An in-depth (re)view of the Cash/ Landrum case

reply to post by dpd11
The removal of the asphalt has been described by people in the area and/or connected to the research. It's also part of the SOP in cases when crashes occur involving fires and nuclear material. Since the 50s there have been dozens of incidents where aircraft carrying nuclear warheads have crashed. In at least one of those incidents the road covering was replaced due to low-level radiation.

Brad Sparks had problems with the ionizing radiation explanation for the burns, hair loss and injuries. IR radiation was considered.

As for your doubts...I share them. It's a very unusual account.

ETA: Accidents with nuclear weapons. The case I mentioned is the January 31 1958 B-47 crash.

Removal of any surface in a contamination is of course part of the response. I'm just not convinced it happened in this situation. The vibe I get from the reports have more of an urban myth feeling to me.... One of those things where somebody sees road construction or something, then years later, it turns into something else and the tale grows. And not to diminish his involvement, but I have to have doubts about the accuracy of a child's testimony. Could anybody that age accurately offer facts to an incident that happened when they were a kid 30 years ago? Maybe, but you'd have to take that with a large grain of salt. If you look at photos of the area during that time, I believe the area where the event most likely actually occured, was very sparse back then. Only a couple homes. It would have been fairly easy to contain the scene and control information getting out. Especially if the nature of this incident was a patriotic one... Locals would have gone along with it, or simply not cared that much. I believe the real answers would exist with any emergency response people that worked in that area at the time. Of which, I have not been unable to find or talk to. Since the people involved left the scene, it leaves everything open to interpretation. I believe, had they stayed at the scene, or nearby... or reported immediately to authorities, there's a very good chance there would be no mystery and the truth would be known today. But the very fact that they didn't do either of those things, is one of the issues that raises questions.

The injuries she suffered, and thankfully, photo documented, are a telltale sign of radiation exposure, IMO.

When I was badged for "unescorted access" for several PSE&G nuclear plants, I had to sit through a good amount of training, particularly H&S related. Radiation exposure was something they really harped on. The skin lesions, chunks of hair loss, nausea, etc, can all be explained individually, but together, they're pretty much a slam dunk for rad exposure. We had to watch videos of human exposure (for the scare factor) and boy, was it nasty.

I would have to disagree with that. Look at photos of arc flash injuries or plasma burns. Virtually the same. Something like hair loss can be induced by many things, including a reaction to a high stress situation. People who have been in serious accidents or had surgery can often have hair loss, and it's for some reason a more pronounced issue with women. Knew a girl that lost half her hair after a car accident.

We've gone over it before, but once again... You just don't test stuff like that in some random residential area.

I live (literally) right next an airfield opposite an RAF base and hear Chinooks fly over on a weekly (sometimes 2 or 3 times a week) basis. Just one of them makes a large amount of noise. I shudder to think what a fleet of 23 or even 12 would sound like!

I got to say based on my experience of said type of helicopter that I have a very hard time believing that the helicopters they witnessed we're Chinooks, Especially in that large a number.

Just my 2 pence!

I agree... The number of craft is one of the various issues I have. I have great doubts there were that many. There are many parts of their story like that, which I believe they may have embellished, either consciously or subconsciously. That would not be unusual. It's something that often occurs when people have a wild story that some people doubt... They become frustrated and start adding details to lend credence to the story. Another negative is when they claim it to be Air Force. This of course would be an easy mistake to make, as many people would just assume anything in the air that's military is AF. But they also claim they saw the insignia. The stars and bars could be confused between services. But the negative point is... How would you possibly see that at night? Highly unlikely.

On the positive side though... Most people don't know jack about aviation matters. And I would expect that to especially be the case with two random women living in rural TX. And yet, they both give a very detailed description of the aircraft, specifically saying that some were large twin rotor, then some mid sized single rotor, then some even smaller ones. This is the description of what would basically be a mission package, where you would have multiple types flying together, each responsible for specific roles. It also eliminates AF, as they had no twin rotors in the inventory at the time.

Originally posted by dpd11
Nice effort. I've looked into this case more than any. It's one of the few where I believe something significant actually happened. However, the Hunters show had a lot of misleading and/or incorrect info. I also believe they looked at the wrong location. I'm not sure why. I think the son may have forgotten the exact location over the years, or mistaken it. There's lots of elements they tried to add into the story, which I don't believe. I don't believe the road surface was replaced... There seems to be no evidence for that. Not to mention, that would not remove any residual traces from the area anyway. I also don't believe they had any sort of injuries due to radiation. I think the injuries they received could possibly be viewed that way, but they were not directly from radiation. I do believe there is somewhat of a coverup in the military, but not for the reasons some believe.

Thank you ! Concerning the overpaved road just look into my review of the case again. I included a first-hand account of a witness, also a member here on ATS. He described the operation and saw unmarked trucks on the road. You may say "no pics and it didn't happen", but I think that's a false statement in general (who can say he/ she has pictures of his own birth, so it didn't happen? )

The injuries may have been caused by some kind of Aerosol as someone in an aviation magazine supposed...

Do you mind sharing your reason for this military coverup?

The problem with the 'testing' theory, is that it just doesn't make sense. There was no facility anywhere near there that works on programs like that. Anything like that would never be anywhere near an area like that. The 160th had just barely been formed at that time, and all of their effort was being made towards the plan for a second hostage rescue attempt in Iran. Which is the whole reason why the unit was started in the first place. However... If you look into the story more, you will see that including that unit is not that far off the mark form what most likely DID happen in the incident.

Do you imply that the 160th wasn't involved in this operation? I got to agree with your doubts because of the just formed regiment back then. I don't get tho what you're trying to say in your last sentence, can you please fill me in?

If you read carefully through the transcript taken by the AF when the ladies were interviewed... lots of good info can be obtained. Specifically, they were adamant about the fact that they DID NOT think aliens had anything to do with it. They were convinced that it was military/gov related, and were actually annoyed when the AF people mentioned talking to UFO people about it. But all that said... There are definitely issues that can be found with their testimony on the incident. If you follow their actions and the reporting of what the helicopters supposedly did, there are many things that don't make sense. That can be attributed to their confusion, which would be normal. But it could also be attributed to the fact that they may have exaggerated or changed their story. Most notable is the fact that one of the women claimed they thought they were seeing god when they first saw the light. That gives an idea as to where their mindset was and that they could be confused about what they were seeing. Still, I do believe something of significance did happen.

I see you always (at least in this part) talk about "they" (the women), but it wasn't that way. Only Ms. Landrum, a born-again christ, was telling her grandson that "Jesus is coming back" to comfort him. There is no talk about Ms. Cash believing in those religious things, so it's really not "their mindset". No offence here but you get my point

I would have to go back and look at all the stuff I collected to recall what parts of their story had issues. I think something happened... I'm just not sure it happened exactly the way they claim. I believe the older gentleman who said he also saw the helicopters. But I think the third guy is a copycat. I don't believe his story.

It's not like I would believe anyone telling me anything but I for myself believe the older gentleman. He was interviewed several times, back in the 80's when he still was active in police duty (not that night in question) and had to lose his reputation. He made the same statements several years later (last time I saw him giving an interview) was on the Hunters episode. I think he is credible. Of course I accept your opinion, it's just my point of view and intuition

My personal theory is that the location of the incident was at a slightly different location, and that they were injured by a much less exotic accident. I have an idea what that was, but it can;t be proven, and to prove it could actually be damaging. There would be a legitimate reason why they have kept it secret, but nothing extraordinary.

No one can prove anything! I still would love to know what you think about what happened that night? You say nothing extraordinary but they stil had/ have to keep it secret? What is your take on these things?

So DP,

I think we're all on the same page here in terms of dismissing some sort of ET encounter with this one. You stated you believe "something" happened, but you also stated that you don't test something in this sort of area....so what are you getting at here?

Well... It's a totally lame answer, but I don't think it would be right to say exactly. If I'm right, then it would in fact still be a secret. Nothing that would stop the world from turning, but still a secret that could be damaging to our image. And besides, nobody here is going to agree with me anyway.

Unfortunately I can't find my notes... But I believe this is the spot that the show claimed was the area. I took this from when they showed the sign of a cross street, and also that gas station.

www.bing.com...

However, if you follow what they said in the transcript carefully, it seems to be an area farther north. They said they turned the corner and the light came into view. That would most likely be the large turn on the road to the north, when it goes from east to south and then stays straight. It would be possible that it happened in the wooded area just below the turn. as that is the most isolated area on that part of the road. But this is the spot where I believe it happened...

www.bing.com...

Older images show that spot had only one or two homes nearby in that time frame. And I believe that the core of the story involves helicopters, and only helicopters. So you can draw your own conclusions from that.

That's assuming that all this went down anywhere near the way they claim at all, which I think is probably about 50/50. As I said, there are many odd things about their story that don't make sense.

But there is a fire station south of that point on that road, which I believe existed at that time. I have not been able to find anybody who worked there then. But I would say, that would be your best bet for learning what, if anything, happened. If they don't know, then I think the whole story would have to be questioned. That would have been the best place to try and investigate on the show, but of course they didn't do that.

OP, I think you confused some of the things I said... I never said nothing out of the ordinary happened. I think there's a good chance it did. I just don't think it was a test of some sort of craft or whatever, and here's why...

When you test any sort of craft, or even an engine... you are strictly confined to where it can be done. Any prototype is loaded with sensors and telemetry equipment. That basically makes that prototype priceless. If it is lost, then it's a huge blow to a program. So being in any old area where civies are flying around and all kinds of other stuff, is the last thing you'd want. When a craft is tested, it has to be done on a specific range that is setup for testing. Dozens, if not hundreds of people are involved. The data has to be systematically collected and disseminated in a very repeatable fashion. To do this, you have to have all kinds of Engineers and support people available to deal with the intricacies of that particular craft. The telemetry is collected over the range by monitoring stations in fixed positions and relayed to a mission center. So when all of this is done, it's done in areas that specifically exist for these sorts of tests. Each sortie is very involved and pre-planed for days, and all the data is collected in a very scientific fashion. There is no such facility like that in TX. Contrary to what some people think, you don't just hop in a secret prototype craft and start flying around wherever you want... It just doesn't work like that.

The comment she made about looking for Jesus to come out of it... All I'm saying is that, it sort of shows that maybe they didn't make the worlds best witnesses.

Just wondering... Just how many witnesses are there to this event besides the participants in the car? It seems like a populated area (from the map) so there should be dozens of witnesses - at least to the mass flyover of Chinook helicopters.

Unless...
The incident recollection is actually an implanted memory perhaps (I am speculating here that the memory implantation technology is an advanced alien technology as suggested by many "abduction" events). It might be for example, that the incident was at least partly some sort of alien encounter - perhaps involving a real craft, but maybe all the Chinook helicopters were holograms or just artificial memory implants overlaid in the incident.

I also figure you had that many Chinook helicopters flying over (assuming these are US), then someone who was there would back up the events from that night?

I still think its a very interesting incident but I have doubts about the theory that this was a testing of any "advanced technology" by the US army.

reply to post by dpd11


"If I'm right, then it would in fact still be a secret. Nothing that would stop the world from turning, but still a secret that could be damaging to our image. And besides, nobody here is going to agree with me anyway. "

Thanks for your contribution so far! But what exactly is the secret in your opinion? Go ahead and just don't care if anybody agrees with you on your idea or not, we're on ATS There are far more far-fetched stories and theories on here

Do you think they tested some kind of nuclear device??

As for some E.T. theory... I really don't think any E.T.s or their technology were involved, we can discount that. As for the Chinooks, that may be another story... maybe there were not 20+ Chinooks involved but I really do think the other witness (ret. Detective Walker) is credible when saying he and his wife saw the helicopters as well.

Of course the area where it happened was remote and abandoned (I don't know what it's like today), but you can go ahead and ask the member DocVelocity, who is a first hand witness of the over-paved road and used to live in that area, what's his take on the area in question and he will tell you the same - rural area and not really populated. And still, there is Jerry McDonald who also saw the craft flying over his house...

Flames out of the bottom? In no way that's E.T. technology.

US government and US military testing some kind of engine/ craft with hazardous propulsion system? Hell yeah.

The NICAP pages describe a few witnesses to the helicopters and to the object.

Betty, Vickie and Colby were not the only witnesses to the strange happenings at Huffman. An off duty Dayton policeman and his wife were driving home from Cleveland through the Huffman area the same night and also observed a large number of CH-47s. A man living in Crosby, directly under the flight path, reported seeing a large number of heavy military helicopters flying overhead. Oilfield laborer Jerry McDonald was in his back garden in Dayton when he saw a huge UFO flying directly over head. At first he thought it was the Goodyear airship, but quickly realized it was something else. "It was kind of diamond shaped and had two twin torches that were shooting brilliant blue flames out the back", he said. As it passed about 45 meters above him he saw that it had two bright lights on it and a red light in the center.

NICAP - Cash & Landrum

*If* it was a prototype craft that had passed through initial testing and was now being tested in flight, perhaps that would go some way to explaining the circumstances?

The Needles crash I mentioned earlier had the helicopter presence and, due to the secrecy, I imagine any enquiries would result in an emphatic 'Not us' from any surrounding bases. The fact that George Knapp met agents from the NNSA could be suggestive. Witnesses had been reporting a lot of questions by 'MIBs' and a large presence of black SUVs in the area. We still don't know what object crashed although it was possibly an X-37B or drone. There's been no confirmation that the crash happened by official sources.

The light configuration (white lights and red central light) reported by Jerry Macdonald has since become fairly typical of the black triangle craft being reported since the 80s. Maybe they are related? A lot of speculation has considered these triangle reports as black projects and who knows? Maybe?

The incident was 30 years past and there are still no known aircraft that share similar dimensions or shape. If it was some kind of test-bed, given the injuries and court case, nobody will be able to lay it to rest for decades.

reply to post by Kandinsky


Just take a look in my initial post. I included Jerry McDonald's testimony with pictures and a drawing. I think he, like LL Walker, are credible witnesses. There's a picture I included in my OP post with an engine used for the NERVA program which has 2 exhaust pipes, like it could've been part of the craft. Anyone saying the helicopters and the craft itself were delusional perceptions is insane.

reply to post by Dalbeck
I was highlighting the witnesses for a member who asked if there were any witnesses.

The Needles crash is to show a parallel of activities under similar circumstances. It also shows that an absence of official acknowledgement doesn't mean something didn't happen.

reply to post by Kandinsky


Ah okay got ya

Of course no one within the knowing will tell I still really wonder how they could take injured US citizens for granted and dismiss any legal actions. Yeas, beacuse they had to admit that something out of the ordinary happened. Maybe you're right about your triangle theory, Kandinsky.

reply to post by Dalbeck
I guess they take the view that if you want an omelette you gotta break eggs.

Originally posted by dpd11
I would have to disagree with that. Look at photos of arc flash injuries or plasma burns. Virtually the same. Something like hair loss can be induced by many things, including a reaction to a high stress situation. People who have been in serious accidents or had surgery can often have hair loss, and it's for some reason a more pronounced issue with women. Knew a girl that lost half her hair after a car accident.

We've gone over it before, but once again... You just don't test stuff like that in some random residential area.

Ther is a medical record that these women had all features of radiation are you retarded? Do you really fall for your silly expanations of 'how explainable it is' Forget about aliens. You refuse to say that these people had what they had and all was something else??

The guy is also lying too? I said forget about aliens, let's call it a military craft, Fact is there was radiation, they wer eexposed to it and there was an object in the air apparently. How can some of you be so moronic and deny that the event ever happened? That's wehy I hate dumb skeptics FORGET ALIENS U REFUSE TO THINK THAT"S EVEN MILITARY OBJECT CLAIMING IT NEVER HAPPENED.

I hope if aliens are true you get experimented on because you will be the organic waste, needless to anyone.

And if it turns out all a lie, then at least it will be clear and it will be still true they were UFOs just military not alien Until then it's a waste of timing arguing with bullsh1ters. I said, it is unarguable there was an object, it did irradiate them, docs said they had all the radiation signs. You refuse that it even happened, ****ing morons..

NO LOGIC in your heads , NO RATIONAL thinking. Full of trolls, idiot skeptics and idiot believers. FCK OFF and this ATS forum.

reply to post by Imtor


I agree with you, although I wouldn't put it that harsh way Like I said before, anyone saying the helicopters and the craft itself were delusional perceptions and all witnesses are insane is insane.

This is definitely one of the most interesting and mysterious UFO sightings that has ever been reported. Whether the craft was man made or alien is impossible to determine, but I do not doubt the authenticity of the case, or the credibility of the witnesses.

Imtor, just because you don't agree with someone's opinion doesn't mean you can start bearting people like a 10 year old. You do yourself and your stance on this subject a disservice by responding as such.

Dalbeck,
I'm of the opinion this was indeed some sort of NERVA prototype that they decided to field test in the real world, outside of some secluded desert bed after the initial runs. Obviously, something went wrong. I don't believe this craft wouldve been designed to emit harmful radiation as an exhaust byproduct (what CO would let that thing on their airbase?). I think the small containment vessel was breached and the rads were spread by the exhaust system. The test-pilot probably ended up dying during/immediately after this incident. Short of several inches of lead, they wouldnt (and still dont) have had an effective technology built into this type of craft to adequately protect the pilot in case of a catastrophic failure.

And this wouldnt be the first time the military has injured civilians. Hell, up to a couple years ago, they were still denying that the water source in Camp Lejeune, NC was poisoning their own troops! They had TCE /isotopes(known carcinogen, suspected mutagen) in their production well for YEARS and were supplying the troops drinking water that they full well knew was hazardous. Lots of people died before they finally admitted "there were issues" with their drinking water source.