Well then....

Originally posted by The Axeman
So no one is denying or disputing the fact that Jesus is a Diety in ritual, but his status as the Son of God is simply not alluded to, leaving the interpretation to the individual, correct? Otherwise I can see how some Christians would take offense to this.

Definitely. It's never adressed as to whether Jesus was literally the same entity as the Supreme Creator. That's not for the Scottish Rite to decide -- it's up to the individual.

OK I think I understand. Heheh, I say that, then I will undoubtedly find myself awash in a sea of confusion once again when you guys get going like you do sometimes. I love it.

I don't know I guess it's because of the way I was raised and the Church I went to(or the fact that I am a Christian), but it seems odd to speak of Jesus without the reverence afforded Him by Christians.

So is the Maundy Thursday thing a ritual, or open discussion, or what? Argh! I can barely keep from blasting you guys with questions I know you can't answer, but I know I must wait and I will find out when it is my time.

In the meantime, though, what can you tell me about this? I have never heard of it before, is it a strictly Masonic tradition, or is it celebrated outside Masonry? Where did the name Maundy Thursday come from(aside from being observed on a Thursday, of course)?

[edit on 8/19/04 by The Axeman]

Lies that can be easily exposed as such, even.

And HAVE been... it is clear he lied from the record extent. Whether he did it because he is a fool and a poltroon, because of mental challenges, for money, because he was confused about christianity or a combination of the above, the plain fact is, he did lie.

He was NEVER a 33 degree mason, never asked, never invested, and as such, he never saw the degree as he claimed, never met those men in those circumstances, never had those conversations. So, Jim Shaw is a liar, and anyone that defends him, in face of the facts, is certainly not doing their position any service.

Originally posted by The Axeman
So is the Maundy Thursday thing a ritual, or open discussion, or what?

I can't talk in depth about the Maundy Thursday event (also known as the Feast of the Paschal Lamb), since we do not open it to the public. It is highly ritualistic. Speaking is not allowed at the meal (although the rule, sadly, has been relaxed, and I've heard a lot of talking in the past years -- this year was very good, though, and I heard almost nary a peep. I do not talk during the meal myself, unless necessary). There is a final ritual portion, commenting on the tragic crucifixion of Jesus, and then the meal is dismissed, and all present leave in silence.

The Easter Sunday morning ritual is much more merry. This ritual is also called "The Ceremony of Relighting the Lights." It's very cheery, and relates to (depending on how you want to interpret it) Jesus' resurrection and / or the re-establishment of religious truth and virtue in the World. This ceremony is open to the public (up here), so I can describe it in more detail. We sit at a cross-shaped table (although we have overflow tables on the sides for extra guests. The officers of the Rose-Croix body (I'm honoured to say I am one) sit at specific positions on the cross, and at the appropriate time read a little peace about re-invigoration / regeneration / ressurection, etc.. Then, everybody eats, and we talk as loud as we want. Usually, we also have a guest speaker. It's tremendously cheery.

Members of the Rose-Croix (i.e. those who have taken the 18th degree in the SR) are REQUIRED to observe the Maundy Thursday and Easter Sunday Festivities, and according to the charge we are given up here, we are required to do so with fellow members if they live within (I believe) three leagues of us. If you cannot find other Knights Rose-Croix, you are required to celebrate the feast and Easter as best you can by yourself. I'm quite happy to see this hard line, but sadly, even some members do not take it seriously (as is true for many of the hard lines that should be taken seriously in the various appendant and para-Masonic orders)

Thanks, Alex. As usual your response was enough to satisfy my curiosity, yet not so much that I am not still interested to know more.

I hope (being from po-dunk Arkansas and all) I can find a lodge around here that has members as knowledgeable as you gentlemen in Masonic history and lore. I truly look forward to the journey I will have to take in seeking this knowledge. Indeed, I believe my journey has already begun.


[edit on 8/19/04 by The Axeman]

Originally posted by AlexKennedy

Originally posted by The Axeman
So is the Maundy Thursday thing a ritual, or open discussion, or what?

I can't talk in depth about the Maundy Thursday event (also known as the Feast of the Paschal Lamb), since we do not open it to the public.

I find that interesting...in the USA (at least in the S.J.), the Maundy Thursday and Easter Sunday ceremonies are completely open to the public. Of course, our ceremonies are no doubt slightly different from yours, as we use the Pike ritual.

Axeman, next time Maundy Thursday comes around, you can call your local Scottish Rite Temple and ask if they will have open ceremonies. Some Valleys are currently replacing the Pike Maundy Thursday/Easter Sunday ceremonies with the "Ceremony of Renewal and Remembrance", which is based on the Pike work, but is organized for one meeting only (compared to the traditional extinguishing of the lights on Maundy Thursday evening, and their relighting on Easter morning).

Fiat Lvx.

[edit on 19-8-2004 by Masonic Light]

Originally posted by AlexKennedy

Originally posted by The Axeman
So is the Maundy Thursday thing a ritual, or open discussion, or what?

I can't talk in depth about the Maundy Thursday event (also known as the Feast of the Paschal Lamb), since we do not open it to the public. It is highly ritualistic. Speaking is not allowed at the meal (although the rule, sadly, has been relaxed, and I've heard a lot of talking in the past years -- this year was very good, though, and I heard almost nary a peep. I do not talk during the meal myself, unless necessary). There is a final ritual portion, commenting on the tragic crucifixion of Jesus, and then the meal is dismissed, and all present leave in silence.

The Easter Sunday morning ritual is much more merry. This ritual is also called "The Ceremony of Relighting the Lights." It's very cheery, and relates to (depending on how you want to interpret it) Jesus' resurrection and / or the re-establishment of religious truth and virtue in the World. This ceremony is open to the public (up here), so I can describe it in more detail. We sit at a cross-shaped table (although we have overflow tables on the sides for extra guests. The officers of the Rose-Croix body (I'm honoured to say I am one) sit at specific positions on the cross, and at the appropriate time read a little peace about re-invigoration / regeneration / ressurection, etc.. Then, everybody eats, and we talk as loud as we want. Usually, we also have a guest speaker. It's tremendously cheery.

Members of the Rose-Croix (i.e. those who have taken the 18th degree in the SR) are REQUIRED to observe the Maundy Thursday and Easter Sunday Festivities, and according to the charge we are given up here, we are required to do so with fellow members if they live within (I believe) three leagues of us. If you cannot find other Knights Rose-Croix, you are required to celebrate the feast and Easter as best you can by yourself. I'm quite happy to see this hard line, but sadly, even some members do not take it seriously (as is true for many of the hard lines that should be taken seriously in the various appendant and para-Masonic orders)

Interestingly, in the Scottish Rite (Southern Jurisdiction USA) the ritual is quite a bit different and Jesus isn't specifically but as "the Apostle of Liberty, Equality & Fraternity who was crucified 2000 years ago for proclaiming the law of love." Also, our Maundy Thursday Service and Sunday service of relighting the lights are often open to wives and close friends (at the descretion of the local Scottish Rite)

Funny how Masonry is so different in places yet so alike....

Originally posted by Masonic Light
Some Valleys are currently replacing the Pike Maundy Thursday/Easter Sunday ceremonies with the "Ceremony of Renewal and Remembrance", which is based on the Pike work, but is organized for one meeting only (compared to the traditional extinguishing of the lights on Maundy Thursday evening, and their relighting on Easter morning).

That's really too bad to hear. I'm never sure what Grand Lodges and Supreme Councils think they have to gain by digesting everything and taking what's special out of Freemasonry. I've heard people say it's to cope with those too busy for Freemasonry -- but if they're too busy to show up for meetings, degrees, and the Feast of the Paschal Lamb (for example), aren't they going to be too busy to study the degrees and do Lodge work? Sometimes I get the feeling that some of the higher-ups just want more candidates because they provide dues, and because they want more potential Shriners -- but then it passes

Originally posted by senrak
Interestingly, in the Scottish Rite (Southern Jurisdiction USA) the ritual is quite a bit different and Jesus isn't specifically but as "the Apostle of Liberty, Equality & Fraternity who was crucified 2000 years ago for proclaiming the law of love." Also, our Maundy Thursday Service and Sunday service of relighting the lights are often open to wives and close friends (at the descretion of the local Scottish Rite)

Funny how Masonry is so different in places yet so alike....

Well, not too different. Actually, I don't believe that Jesus is ever referenced by name in either of those rituals -- although it's obvious who we're talking about. And our Relighting of the lights is open not only to wives and close friends, but anyone willing to pay the $10 and behave themselves ($10 because we serve a deluxe breakfast -- the only better breakfast I know is the one at New Year's.

Please don't base everything you think about the SR in Canada on my say-so... I'm just talking from memory, so I might get something wrong

The rationale behind replacing the traditional observances is that many Brethren must attend church on Maundy Thursday evening and Easter Sunday morning; therefore, the new ceremony is recommended to be held on or near the Vernal Equinox, which will free the Brethren to attend church on the Holy Days as well as to attend the Rose Croix celebrations.

My Valley has gotten around this by observing Maundy Thursday at 9:30 P.M. (after most churches are over) and Easter observances at 7:00 A.M. (before church services begin).

The Mystic Banquet is held for Knights Rose Croix immediately preceding the Maundy Thursday Ceremony, but a big breakfast is served for all Brethren and visitors on Easter morning.

Fiat Lvx.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
My Valley has gotten around this by observing Maundy Thursday at 9:30 P.M. (after most churches are over) and Easter observances at 7:00 A.M. (before church services begin).

This is almost exactly what we do... except we start at 8 AM, not 7. I meant no offense at all to you or our brethren.

Glad to see this being discussed.

For the record, I had no idea who Shaw was, whether or not that story was a work of fiction or expected to be taken as truth. I just thought it was an interesting read that got my brain workin a little.

Originally posted by AlexKennedy

I've heard people say it's to cope with those too busy for Freemasonry -- but if they're too busy to show up for meetings, degrees, and the Feast of the Paschal Lamb (for example), aren't they going to be too busy to study the degrees and do Lodge work?

It seems like all these rituals and workstudy are a very large reason for joining the group in the first place

Sometimes I get the feeling that some of the higher-ups just want more candidates because they provide dues, and because they want more potential Shriners -- but then it passes

Must be those insidious illuminati-masonic mind control implants at work.....

Masonic Light:
The rationale behind replacing the traditional observances is that many Brethren must attend church on Maundy Thursday evening and Easter Sunday morning

This makes me wonder; now, of course, most of the original masons and the ones for a very long time in its history (i should think), were christians, and thus I would expect that many of the rituals and important dates would coincide christian holidays and what not.

But with the addition of more jews, muslims and hindus, I have to wonder if there are any masonic feastdays or whatever that coincide with their 'high holy days'? Of course, since many christian, jewish, and muslim holidays coincide in the first place, the answer must be yes, but what about days important to hindu memvbers?

Also, while on the subject of different religions within the group, from what I understand beleif in a supreme being is something of a requirement, but that this is lax enough to allow hindus to join, certainly the ones that are comfortable with honestly saying 'yes i do infact beleive in a supreme being'. Normally strict atheists tho wouldn't be able to join (indeed, why would they?). But are there any people or groups that are infact -religious- that would not be able to join on this qualification? Can followers of shinto join or other strict animists? I suppose it boils down to whether or not they can honestly say that the beleive in a supreme being/spirit/whatever, but are there any religions that would have a problem in this respect?

Originally posted by Nygdan
It seems like all these rituals and workstudy are a very large reason for joining the group in the first place

We mustn't confuse the means with the end. Ritual work improves the man, but the Work is not an end to itself. Good ritual work is vital, which is why such importance is placed on it -- but the effect is what's important.

Also, while on the subject of different religions within the group, from what I understand beleif in a supreme being is something of a requirement, but that this is lax enough to allow hindus to join, certainly the ones that are comfortable with honestly saying 'yes i do infact beleive in a supreme being'.

Of course. Hinduism is actually a Monotheist religion, since all gods within the Hindu pantheon are merely aspects, facets, or emanations from the universal Brahman (if I understand correctly -- I'd sure appreciate backup from an observant Hindu). Beside that, of course, many Hindu sects (and, of course, there is no single Hindu religion) believe in the "supremacy" of their personal favorite god (for example vaisnaists believe Vishnu is supreme over everyone else, Saivists believe that Siva is supreme).

Normally strict atheists tho wouldn't be able to join (indeed, why would they?). But are there any people or groups that are infact -religious- that would not be able to join on this qualification? Can followers of shinto join or other strict animists? I suppose it boils down to whether or not they can honestly say that the beleive in a supreme being/spirit/whatever

Exactly. And on how the Lodge and Grand Lodge chose to interpret the ancient charges (after all, remember that Freemasonry is run by people)

, but are there any religions that would have a problem in this respect?

I guess thats for the individual religious person to decide... do they believe in a Supreme Creator, or not?

Personally, I can't see myself turning away anyone who believes in a Supreme Creator, even if they're fuzzy on whether that being is one person or eight or whatever. After all, as a Christian, I believe that God has three Persons, so who am I to judge?

Originally posted by Nygdan
But with the addition of more jews, muslims and hindus, I have to wonder if there are any masonic feastdays or whatever that coincide with their 'high holy days'? Of course, since many christian, jewish, and muslim holidays coincide in the first place, the answer must be yes, but what about days important to hindu memvbers?

At the Blue Lodge level, there are two Masonic festivals, or "feast days": St. John the Baptist's Day and St. John the Evangelist's Day. The former is to commemorate the founding of the first Grand Lodge at London in 1717; the latter begins the Masonic year, and is the day that those elected officers by the Lodge assume their offices.

In the Scottish Rite, Lodges of Perfection celebrate the Feast of Tishri, a Hebrew festival; and Chapters of Rose Croix commemorate Maundy Thursday and celebrate Easter Sunday.

These festivals, as well as the Maundy Thursday observance, are celebrated by the Brethren regardless of their personal religious beliefs or affiliations.

Also, while on the subject of different religions within the group, from what I understand beleif in a supreme being is something of a requirement, but that this is lax enough to allow hindus to join, certainly the ones that are comfortable with honestly saying 'yes i do infact beleive in a supreme being'. Normally strict atheists tho wouldn't be able to join (indeed, why would they?). But are there any people or groups that are infact -religious- that would not be able to join on this qualification? Can followers of shinto join or other strict animists? I suppose it boils down to whether or not they can honestly say that the beleive in a supreme being/spirit/whatever, but are there any religions that would have a problem in this respect?

The belief in a Supreme Being, which is the only religious requirement in Masonry, is subjective. For example, one Buddhist may qualify, while another may not. It would be for the individual to decide for himself. The Lodge never asks a man what his religion is...instead, he is asked on his application if he believes in a Supreme Being, and is expected to answer honestly upon his honor.

Fiat Lvx.