school textbooks never even aknowledged our existance. It was all "Persian persian persian!"

All Iranians MUST be educated in Farsi at school and no other language is allowed at educational facilities. What they're trying to do is destroy the other ethnicities and make them "Persian." It's actually quite sad.

this is interesting. i hope to visit iran some day and didn't know this. thank you for the reply. the most i ever read about iran's demography was just "iran is persian, its neighbours are not".

-koji K.

Originally posted by koji_K

this is interesting. i hope to visit iran some day and didn't know this. thank you for the reply. the most i ever read about iran's demography was just "iran is persian, its neighbours are not".

-koji K.

Yepp. This whole Persian domination over Iran is quite new actually. Before this century, all dynasties that ruled Iran, going all the way back to when we separated from the Arabs were Azeri Turks.

The current trend was started with Reza Shah, a Persian who took power through a coup in 1925. He attempted to create a false nationwide culture of "Persianness."

In my home town, traditionally an Azeri city, barely any of the kids now speak Turkish -- Now, all they speak is Farsi, and simply understand Turkish. About 80% of the town is Turkish, the rest being Kurdish, Armenian, and Assyrian, but because of these chauvinists none of these kids are even learning their own languages.



[edit on 6-9-2004 by naked_turk]

Originally posted by Flyboy211
Before the First World War weren't the two countries as one?

No. Saudi and Iraq were Mesopotamia before the Sykes Picot Agreement (made in the beginning of the 20th-century). Two excellent movies to help get an idea of how it was is "The Four Feathers" with Heath Ledger and of course, "Lawrence of Arabia." Anyone interested in that period and in Iraq should definitely see those movies to get a better understanding of that region and its people.

Is it plausible they'll be reunified sometime in the future?

I doubt it. The Iranians are not Arabs. And let's hope not. The last thing Iraq needs or Iraqis want (unless they're very committed Shia) is a theocracy. We'd be doubly screwed if that went down.

What would be the result of this action, backing from Russia & China?

Russia would probably love to get their guys in there and exploit their anger at us. Remember, despite the ending of the cold war, the Russian government will always be a danger to us and not trustworthy. So we say we're friends. Yes, maybe on the surface. But we still have differences that are very real. Don't let the groupthink fool ya. As for China, their oil demand is rising. Fast. So, I'm sure they have every reason to cultivate relations with Iraqis. And probably Russia (for their oil). They are neighbors, too, of course.

How powerful is Iran's modern military?

I wouldn't worry too much about it. What's worrisome about Iran is that the majority of the population is young and itching. We had a great ally in them, the people, before we went and invaded Iraq. A population that once yearned for our style of government now despises us for occupying their neighbor. It's jacked up their nationalism.

Originally posted by naked_turk

Originally posted by koji_K

this is interesting. i hope to visit iran some day and didn't know this. thank you for the reply. the most i ever read about iran's demography was just "iran is persian, its neighbours are not".

-koji K.

Yepp. This whole Persian domination over Iran is quite new actually. Before this century, all dynasties that ruled Iran, going all the way back to when we separated from the Arabs were Azeri Turks.

The current trend was started with Reza Shah, a Persian who took power through a coup in 1925. He attempted to create a false nationwide culture of "Persianness."

In my home town, traditionally an Azeri city, barely any of the kids now speak Turkish -- Now, all they speak is Farsi, and simply understand Turkish. About 80% of the town is Turkish, the rest being Kurdish, Armenian, and Assyrian, but because of these chauvinists none of these kids are even learning their own languages.

[edit on 6-9-2004 by naked_turk]

N_T your English is exceptionally good - far better than many native English speakers on ATS.

Where did you learn it?


[edit on 7-9-2004 by LordofLard]

N_T your English is exceptionally good - far better than many native English speakers on ATS.

Where did you learn it?

Thanks.

I'm actually residing in Canada right now, so I'm exposed to English everyday and speak like a native

irans history


Turks and Mongols, 10th - 15th century CE


Qajar Dynasty, 1794 - 1925


OK if you add this all up it was about 3 centuries maximum that Turks ruled Iran. not since Arab invasion which is about 14 centuries!

and yes majority of Iran are Persians whether you like it or not. Sorry if you are into Turks rule then better move to Turkey



I am sorry if you feel oppressed but there is no reason to distort history to make yourself feel better! O.K.