Army Denies Commission to Deaf Cadet Keith Nolan

Originally posted by paraclete1
If I understand the way audits work, people are allowed to sit in on the class, but are not given credit for it in an educational degree. As for those who the service has allowed to remain on duty, the difference here is that they were originally capable.

However one must ask if they are 'capable' now to continue serving. If we are to prohibit thse who are not combat capable upon entry, then we must also prohibit those who become combat INcapable after the fact. The Army cearly does not do this, which is a gross double standard

My next concern would be if they allow the deaf to enter service, what happens when others want the same rights? A lot of people don't realize that there are limited slots in the service, primarily driven by budgets.

Limited slots is not something that the military is worried abut right now. Recruitment isn't exactly at its most successful in recent years.

How many disabled people could the services handle before combat readiness is affected. In the past, one you were injured, you were out, at least they've stop throwing out those we were capable of finishing their enlistment with little or no outside support.

Again this shows the double standard by the Army. If they are ging to prohibit someone at entry level, then the same should go for others after the fact.

Having decided my freshmen year of high school that I was going to join the Air Force, I can understand his desired to join, but I wouldn't have wanted to serve if I couldn't meet the duty requirements. If he really wants to serve, I'm sure there are enough civilian jobs out there on military bases where he could be capable of serving with pride. So I have to ask what it is that he's really looking for.

Have you joined? If so, thank you for your service. As far as civie jobs on base, yu are right, however there are many cmmissioned jobs that Cadet Nolan would also excel at, and that is his goal. Only an outdated and prejudicial policy is preventing him.

Explanation: I still haven't gotten an answer that resolves the following dilema...

Life and Deaf in the Military (by Christopher Black 3/27/2008) [lifeprint.com]

Classified as H-4, having severe hearing loss, these individuals are deemed by the military to be too different to accommodate into the existing military life. It has been determined by the military high ups that while those that can't hear can perform every other job in the United States, being a soldier requires that you catch every word being shouted at all times. To the Deaf community this is a form of discrimination that has no place in America, and that if allowed, many of their community would gladly serve (despite the low pay and bad food).

And yet ...

The helicopters traversed Mohmand, one of Pakistan’s seven tribal areas, skirted the north of Peshawar, and continued due east. The commander of DEVGRU’s Red Squadron, whom I will call James, sat on the floor, squeezed among ten other SEALs, Ahmed, and Cairo. (The names of all the covert operators mentioned in this story have been changed.) James, a broad-chested man in his late thirties, does not have the lithe swimmer’s frame that one might expect of a SEAL—he is built more like a discus thrower. That night, he wore a shirt and trousers in Desert Digital Camouflage, and carried a silenced Sig Sauer P226 pistol, along with extra ammunition; a CamelBak, for hydration; and gel shots, for endurance. He held a short-barrel, silenced M4 rifle. (Others SEALs had chosen the Heckler & Koch MP7.) A “blowout kit,” for treating field trauma, was tucked into the small of James’s back. Stuffed into one of his pockets was a laminated gridded map of the compound. In another pocket was a booklet with photographs and physical descriptions of the people suspected of being inside. He wore a noise-cancelling headset, which blocked out nearly everything besides his heartbeat.

Read more www.newyorker.com...

Personal Disclosure: Seems to me if they are supplying noise cancelling headsets which block out nearly everything for combat operations, then they definately can use deaf personel and save $$$.

P.S. Still seeking an answer from any current ATS USA military or veteran members as to why the double standard exists?

Originally posted by OmegaLogos




Personal Disclosure: Seems to me if they are supplying noise cancelling headsets which block out nearly everything for combat operations, then they definately can use deaf personel and save $$$.

P.S. Still seeking an answer from any current ATS USA military or veteran members as to why the double standard exists?

I dont believe there is an answer to the double standard question.
That is the whole point here, I wish HomerinNC would come back and answer this. His input is usually very helpful.

I dont see that as a double standard. cadet nolan didnt become deaf because of the military, he was deaf to begin with. someone who became deaf because of the military has already been through all the required training, knows how things work well enough to where he could perform a desk job without needing a translator 24/7, and has already shown that he wants to remain in the military despite being injured and being offered a nice seperation check. yes there are jobs that will never deploy and therefore never see combat, but those are extremely limited and the army takes care of its own before it takes care of an outsider. its not a double standard, its simply how it should be.

also personel limiting is something the military is worrying about. the military is downsizing and kicking out a lot of P3 profiled troops, why let in someone who would enter witha P3 when we're getting rid of those who are already in?

its not a prejudicial policy, its simply realistic. military service is a privilage,not a right. the army does not have ASL translators, they would have to hire a civilian to translate for him for not only all of his initial training, but his whole carreer. that would atleast double how much they have to pay to have him serve opposed to someone who can hear. there isnt a long list of non deployable jobs, its very short and its taken up by those who have earned more of a right to have them than cadet nolan has.

also keep in mind that as an officer you DO NOT get to choose your field in the army. only enlisted has the option to choose MOS. officers do get a wish list but there is no promise that they will get that job. i do applaud cadet nolan's desire to serve and his willingness to continue seeking it, but asking the military to make special accommodations (especially when the military has no need for you specifically and it would cost the military more) for you just isnt pracical

reply to post by youdidntseeme


Its not a double standard, someone said it here already, those soldiers ALREADY in are FINISHING up their terms of enlistment, then they get their medical retirement. To bring someone ALREADY disabled would probably cost millions to adapt training the soldier, plus once he's on active duty, millions more to adapt each duty station to conform to his disability.
Its a no win situation for the military to allow him to enlist, and would cost big bucks as well. Not cost effective for ONE PERSON.
I applaud this guy for wanting to serve, but its really not feasable

Personal Disclosure: Seems to me if they are supplying noise cancelling headsets which block out nearly everything for combat operations, then they definately can use deaf personel and save $$$.

noice cancelling headsets that block out the noise of the aircraft or whatever..you said it yourself NEARLY EVERYTHING, they can still hear and reply to verbal commands

also i've used those noise cancelling headsets before, and they dont simulate being deaf. you can still hear outside noise with them (especially loud noises) and more importantly you can hear the other troops with those headsets on your channel talking. if you were deaf you could not hear that, and therefore could not communicate. anyone in the military can tell you that communication is a pretty big deal

Originally posted by youdidntseeme
I believe that Cadet Nolan would be able to successfully serve his country just as the 300 members that returned to service after their injuries were able to. In some cases I am sure that he is probably more capable.

Those troops that were wounded and returned to duty have already proven their worth. Cadet Nolan has not.

Originally posted by youdidntseeme
In 2010 Cadet Nolan travelled to Israel where he 10 deaf soldiers; In Israel the deaf are allowed to serve. In addition to this trip there is a facebok page:
Commission Cadet Nolan Now

Fantastic. Sorry, but this isn't the Israeli Army, but the US Army. They can do all they want in Israel.

Originally posted by youdidntseeme
There is no reason that Cadet Nolan should be denied a commission as he successfully completed all the required training just as the other Cadets in UC Northridge's program.

Yes, there is. He is deaf. He will fail the medical exam on account of this.

Originally posted by youdidntseeme
His deafness is not a disability.

Yes, it is.

Originally posted by youdidntseeme
He does not want to force the Army to put him on the front lines, or even behind a radio, he just wants to serve his country, and here's hping that if enough people get behind him, he will have his chance.

There are other ways he can serve. If he wants to do an intel job, he can apply with CIA or FBI, if they do not have a hearing requirement.

Originally posted by youdidntseeme
Limited slots is not something that the military is worried abut right now. Recruitment isn't exactly at its most successful in recent years.

Actually, recruiting is very good. And there are limited slots. Just take a look in the paper and you'll see the military is looking to draw down due to a limited budget.

Originally posted by youdidntseeme
Again this shows the double standard by the Army. If they are ging to prohibit someone at entry level, then the same should go for others after the fact.

Individuals that are allowed to stay in after an injury go before a board; it isn't an automatic approval. And they have already proven that they can do the job.

Originally posted by The Sword
Deaf people have excellent eyesight to compensate for the loss of hearing. I should know. I'm deaf, though I wasn't born that way.

Funny. What about the deaf dude I saw wearing glasses??? So much for your theory of "excellent eyesight".

reply to post by jerico65


What a trolling tool.

I'm sorry, but your brand of ignorance is not welcome on this site.

reply to post by The Sword


How was jerico's post trolling? The last one was a bit in-your-face and it didn't describe it correctly but it did point out a truth: being deaf does not give you better eyesight. It means you have learned to rely on your eyes more and because of that many deaf people do tend to have a slightly larger field of focus but it's far from enough to counteract the loss of hearing.
Field of focus isn't the correct term but it's what's coming to mind right now. Pretty much it's the area that you can see clearly enough to read/etc.

Kinda funny how we adapt everything else in life for people with disabilities, sidewalks with easements for the wheelchair bound, picture menus for the reading impaired, special parking spots for the handicapped, hell even drive up atm's with brail for the blind!! But God forbid we accept a deaf person into the military because then they would have to justify spending some of the money that they take from us on special needs individuals in order for them to serve and be accommodated. Please the money needed to accept the deaf would be peanuts in comparison to what they "lose" every year.

Originally posted by Deaf Alien
I agree with a few posters in here, especially HomerinNC. I am deaf myself. I have heard of a few deaf men trying to get in military myself.

Deaf people are not "combat capable". I'll let you have a few guesses as to why that is so.

However, they should be allowed in to learn a few things about the military then take positions where they can be very useful like intel and such.

I agree. There are so many jobs in the Military, not everyone in the military sees combat, some get desk jobs, Some become drill sergeants and train new soldiers.... It just seems that there are so many jobs....I really see no reason why a deaf person should not be allowed in.

Yes, I can see where being deaf would be a major disadvantage if people are shooting at you, but come on, there are so many needs in the military, not just combat needs.

Hey, women are still not really allowed in combat.... I wonder if they view having a vagina, as a disability.

^ I can't decide if that is a joke or not.....

Originally posted by The Sword
What a trolling tool.

I'm sorry, but your brand of ignorance is not welcome on this site.

Sorry, Homeslice. Ignorance? I'm basing my opinions and judgments on being in the military for 29+ years. How about you? What are you basing yours on, playing Call of Duty in your mom's basement?

Craftsman.

Originally posted by jaynkeel
Kinda funny how we adapt everything else in life for people with disabilities, sidewalks with easements for the wheelchair bound, picture menus for the reading impaired, special parking spots for the handicapped, hell even drive up atm's with brail for the blind!! But God forbid we accept a deaf person into the military because then they would have to justify spending some of the money that they take from us on special needs individuals in order for them to serve and be accommodated. Please the money needed to accept the deaf would be peanuts in comparison to what they "lose" every year.

civilian life has a need to adapt to the handicapped. we're not nazi's were not going to throw them into concentration camps. but military service isnt a requirement or even a right. the military isnt designed to b a place where anyone and everyone can coexist, like the civilian world in the US does. it exists to protect the freedoms of this country with force, that is its only job. it doesnt have to do with the money, although granted it actually would cost more to have a deaf soldier than one thats not simply because the army would have to get a civilian contractor (you know those guys that get paid 2-5x what a soldier with the same job gets paid) JUST for that one deaf soldier to be able to do his job. i've yet to see ANY job in the military where all you deal with is paperwork, no matter what you always have to deal with other soldiers... and those soldiers would be unable to communicate with him due to his disability. i understand your view point but understand this: your thinking of it in terms of how the civilian world operates as a society, not how the military operates or even how a company operates. even in the civilian world you will never see a construction worker whos a quadropalegic or an air traffic controller who's blind. I'm all for the ADA but it doesnt prohibit companies from hiring workers who cannot physically do the job with reasonable accommodations. spending 2-5x your salary to have a translator stick by your side 24/7, allowing you to be the ONLY officer that can pick and choose his desk job, placing you in a non deployable job above someone else whos already served and trying to get that slot, allowing you to bypass several medical standards that are set by congress, and having a soldier that cannot perform many of the basic soldier skills that every soldier is required to maintain profficiency on is not a reasonable accommodation.

Originally posted by OmegaLogos
reply to post by HomerinNC

 

Explanation: Uhmmm?

The helicopters traversed Mohmand, one of Pakistan’s seven tribal areas, skirted the north of Peshawar, and continued due east. The commander of DEVGRU’s Red Squadron, whom I will call James, sat on the floor, squeezed among ten other SEALs, Ahmed, and Cairo. (The names of all the covert operators mentioned in this story have been changed.) James, a broad-chested man in his late thirties, does not have the lithe swimmer’s frame that one might expect of a SEAL—he is built more like a discus thrower. That night, he wore a shirt and trousers in Desert Digital Camouflage, and carried a silenced Sig Sauer P226 pistol, along with extra ammunition; a CamelBak, for hydration; and gel shots, for endurance. He held a short-barrel, silenced M4 rifle. (Others SEALs had chosen the Heckler & Koch MP7.) A “blowout kit,” for treating field trauma, was tucked into the small of James’s back. Stuffed into one of his pockets was a laminated gridded map of the compound. In another pocket was a booklet with photographs and physical descriptions of the people suspected of being inside. He wore a noise-cancelling headset, which blocked out nearly everything besides his heartbeat.

Read more www.newyorker.com...

Personal Disclosure: Please explain!

If you sit in a helicopter the loud droning of engine/rotor noise will render your hearing worthless when you get out. Noise cancelling headsets allow the operators to hit the ground with hearing intact, increasing their effectiveness and survivability.

reply to post by CATthrower


Sorry, a cook in the army, a desk jockey in the army, any non critical position could be filled with people that have handicaps like the deaf. Quit making elaborate excuses because this could be doable without any need for a civilian contractor or whatever you want to call it. The guy is deaf not retarded, he can function in every aspect except hearing. So he carries around a notepad if need be, tell ya what I vote my tax dollars to go to those notepads. Hell add a checkbox on the w-2 paperwork next to the presidential campaign fund donation and I will add to it that way. Sure I can understand your argument about a quad not being adaptable to military life but seeing and hearing impaired is a disability that can be easily accommodated.

Originally posted by jaynkeel
reply to post by CATthrower

 

Sorry, a cook in the army, a desk jockey in the army, any non critical position could be filled with people that have handicaps like the deaf. Quit making elaborate excuses because this could be doable without any need for a civilian contractor or whatever you want to call it. The guy is deaf not retarded, he can function in every aspect except hearing. So he carries around a notepad if need be, tell ya what I vote my tax dollars to go to those notepads. Hell add a checkbox on the w-2 paperwork next to the presidential campaign fund donation and I will add to it that way. Sure I can understand your argument about a quad not being adaptable to military life but seeing and hearing impaired is a disability that can be easily accommodated.

How is a soldier supposed to receive or give orders from/to troops he cannot communicate with? Writing it down on a notepad? The ADA would be all over that... You might as well hang a chalkboard from his neck. Your right he can do everything that doesn't involve hearing, but I don't think you grasp what all in the army involves hearing. Just to name some the daily tasks/skills that require hearing: react to enemy fire (even FOBbits are subject to mortar fire), being able to hear the safety commands at a rifle range, being able to recieve orders, being able to give orders, being able to relay information over a radio (there are no TTY radios in Iraq/Afghanistan), etc.

These are not elaborate excuses, these are requirements. Have you personally served? If not then I suggest that you dont try to argue what military life entails and requires with those that have. I am not trying to sound rude, but those that have served know anlot more about that subject than those that haven't.

Also keep this in mind: yes in a pinch a deaf person can serve. But who is more capable of serving? Someone who is deaf or someone in perfect health? I don't think anyone would argue that someone who is a sense short is a more capable soldier. The military exists, as I stated already, to protect your freedoms with force. We have an all volunteer military with relatively high standards because we want the most capable people in those roles. in a pinch yes Cadet Nolan could serve, but the simple fact of the matter is that there is someone more capable than him who can fill the slot.
I'm all for equality, civil rights, and the persuit of happiness: but sometimes having the MOST CAPABLE man for the job outweighs someone else's feelings.