Jesus said, "Away from me Satan...", therefore he is not Messiah

I have to point out "The Context" in which Our Lord Jesus Christ had Commanded Satan To Go..

First of all Peter had told Christ that he would basically not allow Christ to be crucified thinking he was being a good friend . It was at that point that Jesus told him ( Peter ) " Get thee behind me Satan" The reason being, even tho Peter was a friend and Disciple of Christ, his mouth was being used by Satan. Satan didn't want Christ to die for the sins of the world.

Also in the temptation in th wilderness, Satan was allowed to tempt Christ to the fullest extent and then he left.

I have nothing against Jewish People or their right to believe as they wish but lets face it, they don't believe Christ is or was the Messiah so I don't pay alot of attention to what they have to say regarding the Christ they Crucified !!!

Peace...
Thx for the thread !!

Revelation 2:26, 27, 28
And to the one who conquers and who continues in my deeds until the end, I will give him authority over the nations – he will rule them with an iron rod and like clay jars he will break them to pieces, just as I have received the right to rule from my Father – and I will give him the morning star.

So it seems this person claiming to be son of God is telling everyone that they will be each Christ.

In the Gospels Jesus silences his critics by asking them who the Christ is the son of, then presenting a paradox that basically nullifies their response, without spelling out a definite answer.

reply to post by jmdewey60
I have mentioned before that I really don't care for the book of Revelation at all. It seems to serve the purpose of keeping people's noses in the Old Testament, just like that fellow at the end of Luke who shows up preaching Christ out of the Law and Prophets.

But if you look at the "Babylon" that gets cursed, it does look an awful lot like my summary of the OT Messianic age a few posts back.

MT 22:41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 "What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?"
"The son of David," they replied.

MT 22:43 He said to them, "How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him `Lord'? For he says,

MT 22:44 " `The Lord said to my Lord:

"Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet." `

MT 22:45 If then David calls him `Lord,' how can he be his son?" 46 No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.

reply to post by CherubBaby

20 Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.

MT 16:21 From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

MT 16:22 Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. "Never, Lord!" he said. "This shall never happen to you!"

MT 16:23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

Compare with:

LK 24:13 Now that same day two of them were going to a village called Emmaus, about seven miles from Jerusalem. 14 They were talking with each other about everything that had happened. 15 As they talked and discussed these things with each other, Jesus himself came up and walked along with them; 16 but they were kept from recognizing him.
. . .
LK 24:25 He said to them, "How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?" 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

If Jesus had told his disciples all that would happen, as in the Matthew story, why then would he have to tell them the same things all over again?

And again:

JN 2:19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."

JN 2:20 The Jews replied, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?" 21 But the temple he had spoken of was his body. 22 After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the Scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.

Can you, or any one else find an Old Testament scripture that says that the Messiah would get killed and then raised again after 3 days? And I won't accept the Jonah story. That's a narrative about some prophet, not the messiah, alive in the belly of a fish.

reply to post by pthena


Don't Christians view Jesus death as atonement for sin and that his resurrection was to show that death wasn't the end? I feel like I'm missing something here.

reply to post by ManOfGod267
You would have to ask the Christians that question. But I do believe that that is their teaching.

If you think I'm a crypto Christian, you would be more wrong than right. I don't believe that humans survive death with their egos, individualities, or self recognition intact. But through Christ the spirit we may help humanity be more caring and sharing and the world to be a better place for this generation and generations to come.

Death isn't the end, it's just the passing of the torch.

reply to post by pthena


Are you looking for the truth or a debate that you are unwilling to submit to if the evidence is given to you? The repeating story you mention is nothing more than four seperate accounts of the same story of Christs life.. as told by four seperate testimonies'

And if you say you will not accept the Jonah prophecy then thats a question of what your willing to believe and that's that. I say this to your respectfully, If you want talk about "Honest Doubt" that you have and need help in finding your answers Many people will help I am sure. But if your looking for a discussion to question the Deity of Christ, I won't participate..

For by their words they shall be saved and by their words thou shalt be condemed!!!

Be carefull!! Thx for your opinion

reply to post by CherubBaby

Are you looking for the truth or a debate that you are unwilling to submit to if the evidence is given to you?

I'm looking for truth, crave it actually.

And if you say you will not accept the Jonah prophecy then thats a question of what your willing to believe and that's that.

The prophecy part of Jonah was the destruction of Nineveh, which didn't happen because the people repented. The fish part is narrative, not prophecy.

But if your looking for a discussion to question the Deity of Christ, I won't participate..

Jesus the Christ is the greatest deity I know of to ever walk this earth. I've discussed it with other deities and they agree also. And that is no joke. None of them could point out to me where he is. I can only assume that when he poured himself out, that that was not a temporary thing for him but eternal, for as long as people live on this earth. He is present with us. God with us, if you prefer.

I'm looking for truth, crave it actually.

As we all are.

Just because I didn't accept the temptation to sneak out of the house as a teen to go to the fair with my friend doesn't mean my dad didn't allow me to go at a later time. Just because Jesus turned down satans offer doesn't mean God didn't give Jesus the kingdom anyway.

I believe God did give Jesus the keys to Kingdom. His kingdom is a spiritual one and Spirit lives in each and every one of us. Jesus told us when we feed the sick, the poor etc. we were feeding Him. We all have Spirit-our brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers, friends, enemies, and we all are one. When we love our friend we love Jesus, when we love our enemy we love Jesus, when we love our family we love Jesus.

Jesus the Christ is the greatest deity I know of to ever walk this earth. I've discussed it with other deities and they agree also. And that is no joke. None of them could point out to me where he is. I can only assume that when he poured himself out, that that was not a temporary thing for him but eternal, for as long as people live on this earth. He is present with us. God with us, if you prefer.

God is Spirit, God is Love. God is. " I AM".

When we give love and receive love we are giving and receiving God.

Can you, or any one else find an Old Testament scripture that says that the Messiah would get killed and then raised again after 3 days? And I won't accept the Jonah story. That's a narrative about some prophet, not the messiah, alive in the belly of a fish.

Not sure if this will convince you, but from what I read, this seems like it points to His Death and Resurrection.

Isaiah 53:9-10 He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth. 10 Yet it was the Lord's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

Psalms 2:7 I will proclaim the decree of the LORD: He said to me, "You are my Son ; today I have become your Father.

Psalm 16:8-11 I have set the LORD always before me. Because he is at my right hand, I will not be shaken. 9 Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices; my body also will rest secure, 10 because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay. 11 You have made known to me the path of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence, with eternal pleasures at your right hand.

Hosea 6:2 After two days he will revive us; on the third day he will restore us, that we may live in his presence.

You might be saying to yourself that it isn't direct, but like Jesus said.


Matthew 13:11-13 The knowledge of the secrets of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. This is why I speak to them in parables, ‘Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand’”

reply to post by GmoS719
I don't know what time period you operate on, but as for me, it's just about my bed time.

Isaiah 53, I'd like to spend considerable time on. Probably tomorrow.

Psalm 2 is an enthronement Messianic Psalm, referring most directly to Messiah Solomon, and by extension, any son of David who sat on the throne as Messiah. There was no requirement for a candidate to the throne to die and rise again before assuming the throne as Messiah.

Hosea 6:2 applies to a group of people addressed by the prophet. I would assume that you don't think a bunch of people died and rose on the third day together. Revive and Restore do not imply a previous death.

Psalm 16 is used by proclaimers in Acts. (Since David obviously died, and his tomb is still there, it must be a prophecy.) I'll have to look at that further.

Tomorrow I will attempt Isaiah 53, Psalm 22, and look at Psalm 16.

Here is a nice very ancient writing I was reading today that I thought was interesting and wondered if this was on your recommended reading list.

O father, to thy loved ones come in aid.

With tears I call on thee.

Listen and rise to light!
Be thou with us, be thou against the foe!
Swiftly this cry arises-even so
Pray we, the loyal band, as we have prayed!

Let their might meet with mine, and their right with my right.

O ye Gods, it is yours to decree.

Ye call unto the dead; I quake to hear.
Fate is ordained of old, and shall fulfil your prayer.

The Choephori

I downloaded the LibriVox audio of this acted out by various readers and compiled by a particular reader I like, because she reminds me of Winona Ryder, and was astounded by the religion that seamed rather biblical sounding. I looked at the text to see what it was and kept finding little bits that could have been interchangeable by just switching the god names.
This part I quoted reminds me of this thread where the fates decided long ago what would happen and the loved ones of God who call him father are asking that what had been ordained of old be fulfilled.

Psalm 22 aka "My God, My God"

This psalm is a theatrical production in three voices:

The cast consists of:
1) Saul the Messiah, King of Israel and prophet of El(god of the fathers Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob)
2) David the Messiah, as yet to be enthroned King of Judah and Israel representative of Yahweh(the new and ascending god)
3) Chorus of onlookers

Though probably written much later, this play re-enacts the events mentioned in 1 Samuel 16:23, "Whenever the spirit from El came upon Saul, David would take his harp and play. Then relief would come to Saul; he would feel better, and the evil spirit would leave him.

By the time these stories were written, Judean theology had progressed to the stage in which the god Yahweh was already held to be top god, and El was relegated to servant status, as low as being the sender of evil spirits.

The backstory goes back to the days of Abraham servant of El. Abraham was instrumental in the spread of the knowledge of El by forming treaties with the clans and families among whom he dwelled.(see Gen.21:27-32) Treaty making allowed for cultural exchange since the respective gods of the parties were called upon as witnesses.

The new and ascending god Yahweh, had decided that bloodshed, killing, cultural destruction, and forbidding of treaty making was a winning strategy for gaining supremacy. (see Deut. 7:1-6)

Saul was chosen by Yahweh to be King of Israel. Not only was he anointed by Samuel to be Messiah King, 1SA 10:1 "Has not Yahweh anointed(messiahed) you leader over his inheritance?", but also, 1 SA 10:6 "The Spirit of Yahweh will come upon you in power, and you will prophesy ...; and you will be changed into a different person." So Saul, the new person, was Messiah King and prophet of Yahweh, in heart and in position.

But that all came crashing down when Saul did not perform as thorough of a destruction of the Amalekites as Yahweh commanded through Samuel, 1SA 15:3 "Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.' "

Therefore the word of Yahweh came to Samuel: 1SA 15:11 "I am grieved that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from me and has not carried out my instructions." Samuel confronted Saul and said to him,1SA 15:28 "The LORD has torn the kingdom of Israel from you today and has given it to one of your neighbors--to one better than you. 29 He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a man, that he should change his mind."

1SA 16:14 Now the Spirit of Yahweh had departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from Yahweh tormented him.
1SA 16:15 Saul's attendants said to him, "See, an evil spirit from El is tormenting you.

Yet Saul was still a prophet. 1SA 18:10 "He was prophesying in his house, while David was playing the harp, as he usually did." He was prophesying for El, the descending god, supposed "evil spirit".

So this is the setting for the performance of the play "My God, My God" sometimes called "The two Messiahs", the audience may refer to their programs under Psalm 22. I will provide the cues and director's notes.

Lights!

(Saul is slumped in a chair, his back bowed, looking down, David is standing tall and straight)

Saul(in a despairing tone):
My El, my El, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning?

Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the praise of Israel.

In you our fathers put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.

All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads:

Chorus:
He trusted in the LORD;
let the LORD rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him.

Saul:
Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you
even at my mother's breast.
. . .
They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.
(reference to the kingdom torn away and given to some one else through casting of lots, probable method used by Samuel to chose David)

David (in firm ascendant tone):
But you, O Yahweh, be not far off;
O my Strength, come quickly to help me.

I will declare your name to my brothers;
in the congregation I will praise you.

From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you will I fulfill my vows.

All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to Yahweh,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,
for dominion belongs to Yahweh
and he rules over the nations.

All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;

Saul(falls from his chair, voice becomes quite pitiful) :

all who go down to the dust will kneel before him--
those who cannot keep themselves alive.

Posterity will serve him;
(looks up at David)
future generations will be told about the Lord.

They will proclaim his righteousness
to a people yet unborn--
for he has done it.

Lights down.

Thus is settled in Judean theology the supremacy of Yahweh the god of bloodshed over El the god of treaties.

reply to post by jmdewey60
Aeschylus/choephori

Interesting that I've spent the last few hours putting Psalm 22 in play format. I guess I should read more Greek plays.

I think I'll take the rest of the day off to babysit. Isaiah 53 could really stretch me to the max. That's why I started with the easier Psalm 22.

reply to post by pthena
I was shocked a bit when you posted that. I was probably listening to that play right when you started formatting that chapter into play form. So when I read your account, it made perfect sense to me as a theatrical production.
What I quoted was actually two individuals, and one group, so as to be three different voices, but at this point they were all in agreement, so I left the titles out. How much of the Bible was originally like that, then edited like I just did?

Can you, or any one else find an Old Testament scripture that says that the Messiah would get killed and then raised again after 3 days? And I won't accept the Jonah story. That's a narrative about some prophet, not the messiah, alive in the belly of a fish.

Hosea 6:1-2
1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

reply to post by jmdewey60

How much of the Bible was originally like that, then edited like I just did?

Alot actually. I've seen comparative verses from Psalms and Job (I think) which basically took Sumerian, Akadian, and Babylonian texts and changed the names (usually when one god was fighting another, victory songs)

reply to post by Perplexedandconfused

HOS 5:14 For I will be like a lion to Ephraim,
like a great lion to Judah.
I will tear them to pieces and go away;
I will carry them off, with no one to rescue them.

HOS 5:15 Then I will go back to my place
until they admit their guilt.
And they will seek my face;
in their misery they will earnestly seek me."

HOS 6:1 "Come, let us return to the LORD.
He has torn us to pieces
but he will heal us;
he has injured us
but he will bind up our wounds.

HOS 6:2 After two days he will revive us;
on the third day he will restore us,
that we may live in his presence.

HOS 6:3 Let us acknowledge the LORD;
let us press on to acknowledge him.
As surely as the sun rises,
he will appear;
he will come to us like the winter rains,
like the spring rains that water the earth."

This doesn't imply dead then alive, but rather back turned away, then turned face forward in acceptance. It doesn't apply to one person but to all of Ephraim and Judah, all 12 tribes of Israel.

The meaning of life from the dead could be read back into these verses as Paul did:

RO 11:13 I make much of my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

But still, that is a large group of people, and not one man.

reply to post by GmoS719

Isaiah 53 is beyond me. It is still alive and active due to the interjection of the poet/prophet of himself into the verse.

ISA 53:12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

That is a first person interjection, not speaking for someone else but from himself(the poet/prophet)
Even today then, when people recognize the suffering servant they can give him a portion among the great. Christians apply this to Jesus. I won't take that away. I can't actually.

But there is no identification made of the Servant as Messiah.

reply to post by jmdewey60
[mo.re]

We dont become a christ. He lives in us but we still have our individual identity. No servant is greater than his master. No student greater than his teacher. It is sufficient enough to be like him.