You can't have Freedom and Safety

This is my point of view and you can all feel free to try to argue that is what i love about this website is the fact that we can debate and yet we can continue thinking our point of view is correct but ever so often we are shown a new perspective which we never realized could sound so good in other words thank you ATS

My point of view is that you cant have both freedom and have a perfectly safe world with no terrorism or any other sort of things of that sort. The United States of America is trying to limit the freedom of its citixens very much like the Soviet Union controlled the rebelous areas of their south eastern border whos countries did not get along very well and were always fighting but as soon as the soviet Union stepped in they knew that they wernt going to mess around with anyone because the Soviet Union has a tendency to kill people. The United States is going in that direction in my belief.

The United States is limiting our rights by going through 6 constitutional rights. My logic is this" you cant tell your child ok you can drive but youre not going to get in a car crash" that reasoning is illogical. If the USA continues going forward with its plans preety soon youre not going to have a lawn or a pool or other things why? Because it doesnt take nuclear reactors or nuclear weapons to make a bomb you can make a bomb with household iteams you can get a ath the hardware store. The USA is becoming apolitical state and we need to do something about it. I hope i have convinced some people out there and i will probably come back and post something else to further explain and clarify my point of view. Feel free to discuss any points you think are incorrect or maybe where my logic is wrong.


[edit on 19-8-2004 by John bull 1]

you cant have both freedom and have a perfectly safe world

Never could, but the risks associated with freedom are worth it.

A life without liberty is not a life worth living.

We Used to have freedom and safety.

intelligent post, unlike so many others, and for that I applaud. but I do disagree. I fail to see these major limits on freedom. most people who say that are living in the hypothetical...as in "if we're doing this NOW, then imagine what we'll be doing LATER", and I find that ridiculous. what freedom of mine has been limited? what, I might get in more trouble if I mouth off to a cop now? well that's just something you shouldn't do in the first place. here's another problem I have. so much of what people are calling our "freedoms" are really just privileges. so many people have grown accustom to these lap of luxury lives we live and they think under no circumstances should they give that up.

Originally posted by astroblade
intelligent post, unlike so many others, and for that I applaud. but I do disagree. I fail to see these major limits on freedom. most people who say that are living in the hypothetical...as in "if we're doing this NOW, then imagine what we'll be doing LATER", and I find that ridiculous. what freedom of mine has been limited? what, I might get in more trouble if I mouth off to a cop now? well that's just something you shouldn't do in the first place. here's another problem I have. so much of what people are calling our "freedoms" are really just privileges. so many people have grown accustom to these lap of luxury lives we live and they think under no circumstances should they give that up.

I never seem to say the right things. So thank you Astroblade for taking the words in my head and making them come out right. Mine always get lost in translation.

Without freedom, everything else is meaningless. If that means less safety, then that is fine. I am confident that nothing dangerous will take my life.

To impose safety would be to impose control onto an individual. It will create a boundary to that person's pursuit of happyness. It is through mass education and learned wisdom does an individual aquire the internal power to handle the responsiblity.

Freedom is viewed as a priviledge by those who are willing to discard it in the illusion of safety or are willing to control others. Now that is dangerous.

Did you know that with the Patriot Act now in effect the government can tap all your phones and they can wire your house all this without a court order or a warrant. Now if you dont think thats wrong then i dont know what it. Does this sound like Big Brother to anyone the government can have all your records and findout what you buy who you hang out with and what you do in your spare time the government can keep a watchfull eye on you now is that what we really want is this worth it ? DO WE REALLY WANT TO LOOSE OUR RIGHT JUST TO BE "SAFE" you cant ever be safe. I have to agree with socrates in his points about it being more important not living but living the good life.

There was nothing wrong with the system as it used to be before 9/11...it was just the morons that cant read documents such as "Bin Laden Determined to Attack America" (I think that was the title, pretty close though)!!!! We dont need our freedom limited under the guise of national security, if it starts happening then you can say "Hello Nazi America"......


....hmmm, funny thing, the Bush family was major contributers to the Nazi Party and their Propaganda machine...mainly Prescott Bush, GWB's grandfather! This reeks of irony...

Originally posted by Kaiser617
Did you know that with the Patriot Act now in effect the government can tap all your phones and they can wire your house all this without a court order or a warrant. Now if you dont think thats wrong then i dont know what it.

Call me naive, but I don't think they are going to just randomly tap yours, mine or anyones phones just because they can. For one they don't have the man power to monitor it all. So, no this does not really bother me.

Also, Freedom, yes is a right. But, certain freedoms are a priviledge, IMO.

Originally posted by Jazzerman
"Hello Nazi America"......


....hmmm, funny thing, the Bush family was major contributers to the Nazi Party and their Propaganda machine...mainly Prescott Bush, GWB's grandfather! This reeks of irony...

Really? Never heard that before. Could I ask you for some proof? Not being rude, just curious is all

Here are but a few links to the Bush/Nazi connection...its recorded in financial history, which is an even better way to know history because its always recorded!

search.yahoo.com...

www.lpdallas.org...

emperors-clothes.com...

www.twf.org...

www.tarpley.net...

If you want more info just do a seach of Bibliography information contained in these websites...its 100% correct Historical proof that there are connections between the Bush family and the Nazi's. I remember learning a little bit about this in my "Contemporary American History" class in college, and I was actually going to do my Thesis on there connection, but decided to do something else.

[edit on 18-8-2004 by Jazzerman]

jazzerman, if you're ok with living with terrorism as a occasional threat, fine, but i don't. i think the world has had to deal with islamic terroism for long enough. it's about time with actually do something to try to stop it. now many think we'll never stop it, so it's worth trying. well people who are that pessemistic are damn fools. some people believe the current efforts to combat terrorism are ill-concieved. well i say give it a chance. we won't really know how things work out for another 10 or more years. by the way, jazzerman, none of those sources are credible. i have indeed seen this information before, and it was on some other two-bit, backwards website that had no credibility. do you really believe not a single mainstream news organization wouldn't broadcast the hell out of a nazi connection to bush if it really existed? some people would say they wouldn't because they're all controlled by "the Elite". i laugh at people like that to their face because they've taken paranoia to another level. and i'm with bobafett on the wire tapping scenario. no ones going to tap your phones for the hell of it. there is no "Big Brother" that's trying to learn every mundane thing about every single citizen. as i mentioned before, several people, now in this thread, are working in the hypothetical.

So, not credible...how about the Washington Times for one

washingtontimes.com...

or, how about the National Archives

www.mbpolitics.com...

or do a search at their site: www.archives.gov...



or perhaps the best of all...the Republican controlled FOX NEWS

www.foxnews.com...




Is this credible enough?

Or just read this book which was Winner of the 2003 Best Book of the Year by the International Human Rights Award:

www.waragainsttheweak.com...



astroblade....it truely does feel good to be right

[edit on 18-8-2004 by Jazzerman]

jazzerman, thank you for those sources, they're far more credible. however in your own postings your bush/nazi connection meets it's own demise.

from the washington times article..."The documents do not show any evidence that Mr. Bush (Prescot Bush, GWB's grandfather) directly aided that effort. His position with Union Banking never was a political issue for Prescott Bush, who was elected to the Senate from Connecticut in 1952." the connection of the Nazi party to our current president is as follows...our president is the grandson of a man who was a director of a bank that was the bank of a german industrialist who aided Hitler's rise to party. that connection is so far removed from our president it's ridiculous. Prescott Bush wasnt even THE director of the said bank, he was one of a group of seven men. the fox news article states the same thing. jazzerman, i know damn well you were trying to connect bush and the nazi party, perhaps even call him a nazi. you failed miserably.


oh man get off your pedestal. i was going to leave this post as is but then i saw your added remark of "astroblade...it truly does feel good to be right." what are you, egocentric. you know the difference between you and me. i don't make little quick cuts like that, i've outgrown them.


[edit on 18-8-2004 by astroblade]

[edit on 18-8-2004 by astroblade]

My apologies, sorry you cant take a little humor and have fun here Why else would I have put a "" at the end of that statement.

PS- The information is there for you to read. I will connect the Bush family and the Nazi's because of these ties. What you pointed out in the article is purely the opinion of that news source, but does not mean there was not connections between the two. The information I have seen at the National Archives seems to prove that there was a connection, but for those that refuse to see it....well, Im just not going to be able to change their minds I guess.

By the way, I was not trying to suggest that Bush is a Nazi, but his family does have Nazi ties, and many of his ramblings about his views seem very "Nazi-like". The pure fact is, no matter if you admit it or not, the Bush's are connected to the Nazi party, directly or indirectly.

Of course no legitimate news source is going to come out arms up and say Bush is affiliated with the Nazi Party. So each news source relays their own opinions on the matter by saying "they dont think their are ties", but like I said before...the information is there for you to read. In fact, go look up the primary source documents yourself........there are ties!!!

"He who gives up his essential liberties for security deserves neither liberty or security." -Benjamin Franklin

Originally posted by astroblade
most people who say that are living in the hypothetical...as in "if we're doing this NOW, then imagine what we'll be doing LATER", and I find that ridiculous.

Social change and tolerance of new standards comes gradually. Right now the US government is locking people up indefinitely without rights to trial, counsel, or charges. This is being done in 'exceptional' cases with so-called 'enemy combatants.' Well...

First time it's an exception. Second time, it's an accident. Third time, the exception is the rule.

In World War Two we didn't do anything like what we do now with these 'exceptions.' In the Cold War we didn't do anything like this. Spies are investigated, charged, and tried. Now we can just take people and throw them away, gulag-style.

This is unacceptable in the USA, if you were to ask me.

well i still hold your idea of "humor" in question, but i accept your apology and i apologize in return if i was overly hostile. but, come on, we all knew where you were heading with this information. i fully understand if you want this arguement to die here and now, but i'm also trying to get you to see something. 2 article's you posted did in fact say the connections only want as far as i stated in my last post. what i referred to from the washington times article was not the writers opinion. in fact the National Archives prove what I have said. follow me on this. all of these events (Prescott Bush being director, the bank being seized, and suchforth) happened. then they're doumented. the documents are classified for sometime (decades). then the documents are declassified. these documents ARE the National Archive documents that you've seen. in other words, the National Archives states exactly what i've said previously. then, the Associated Press, the most honored media outlet in the world, reviews these National Archives documents, and even they come to the conclusion about the connection i've mentioned previously. the AP writes it's article and the Washinton Times picks it's up. that is the article you in fact posted. the fact that the Fox News article comes to the same conclusion as the AP is suporting evidence. this is all very simple dot-to-dot connections. if all of this doesn't sway you from believing that our president doesn't have a connection to nazism then i don't know what would. you say i'm refusing to see it, i say your make leaps in logic and trying to connect dots that just don't connect.