If evolution is wrong then what's the alternative?

I'm open to the notion that science is utterly wrong. They just missed the mark. Bad methodology, bias, and unrealistic leaps of logic has conspired to create this erroneous view of creation. Creationists have made their arguments in, surprisingly, scientific fashion. They provide counter-evidence to science's evidence. bravo!

However, with very few exceptions, creationists seem to turn, then, to the judeo-christian bible for the truth of creation. What evidence have you shown to support this choice? Why not turn to Islam? Buddhism? Zoroastroism? Bahai? Sikhism? Hinduism? Or any of the other myriad religions in human history? Also, why turn to religion at all? Is science and religion the only options available? If science has been improper and innacurate because of methods and assumptions, would a science founded on proper methods with no bias for or against anything be better? Why must the answer be christianity?

Spontaneous evolution is what I believe could be the answer.

www.freewebs.com...

I am not happy with any of the current "theories" evolution, creation or the alien astronauts. There is something else we just haven't figured it out yet. Evolution works to a point, but there are issues that I have with it that makes me think something else could have happened in tandem but not evolution by its self.

reply to post by sgreco


How about a universe where God didn't wind the clock and walk away.

A universe where creation and speciation is still happening today.

Why do things CONSISTENTLY evolve new survival strategies at faster rates than evolution and genetic drift mandate?

Perhaps He's still here & doing stuff?

The main reason for Christianity is that it is Christian Fundamentalists who are pushing the idea of creationism. All of the other religions, except perhaps Islam I'm not sure, believe in their own versions of "The Beginning."

As always I find it disappointing that people are willing to utterly cast aside science in it's entirety for essentially religion. As I have implied in previous posts I would urge people to not necessarily take science as absolute verbatim immediately, let the science develop. Time and time again science has demonstrated itself to be extremely reliable in defining and predicting the physical universe.

I have also stated in a previous post that from a personal point of view it is a question of possibility. If the weight of evidence lies with science as opposed to some religion or other, and that the science is rigorous and consistent then I consider it more likely than not that the premise proposed by science is likely correct. If however the opposite were true, which it isn't in my opinion, then religion it is. Just because there is complexity in nature doesn't mean creationism, I'd be fairly certain in backing umpteen million years of evolution. Erm dinosaurs and ........

Cheers

Well, if one species could not evolve into another one, then that would mean that all species present on Earth have always existed on Earth. Further, when you consider the rate at which species on Earth become extinct, then at one time there must have been tens of trillions of species present on Earth at the same time.

Somehow, that doesn't make much sense to me, but I guess it would explain how dinosaurs and humans could have existed at the same time. Would have made for a pretty crowded planet, though.

If we were put here by an alien being from somewhere else would that be evolution or religion?

At first the ancient alien idea seemed ridiculous but then as I looked into it more and more it appeared more realistic. Including how the end of days ideas were integrated into mainstream religion calling for 'final battles' between good and evil in which good wins and it leads to 1,000 years or whatever of spiritual salvation. And how the sumerian tablets mention EA the creator of people who fought for spiritual enlightenment for his creation and was made into the serpent that tempted Adam and Eve to bite the apple of Truth and knowledge. Jehovah's witness mentions EA in a negative light Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Satan was originally a perfect angel who developed feelings of self-importance and craved worship. Satan caused Adam and Eve to disobey God, and humanity subsequently became participants in a challenge involving the competing claims of Jehovah and Satan to universal sovereignty. it is also worth saying Jehovah wasn't the nicest of gods, he told the hebrews to embark on a genocide campaign killing people in towns that were wicked in which they killed everyone even children and animals.

My original interpretation understandings of evolution were held with skepticism too. The more I researched the topic though, the more sense it made, and the explanations for the things it seemed loose on came through.

I do agree though, if evolution was hypothetically proven wrong, it wouldn't do much to support Christianity over all the other alternatives. It's a defense mechanism though, evolution is attacked to prevent an understanding that would render Christianities genesis account false. It's attacked so Christianity doesn't get falsified, not to prove their beliefs.

~
Though I'd assume some slightly less rational ones do believe in the False Dichotomy of proving a scientific fact wrong means proving a completely evidence less story true. So I can't speak for all who fight evolution.

none of this answers my question, though i do appreciate all the replies.

To creationists: can you please answer my original question? I'm really curious.

Originally posted by chr0naut
reply to post by sgreco

 

How about a universe where God didn't wind the clock and walk away.

A universe where creation and speciation is still happening today.

Why do things CONSISTENTLY evolve new survival strategies at faster rates than evolution and genetic drift mandate?

Perhaps He's still here & doing stuff?

edit on 16/8/2011 by chr0naut because: (no reason given)

a universe where WHO didnt wind the clock and walk away? Which God are you referring to? Which religion's God?

reply to post by sgreco


It's probably some factors that we are not yet familiar with but I actually lean more towards the alien portion.

A lot of scientists tell me that evolution has nothing to do with "the creation of life" which they say just happened. Evolution has nothing to do with "The Big Bang Theory," which also just happened. Evolution has nothing to do with man's amazing ability to think differently than ALL the other animals on Earth.

Scientists also tell me that Creationism has no place in this science and yet... What about all those questions that are answered by a single answer? GOD! However, the way I look at the world, God is probably many Gods and the Gods are probably aliens. The very definition of God states that he is an alien. He lives in the Heavens above the Earth. Translates into space!!!!!

Because somebody, something, someone, some consciousness had to have started it all!!!!!!

reply to post by sgreco


Dear sgreco,

I love your question.

Is science and religion the only options available? If science has been improper and innacurate because of methods and assumptions, would a science founded on proper methods with no bias for or against anything be better? Why must the answer be christianity?

Could be anything, I am a Christian; but, your question is valid beyond my beliefs. I mean how can sentience exist within the box of evolution? All we know is that self-awareness and sentience exist, we have to work from there. Science states that it cannot even prove gravity should be; but, it does, I feel gravity. Feel it more and more as the years go by. What options do you want, religion, science, philosophy, where does proof and truth start?

I start with philosophy, read them all, they are fascinating. Then the sciences, what can we prove (but only after we understood Descartes)? Finally, one must consider religion again and choose as you will; but, nothing begins or ends with science. It begins and ends with us and we matter. Be well.

Originally posted by sgreco
none of this answers my question, though i do appreciate all the replies.

To creationists: can you please answer my original question? I'm really curious.

The only logical answer is....... we don't know, we can only speculate, and that my kind sir is the beauty of the master plan.

An alernate view:
I came across William Bramley's book Gods of Eden and was surprised by his revelations. The book does go into the subject that aliens have had an impact in our past starting with the ancient Sumerian texts in which the Sumerians write about how the gods became tired of mining on their own and created a new species by putting a god to death and mixing it with clay, a process that was possibly genetic engineering. The end result was homo sapien sapiens, a byproduct of the gods and the original homo sapiens. The original homo sapiens or homo sapien neanderthalensis also disappeared at the same time homo sapiens sapiens appeared suggesting that the gods might have exterminated the original homo sapiens to make room for the new slave race. Ancient tablets credit one god in particular EA as being creator of the slave race. EA is described as being sympathetic to his creation fighting for them to gain spiritual knowledge in contrast to his half-brother Enlil who wanted them to suffer and would call for famines and plagues when they got too noisy. Eventually Enlil called for a great flood to wipe out the homo sapiens. It seems to be agreed that many archeologists believe there was a great flood in the near east thousands of years ago. The Epic of Gilgamesh claims how a Babylonian named Utnapishtim was approached by EA and told that a wipe out of homo sapiens sapiens was planned. He was instructed to gather his family and livestock and build a ship to survive the flood which they did. This story is strikingly similar to Noah's ark as is the story of Adam and Eve. The god or lord god of the bible's Adam and Eve can be translated as the original god of earth. The story which is entirely symbolic says how Adam who is first man, was created by god from the dust of ground an idea reflected from the older belief that people were created partly with clay. Adam's wife Eve was also created artificially and they lived in the Garden of Eden where they were told that all of their physical needs would be met as long as they obeyed their masters and stayed in the garden. They were also told never to eat fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil which symbolizes an understanding of ethics and justice or the tree of life which represents how to retain one's spiritual identity and immortality. A snake convinces them to eat fruit from the tree and become like the gods. The gods did not want mankind to be able to spiritually recover as it would be difficult to make people who maintained their integrity and sense of ethics slaves and even harder when those same individuals are undowed by physical threats because of a reawakened grasp of their spiritual immortality. The gods wanted to permanently attach the spiritual beings to their bodies so they used the flaming sword to prevent them from gaining spiritual knowledge and never rising above material existence. A common misconception is that Adam and Eve were embarrassed about being naked as they ate from the tree of knowledge but it was not being naked that shamed them it was what nakedness represented. Ancient Mesopotamian records depict human beings as being naked while working while the gods were fully clothed. The implication is that Adam and Eve were degraded by their nakedness because it was the sign of their enslavement not that being naked in itself is bad. The brotherhood of the snake was created by EA and was devoted in the beginning to helping humans achieve spiritual salvation however were incapable to do so much like the snake in the Adam and Eve. EA was villonized his title changed from Prince of Earth to Prince of darkness and was labeled Satan or the mortal enenmy of a supreme being and keeper of hell. The brotherhood of the snake created a group of one god religions that such as Islam,Christianity, and Judiasm to keep people divided and created apocalyptic beliefs that constant final battles are necessary to achieve a new period of spiritual salvation. In my personal opinion and I may be wrong but it appears today most religions including Christianity and Islam call for final battles with Christianity warning of an Antichrist that will lead people to one other religion and one government, things that would probably be beneficial in a sense of being united but things the 'gods' don't want. Interestingly many of Jesus's beliefs are similar to Buddhism notably the "Serman on the Mount. Jesus supposedly did not want to be called the messiah as he knew that it was untrue and wanted to bring a real spiritual science to Palestine but the brotherhood forced the title on him leading the Romans to crucify him because of his political pretensions and paved the way for his name to be used to implant the very judgement day prophecies he opposed.

"If evolution is wrong then what's the alternative?" I'll have to go with "ancient astronauts" as the "Creator/s" of various species on this hellish planet and other worlds, too.

Originally posted by sgreco

a universe where WHO didn't wind the clock and walk away? Which God are you referring to? Which religion's God?

The true creator and supreme God. The one with bits described by all religions, but who is not fully described or defined by any.

The "I AM" God who is the source for everything. God defines all things but is outside of the definition by all things.

The being who is singular, but had to redefine itself as several complete entities to appreciate his own magnificent existence (if you were all that exists, how else could you know who you are?).

That one.

Evolution cannot be ‘wrong’. We see it in action all around us.

However, the theory of evolution by natural selection could be wrong. Unlikely, but it’s possible.

In that case, then the alternative would be another scientific explanation, such as Lamarckism, which appears to fit the observed facts of evolution. The explanation would be falsifiable and unfalsified.

Or else one would have to believe in a divine Meddler who is constantly fiddling about with Creation, either because He didn’t get it right first time or because He has a severe case of OCD.

Originally posted by Astyanax
...

Or else one would have to believe in a divine Meddler who is constantly fiddling about with Creation, either because He didn’t get it right first time or because He has a severe case of OCD.

It doesn't imply that He got it wrong at all. That's a pretty limited world view.

Perhaps this "divine meddler" is actually creative and enjoys "meddling". The universe/s are, after all, Gods toy.

An example I could use to explain this is: I play guitar and have written several songs. I don't just pack them away and never play them again when they are "finished". That's NOT the creative process. I play them over and over again and MOST times I try something new. I usually re-express my current feelings through songs that were never initially intended to convey those feelings. So a song with a happy theme can even express moments of great sadness and loss, perhaps by contrast. This is the creative process.

God is the ultimate creator.

Originally posted by chr0naut

Originally posted by sgreco

a universe where WHO didn't wind the clock and walk away? Which God are you referring to? Which religion's God?

The true creator and supreme God. The one with bits described by all religions, but who is not fully described or defined by any.

The "I AM" God who is the source for everything. God defines all things but is outside of the definition by all things.

The being who is singular, but had to redefine itself as several complete entities to appreciate his own magnificent existence (if you were all that exists, how else could you know who you are?).

That one.

edit on 17/8/2011 by chr0naut because: (no reason given)

Ah so creationism is an Agnostic view?