You can't have Freedom and Safety

Originally posted by mwm1331


Now in and of itself is this a major violation of our rights to privacy? Yes and no it terms of phone communication all they can do is track who you call and who calls you which is no different than what the phone companies have been doing for years.

The problem with this is the phone comopany cannot kick in your door armed with machine guns and haul you off to prision without charges or legal aide.

Theres a difference

Yes Amuk you are correct. However the abillity to keep track of who you call was not established by the patriot act but by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act. While I agree that even this is a violation of privacy I was commenting only on the provisions of the "Patriot Act" itself

Another very scary thought is that there is no real concrete definition of Terrorist so you never know whether or not the government thinks of you as a terrorist or not.

Yesbut a civilization without risk is a civilization without progress! And my point is just to try to make people understand that the government is slowly getting more and more power which might be a good thing in the short run but is it going to be a good thing in the long run and i'm also trying to say that maybe we need to analyze the consequences of striving for total peace.

Originally posted by Kaiser617
edit: to add #'s

#1 My point of view is that you cant have both freedom and have a perfectly safe world with no terrorism or any other sort of things of that sort.

#2 The United States of America is trying to limit the freedom of its citixens very much like the Soviet Union controlled the rebelous areas of their south eastern border whos countries did not get along very well and were always fighting but as soon as the soviet Union stepped in they knew that they wernt going to mess around with anyone because the Soviet Union has a tendency to kill people. The United States is going in that direction in my belief.

#3 The United States is limiting our rights by going through 6 constitutional rights. My logic is this" you cant tell your child ok you can drive but youre not going to get in a car crash" that reasoning is illogical.

Sorry for adding #'s, it helps me a little

#1 Look at my sig.- this is a truism of history.

From Athens to Rome, olde England to the 1st (French) Republic, from Czarist Russia to the USSR, every society in history that has stived for security and that "quiet night's sleep" has ended up destroying itself.

#2 and #3 By taking the word trying out of your statement I generally agree. I don't necessarily "see" the USSR logical relevance but I think I understand the argument.

The Patriot Act (Electronic Privacy Information Institute)] is fraught with potential losses for the citizenry.
FOIA is weakened. FOIA is one of the very few means the citizenry has of obtaining information from its own government.

EPIC has received two sets of documents revealing that the scope of the FBI's powers under Section 215 of the USA PATRIOT Act is broader than what government officials have publicly acknowledged. Among other things, the documents show that the controversial provision can be used to collect information about innocent people and state that Section 215 may authorize law enforcement to obtain an individual's apartment keys

Government snooping is widened.

The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court granted 1724 applications for secret surveillance last year, more than in any previous year.

The Campaign for Reader Privacy has been launched by booksellers, authors and librarians. The campaign, which urges concerned citizens to sign a petition to Congress, seeks to amend Section 215 of the PATRIOT Act to "restore the privacy of our bookstore and library records."

Unlike some posters here, and people in real life, some cities have seen "the writting on the wall"

The New York City Council has passed a resolution against the USA PATRIOT Act, criticizing the law's infringement on privacy rights. New York City, target of the 9/11 terrorist attacks, is the 247th community in the United States to approve a measure condemning the law.

Electronic Frontier Foundation

Slate-msn

The list of available URLs with Patriot Act articles is long and seemingly endless. "A pig by another name is still a pig." The Patriot Act by itself is bad enough. With any more additional laws many things in American lives will slowly change.

'Right of assembly' will be curtailed. No more marches, no more people protesting unfair business or landlords, - - -

How many Guantanamo Bay camps does it take to scare people?

No lawyer, no judge, no charges - - -

How many T.V. programs suddenly "off the air" will it take?

How many web sites crashed, telephone calls monitored, travel tickets checked, food purchases monitored - - -

Give me some terrorist to hate - he I can focus on, he I can curse without fear of anything more than death.

Here's a REAL WORLD example of the government going to far. This case took 5 years to be ruled on. NASA lost!

Most readers probably assume NASA is a sugar-goody employer- not so. NASA lost a simple issue, one that should NEVER have arisen. Because of arrogance and that blind power a few government managers feel when they have the power to fire someone NASA had to post signs at every installation guaranteeing their employees that they (NASA) would not break the law- AGAIN!

Ask yourself this- is it right for you to be questioned by people that can fire or jail you without you having the right to know why they are questioning you or for thm to violate your rights to representation?

I'm not refering to someone that fits a "foreigner" profile- this guy was a government accountant!

Above all- doubt those that claim they are "here to help."

I totally agree with you PublicGadfly. Its not that we are putting things in ahypothetical sense but it is just that we are looking deeper than most people want us to look it is our obligation to deny ignorance and is life really worth it when we dont know whether or not people are following us and that will lead us to live in a life with constant fear of course by only those who go against the status quo and those that have reason

Bush has made us choose between freedom and protection unfortunatly so many of us have decided to give up our rights not only god given but constitutionaly given to us by the countries forfathers. We need to know that this war on terrorism is being used as a political tool along with the terrible acts of 9-11 wakeup people spread the news