What is intelligence?

A discussion in another thread has led me to ask these questions:

What is Intelligence? What defines it? At what point do we consider an animal to have intelligence? Does intelligence rely strictly on IQ, and if so how do you measure IQ in terms of an animal?

And on top of this, what does it mean to be self aware? They say animals that recognize themselves in a mirror are Self Aware, but does this really mean anything? Does the animal actually think on its own, Have thoughts and feelings?

And Lastly, what about creativity? Do animals show creativity? Is a bird’s song creative? Is a crow solving a problem to get at the food showing creativity? What about mice solving a maze?
__________________________________________________________________________________

Looking at all of these factors at what point do we consider an animal to be intelligent? Does it need to have all of these traits? And are there any animals that are as intelligent as a human? Some say Dolphins, Mice, Elephants, primates, Ravens/Crows, Dogs, Cats, etc. Show signs of intelligence. Some show signs of being self aware, but do any show signs of creativity? This all boils down to an idea of quantifying intelligence in terms of these 3 things: IQ, Creativity, Self aware. Or is there more to it? Do we need to add other traits to the list to really define intelligence?

The ability to learn thought trial and error. Something most governments lack

*Adaptability to a new environment or to changes in the current environment
*Capacity for knowledge and the ability to acquire it
*Capacity for reason and abstract thought
*Ability to comprehend relationships
*Ability to evaluate and judge
*Capacity for original and productive thought

Source

non-human input, gifts by destiny powers, some call angel or god

reply to post by Nikola014


So from your source you are claiming indeed creativity is a part of intelligence? And if so do you think any animals show creativity, and therefore possible intelligence? It seems the rest of the Items on that list some animals exhibit in some way. It seems it always comes down to either the creativity or the self aware point when trying to define intelligence.

So do you think there are any intelligent animals? And if so can you apply your list to them with examples? This is not a troll mind you I am asking this in all seriousness. I am really trying to collect opinions and ideas that will define at what point an animal is intelligent, and how to rank this intelligence compared to other examples.

reply to post by Bullcookies


Ok leaving the politics out of it, can you expand this in terms of animal intelligence? Does a rat in a maze learn by trial and error and therefore can be deemed on this point alone to be intelligent? And is there some way to rank this intelligence against other animals including humans?

reply to post by icepack


Are you saying then that without god there is no intelligence? As in it requires a soul? And then extending this to animals some claim they have no soul, so this would by default exclude intelligence in animals?

very good quistione
imo most animals are smarter then us
and self aware well thats a difficult one
but i do think animals are self aware,but also whats self aware insert same quistions as u asked about intelligence
most people tyhink cats or dogs are stupid well
ive seen dogs act in ways u couldn possibly imagine,cats aswell
i mean in alot of ways animals are smarter then us
i think the only reason most people are brainwashed into thinkin animals are like a rock or somthing without feeling is cuz
the industie wants to keep slaughtering millions of animals evry houer so they ken keep making millions
imo offcourse

and if someone doesn agree then answer the ops guistioneeeeee
edit cuz this popped in my head
at what point do we consider a human to be intelligent??

reply to post by byeluvolk

soul and intelligence are two different things, imo
i see it like this, humans have a spirit and a soul, and humans are influenced by "higher" beings that drive and guide everybodies destiny.

reply to post by icecold7


Are you serious, with your grammar and spelling? Are you in so much of a rush that you can't proof-read your post for errors?

To answer your question, yes, I do think you are intelligent. Anything that can think, make a decision, is intelligent. A computer is not intelligent, it is programmed to make decisions by an intelligent designer. You could say that life is programmed in a similar way, by DNA, or by God, but that would take this topic off course very quickly.

reply to post by aclimbatized


No that is the topic exactly. The idea of what exactly comprises intelligence in animals, then extending this to AI. This was the direction this thread was headed all along. Comparing what we consider “living intelligence” to “artificial intelligence”. And then the fact that it is "simulated” does that matter? You see posts claiming we are made by aliens? Are we to them an organic computer running some AI software? The idea was to first define intelligence in living critters. What makes this intelligence real? And can it be quantified so you can say on a scale of 1 to 10 humans are a 10 and a mouse is 1. Then rank each creature in this scale. Then apply this scale to the various forms of AI.

reply to post by icepack


So the question is how does this tie to intelligence however? And do animals have this guidance as well? Does our intelligence come from an outside source? This guidance is external input and we just react how it tells us? And we are not actually intelligent without this external input?

Originally posted by byeluvolk

What is Intelligence? What defines it? At what point do we consider an animal to have intelligence? Does intelligence rely strictly on IQ, and if so how do you measure IQ in terms of an animal?

I think there are many different types of intelligence, and the IQ test only tests one specific kind. My brother can fix anything and has never had any formal training. But he's definitely not what many would call 'booksmart'. Einstein failed maths at high school, yet he was one of the most brilliant minds there was. I've worked with handicapped people including the autistic. Few of them would ever even get through an IQ test, but one for example can tell you what day your birthday will be on for for any year you suggest. Another can do extremely complicated mathematics in his head, but struggles to read.

And on top of this, what does it mean to be self aware? They say animals that recognize themselves in a mirror are Self Aware, but does this really mean anything? Does the animal actually think on its own, Have thoughts and feelings?

This I have trouble with too. I guess it depends on what you classify as self awareness. The Self awareness test with animals and mirrors involves placing a dot of paint on the animal while it is asleep or unconscious, then showing it a mirror and seeing if it wipes the dot off it's face. Personally I think this has more to do with the level of the animals level of thinking and its capacity to recognise that the image is actually itself, rather than being self aware. But then again I can't think of a better test myself. My view is that every animal, maybe even plants are to some point self aware.

Think about it. If you exist, and you are aware of it, is this not self awareness? When my gf's cat licks its paws, whose paws does it think it’s licking? My mom' dog used to react crazily to any reflections thinking they were another animal. Gradually it realised it was just an image and now ignores it, I'm not sure however if it recognises it as itself though, or if it just knows it as an image. When I walk into the room though it gets excited and turns and runs at me though, not at the reflection of me, making me think it recognises that it is indeed a reflection. The next logical step it that it must realise the dog in the mirror is indeed itself....

And lastly, what about creativity? Do animals show creativity? Is a bird’s song creative? Is a crow solving a problem to get at the food showing creativity? What about mice solving a maze?

Also depends on what you believe creativity is. Creativity can be art, or an innovative way of doing something etc. I guess I put into one of classes of 'alternative' types of intelligence, and therefore yes animals can be creative. Birdsong - no, this is more an instinctual language. Crows - for sure, they have been recently shown to have intelligence akin to a prepubescent child, as well as mourning for there dead etc. Mice and a maze, not so sure either. They'll just try any route until they get to the cheese, and then memorise that specific route.

Looking at all of these factors at what point do we consider an animal to be intelligent? Does it need to have all of these traits? And are there any animals that are as intelligent as a human? Some say Dolphins, Mice, Elephants, primates, Ravens/Crows, Dogs, Cats, etc. Show signs of intelligence. Some show signs of being self aware, but do any show signs of creativity? This all boils down to an idea of quantifying intelligence in terms of these 3 things: IQ, Creativity, Self aware. Or is there more to it? Do we need to add other traits to the list to really define intelligence?

I'd say ravens/crows, dolphins and primates certainly can be as intelligent as some humans. The difference is the latter two do not have hands and cannot manipulate objects in a way that makes it easy for us to see how smart they are. Also none of them have developed a way of passing complex knowledge down through the generations. So any complex ideas die with that specific generation. There are of course exceptions but data storage, and our sophisticated language necessary to pass ideas from one individual to another is what sets humans apart.

Essentially humans are lucky for we have all the right tools to 'advance. opposable thumbs, large brains and a the physical ability to develop complex language to pass on ideas (and by this I mean the voice box as well as what’s in our head).

reply to post by Byeluvolk

And do animals have this guidance as well?

i think its called instinct or some people call 7th sense, like reacting before earthquakes etc.

Does our intelligence come from an outside source?

i dont know. i heard that before man-kind came to existence there were non-human beings already on this planet. i am not thinking of greys, but of interdimensional beings, they themselves are mass-free.

This guidance is external input and we just react how it tells us?

it seems to me, they are not external but in a differnt dimension and if they influence they interact with our realm. if you walk too close to an abyss, like on a coast or on mountains and you feel this rush of fear and panic, thats your guide. this feeling is initiated by non-human entities. as a human you have no control when it comes or if it comes, its other-directed.

And we are not actually intelligent without this external input?

i dont know, fact is, when you were born, they already existed, so you came into this (their ?) system because they guided your ancestors, so you would come to existence.
you would not exist without their doings, some call them maker, creator or spark of life.

reply to post by 1littlewolf


Ah good start but there are not rhetorical questions. I am asking you specifically what you think. I want to create a list of what people think makes up intelligence in living creature. I want to keep track of your ideas here, and make a definition if you will of what people on ATS define as intelligence. Then this list can then be applied to the real question of artificial intelligence, including the argument that we humans are an alien AI running on some organic computer.


****EDIT
sorry I know you did specifically address some the questions, just wanting elaboration, to promote critical thinking to refine the definition is all.

Let me start it off. Maybe if you see what I write you will get what I am looking for.


1) Intelligence must be self-aware.
a. Meaning it can form an original thought.
b. Recognize itself as a separate entity from things around it.

This is hard to test for and define in the AI world. How does an AI routine have an original thought? Is it ever possible? Or will the AI only ever react to stimuli that the programmer foresaw and specifically told it to look for.

2) Intelligence must exhibit creativity.

This does not mean it has to create music that we find pleasing, or paint pictures we enjoy looking at. But rather it must show spontaneous desire to make something and go about doing so.

3) Intelligence must exhibit reasoning.

This means given a situation that has never before been experienced, it must be able to examine the situation and solve some form of logic puzzle. (The Raven making a tool to extract food from the “trap” is a perfect example of both 2 and 3)

4) Intelligence must exhibit communication.

Meaning it must attempt to communicate. Either directly as in speech or sign language, or indirectly as in making a record of its thoughts and saving them for some other entity to examine.



After collecting some input along these lines we can compile the ideas into what we as a whole define intelligence to be. We can then move to step 2 which is quantifying this data. As in how to test for it, how to measure if something is “more” or “less” intelligent. And finally to step 3, where we try to apply this information to rank various forms of intelligence, such as mice or dogs etc.

reply to post by byeluvolk


Tough question.

I think intellegence requires non-determinism. Merely being able to think logically is not a sign of intellegence, because automatons can follow logic. Illogical thinking and non-determinism is my guess.

The information contained within this link is all you will need to know about everything concerning intelligence, origins, life, and the purpose for life.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Watch this video on youtube where a mirror is put up for dolphins so they could see if they recognize themselves.
youtu.be...

fnord
2nd