IDs* reportedly found @ Shanks: 75% of the 4 hijackers, only 12.5% of the 40 passengers

reply to post by ATH911

Those remains were gathered by the FBI and other investigators from the 50-foot-deep pit the Boeing 757 jet gouged in a reclaimed strip mine, and from the woods adjoining the crash site.

But searchers also gathered surprisingly intact mementos of lives lost.

Those items, such as a wedding ring and other jewelry, photos, credit cards, purses and their contents, shoes, a wallet and currency, are among seven boxes of identified personal effects salvaged from the site. They sit in an El Segundo, Calif., mortuary and will be returned to victims' families in February.

"We have some property for most passengers," said Craig Hendrix, a funeral coordinator and a personal effects administrator with Douglass Air Disaster Funeral Coordinators, a company often contacted by airlines after devastating crashes.

www.post-gazette.com...

They have property for most of the passengers. End of story. Don't believe them? Call Douglass Air Disaster Funeral Coordinators. Or the families of the victims. Or you can post crap on the internet all day and keep repeating "inside job" "inside job".

By the way, see the part about the 50 foot deep pit?

Originally posted by ATH911

Originally posted by wmd_2008
Did a quick google search put in "survives fire" got lots of links look at this one

19th century Indian necklace survives fire

Um, not sure how you can compare the two. Where was the great fire in Shanksville?

And Guadagno's personal effects supposedly crashed into that field officially at 580 mph with a 60 ton aluminum plane around it.

How fast did that necklace in the plastic box land where it did?

It was in reply to the passport from the tower impact to show you can't assume how things will survive a fire is that ok!!!

Originally posted by thedman
As usual have problems with reading comprehension....

Post was referring to a fire where the necklace survived, it was not in Shanksville . As usual cant discern the facts from delusions

Um, I know. Did you see where I said "Um, not sure how you can compare the two"? But please feel free to keep making yourself look like an ass.

As for Guadago badge - you are aware that numerous items survived the crash of space shuttle COLUMBIA
in 2003 ? It broke up at speed of 12,000 mph at altitude of 200,000 ft. Exampled how did video tapes,
notebooks, even dish of worm survived such a crash. ?

Many item survived Shanksville including clothing, bags of mail - objects often survive the crash

You have no idea why I'm singling out personal effects with names or photos on it, do you? Let me know if you need me to walk your hand through it.

As for fire - Ever see a high impact crash scene ?. I have. Much of the jet fuel gets dispersed
aersolized - it ignites in a large fireball. Very impressive. Yet will quickly burn out. We had the post crash fires
out in 10 minutes What was left was strong odor of jet fuel from who didn't burn

So what's his name comparison with the necklace stewing in fire was really a ridiculous comparison?!

About the fire explosion Flight 93 would have made, are you saying the fuel turned into mist, raised through the air, then ignited?

Originally posted by wmd_2008

It was in reply to the passport from the tower impact to show you can't assume how things will survive a fire is that ok!!!

What bubbled around to protect the passport then?

Originally posted by thedman
Liz Glick (widow of Jeremy Glick)

"So what am I getting back?" I asked Miller when he got off the phone.
"A credit card", he said. "It got melted some but it's mostly intact"...

Btw,

where's your source to this?

reply to post by ATH911


Dont know why you ask fior sources - *you* will simply claim its fake and lie....

Here is excerpt from Lyz Glick, widow of Jeremy Glick commenting on personal effects found at crash scene

Early one afternoon in July 2002, I received in the post a white
folder entitled “Unassociated Personal Effects of Flight 93”. The return address was Douglass Personal Effects Administrators, a company in California. It was the mortuary handling the crash of United Flight 93, the hijacked plane that went down in a Pennsylvania field on the morning of September 11, 2001.
My heart began pounding. My husband Jeremy had died on that plane after trying—along with a group of other passengers—to take it back from the gang of assassins who had murdered people on the plane and intended to use it to kill more people on the ground. Piecing Jeremy’s story together had become my life’s work. I wanted our daughter Emmy, just three months old when Jeremy died, to know about her father. I managed to wait until she was having her nap that afternoon before opening the folder. In it were colour photographs of everything found at the crash site that was not clearly linked to a particular person.
As wrenching as this was for me, I knew that I’d done the hardest thing already: I had said goodbye to my soulmate, the only man I ever loved. Jeremy’s wedding ring didn’t survive, but 70 other pieces of jewellery did, along with a bewildering array of socks, hats, shoes and other items of clothing that somehow made it through the crash and the fire that followed. There were also things such as keys, books and dozens of snapshots of children. I had packed Jeremy’s bag for his business trip to California—a salesman for an Internet services company, he hated packing—so I knew exactly what he’d had with him. For a while I scrutinised a pair of khaki trousers, but they were the wrong brand and size.
Then, on the second page of the men’s underwear section, I came across a pair of black briefs. They were savagely torn and badly discoloured, but there was no doubt they were Jeremy’s.
I felt queasy and had to put the folder down. I got up and walked round the house until I felt better; then I sat down and finished the job.
Near the end, at the bottom of one page, was an American Express personal organiser, its cover burned and curled away. “Many travel dates,” read the notes next to the picture. “Numbers for Jim Best, Rob Crozier, Greg Fitzgerald.” Jimmy! One of our closest friends. Rob, a pal of Jeremy’s at university. Greg, a neighbour of ours. There it was, bound in leather, or what was left of the leather now—Jeremy’s organiser.

reply to post by thedman


Your ad-hom attack makes you (... look like...) you're losing the debate.

What was the source of Glick's wife comment? Afraid to post it?

reply to post by ATH911


It is excerpted here

shop.readersdigest.co.uk...

Also quoted in new book

"THE 11th DAY: The Full Story of 9/11 and Osama Bin Laden" by NY Times reporters Antjony
Summers /Robbyn Swann. Just came out. l

reply to post by thedman

So if that's the case, it now stands at...

IDs* reportedly found @ Shanks: 75% of the 4 hijackers, only 15% of the 40 passengers


Wow, that's so less suspicious.

reply to post by ATH911


What are talking about is personal effects which can be matched to an individual. FBI was able to find
effects (passports, etc) to conclusively match to 3 of the hijackers.

Needed to do this to confirm ID of hijackers - used as evidence at Moussaoui trial

Filled a notebook with other effects - shoes, clothings, papers, etc. Some could be easily matched to
certain passengers, things with names on them. Rest was just jumble of clothing, often torn, partially burnt
Lot of Jewelry - some 70 pieces. Difficult to ID unless engraved or unique.

Some of the effects used as evidence at Moussaoui trial - things like Cee Cee Lyles drivers license, Richard
Guadagno badge

Not much reason to spend time trying to match rest with owners

There seems to be a misunderstanding here. The suspicion does not rest solely on the fact that IDs of the hi-jackers were recovered, the suspicious part (which is the title of the OP...) is that that 75% of the hi-jackers had their ID recovered, while only 12-15% of the passengers had their ID recovered.

The calculation done by tezza on the first page found this:

In other words, given that eight positive IDs were made, the chance that three of them were from hijackers and five of them were from passengers is almost 1.5%

Fragile things can survive plane crashes, this has happened before, however the ratio of the survival of these fragile items of the hijackers vs. the fragile items of the passengers is the suspicious part.


Hijackers vs. Passengers:
3/4 : 5/40

Very suspicious indeed, but of course to official story believers there is nothing out of the ordinary here.

Hi People,

Just a gentle reminder to 'play the ball and not the player'.

Lets keep it all focussed on the *topic* and not go down the personal commentary at one another route please.


Thanks people.

reply to post by TupacShakur

Those items, such as a wedding ring and other jewelry, photos, credit cards, purses and their contents, shoes, a wallet and currency, are among seven boxes of identified personal effects salvaged from the site. They sit in an El Segundo, Calif., mortuary and will be returned to victims' families in February.

"We have some property for most passengers," said Craig Hendrix, a funeral coordinator and a personal effects administrator with Douglass Air Disaster Funeral Coordinators, a company often contacted by airlines after devastating crashes.
.

Seven boxes of effects ....????

Looks like lot more items were matched to individuals. Problem is only few names are mentioned

Since receiving the personal effects of Flight 93 passengers from the FBI in early November, Douglass has been preparing the items for return. For example, about two weeks ago, FBI agents presented the wedding ring and wallet of passenger Andrew Garcia to his wife, Dorothy, in Portola Valley, Calif.

But before the FBI delivered the ring to Garcia, which was inscribed with "All my love, 8-2-69," Douglass sent it to a jeweler for cleaning and repair.

Around Thanksgiving, Jerry and Beatrice Guadagno of Ewing, N.J., received word that their son Richard's credentials and badge from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service had been found by the FBI at the crash site.
.

Also is up to family members to describe and claim the effects

Soon after the crash, the FBI and Miller asked victims' families to fill out forms detailing physical descriptions of relatives on the flight and what jewelry, clothing and personal effects they carried.

Hendrix said the personal effects that survived the crash were ejected from the plane at the moment of impact.

Garcia received her items early because she had described them in detail to investigators. The Guadagnos surmise they received Richard's credentials early because of his status as a federal employee.

In the meantime, Douglass is refurbishing jewelry, straightening credit cards and photos with steam heat, and topically disinfecting most other items.

When the FBI releases to Douglass the "unassociated" material gathered from the crash site -- items that haven't been matched to an individual on Flight 93 -- the company will photograph each item and compile a catalog for victims' families. Members can then make claims for items they recognize.

reply to post by thedman


I see, so the individuals included in the OP are only the ones whose personal items have been accounted for?

However on the topic of IDs, family members would not need to claim those in order for it to be identified with the victim, since their names would be on them.

So I think the statistics in the OP are pretty accurate in the comparison between IDs of hijackers vs passengers.

Originally posted by TupacShakur
There seems to be a misunderstanding here. The suspicion does not rest solely on the fact that IDs of the hi-jackers were recovered, the suspicious part (which is the title of the OP...) is that that 75% of the hi-jackers had their ID recovered, while only 12-15% of the passengers had their ID recovered.

Ding! Ding! Ding!

We have a winner!

Originally posted by TupacShakur
reply to post by thedman

 

I see, so the individuals included in the OP are only the ones whose personal items have been accounted for?

However on the topic of IDs, family members would not need to claim those in order for it to be identified with the victim, since their names would be on them.

So I think the statistics in the OP are pretty accurate in the comparison between IDs of hijackers vs passengers.

No, the point is that only the ID's of the hijackers were posted on the internet because of a public criminal trial. The internet is not the total sum of reality. Images and inventories of the personal effects of the passengers were not all released, that does not mean that they do not exist. To make that argument you would need to have someone in a real and official capacity state to the effect only those items listed in the OP were found at the site. What the poster is comparing is not what was or was not found at the site, but what and what was not found on the internet.

reply to post by hooper

No, the point is that only the ID's of the hijackers were posted on the internet because of a public criminal trial. The internet is not the total sum of reality. Images and inventories of the personal effects of the passengers were not all released, that does not mean that they do not exist. To make that argument you would need to have someone in a real and official capacity state to the effect only those items listed in the OP were found at the site. What the poster is comparing is not what was or was not found at the site, but what and what was not found on the internet.

Good point. However until the IDs of the passengers are accounted for and made public, these will be the only ones that we currently know of. I don't think it's fair to just assume that the passengers IDs were all recovered when there are no records of this.

reply to post by TupacShakur

I don't think it's fair to just assume that the passengers IDs were all recovered when there are no records of this.

First, no one said ALL the passennger ID's were recovered. Secondly, you assume that there is no record of the items recovered for the passengers, more correctly stated would be that there is no publi record of the items recovered. Big difference. In the absence of actual records the OP is therefore meaningless.

And as I have shown, we do have someone in a semi-official capacity (the disaster recovery firm) stated that effects for most of the passengers were recovered.

reply to post by hooper

First, no one said ALL the passennger ID's were recovered. Secondly, you assume that there is no record of the items recovered for the passengers, more correctly stated would be that there is no publi record of the items recovered. Big difference. In the absence of actual records the OP is therefore meaningless.

My bad, there is no record of the IDs of the passengers that has been released to the public, but there could be a record somewhere.

You make a good point, but I really feel that these records have to be somewhere online. I mean isn't there some database where all of this stuff is held at? Why isn't this open to public access?

I'm not necessarily saying that there is anything to hide in the debris from the Shanksville crash, I just think the common people should have access to these kinds of things, you know?

And as I have shown, we do have someone in a semi-official capacity (the disaster recovery firm) stated that effects for most of the passengers were recovered.

By "effects" do you mean like rings and bracelets and stuff like that? Or does that mean IDs for the passengers?

So many things survive a crash, still all we have is a ditch and nothing recognisable in it?
Sorry to point out, cant have it both ways...