Who's Picking Your Berries? America's DISGRACEFUL little secret!

Wow! Embarrassing! Child labor is wrong, there is a reason why a person has to be 16 years of age to get a job. This is a social catastrophe that if not corrected will degenerate the social and cultural life of the cities and towns where it occurs.

reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
You are implying that only conservative capitaists are forcing their children and the children of migrant mexicans into agricultural labor? Typical class warfare nonsense of socialists. Marx would be so proud of you. By the way he had a maid.

I think you misunderstood me.

As a cursory view of my posting history reveals, I happen to be a conservative.

reply to post by deadeyedick

Originally posted by deadeyedick
reply to post by loam

 

I think you may be missing the fact that people die no matter who or where they are....I pray that your eyes will soon see the real problems.

I doubt I'm the one missing the point.

Let's be clear. I'm not focusing on the family farm or blaming the impoverished migrant worker or even opposed to the older teenager working, provided it is in reasonably safe conditions.

But when we are talking about children as young as five, I think that well crosses the line-- particularly when we are talking about large commercial growers.

The original source articles presented in this thread provide ample examples of this disgraceful nonsense.

In my view, something is seriously broke in this country, if we permit such a thing to routinely happen.

Most of the replies in this thread seem to be talking past this issue, imo.

reply to post by loam


I guess thats why you are attacking small farms rather than the giant oligarchies like Con-Agra.

Heak yea, when I was a kid in Washington State, we picked strawberries every summer. We made money by the basket, if we could keep from eating them. and lots of other kids did too, what's wrong with America now days, you bickh about illegals only doing what Americans wont, we did it, and liked it, we could work what ever days we wanted and as long as we wanted, and we bought brand new Schwinn Bicycles, and not the cheepies either. The nanny state is killing us. We will work, get rid of the illegals.

I think the biggest issue here is OP and ABC aren't putting any blame on the parents. Yes, Diane Sawyer made a cursory mention of it, but ABC is more about blaming the big corporations (mentioned many times, versus the one mention of the parents). If the parents didn't bring them to the fields there would be no issue. Children imitate their parents and love to help, especially at that age. I find it curious that the original story did not interview parents or children, instead let some activist and correspondents (ratings whores) speak for them. Perhaps if allowed to speak, there would be less of an issue (kids likely there because they are undocumented, or avoiding daycare), or more of an issue as many of those parents are likely here illegally.

Push comes to shove, make changes with your pocketbook and/or a pen and paper. Don't buy berries in the store or write the "big corporations" a letter.

reply to post by loam

I see your point about the big corps.However this is up to the parents like another member stated.
The real crime is all the chemicals that workers are exposed to.

First of all I had no idea that children 12 and older could work unlimited hours under the umbrella of the agricultural business. I would not think this disgraceful if it weren't for the fact that the companies who are employing these kids are basically extorting them, since many are undocumented. It is because of things like this that we have an immigration problem. In 2nd grade my math teacher told me that 2 + 2 always equals 4...We wouldn't have a problem with illegal immigration in our country if no one would employ them.

So it wouldn't be that bad if the pay was good and the work wasn't too strenuous, and they were doing it of their own free will. I say this because some kids may actually WANT to work, and if they are going to be allowed to, it should be done right. I mean they are just kids. They should never be expected to have the productivity of a grown person.

I am not really shocked by this, and am really more shocked that the law basically causes, and/or promotes some of this behavior...even if inadvertently.

This is a social catastrophe that if not corrected will degenerate the social and cultural life of the cities and towns where it occurs

reply to post by bartholomeo


What??? This has been going on since the beginning of life on earth. Kids help the family when it is practical. The kids certainly should not be worked hard from dusk until dawn. That is cruel for anyone. But not allowing kids to work has broken down the fabric of society. It leaves kids with nothing to do but get in to trouble. Working gives kids something to be proud of. Not giving them responsibility makes them think they are special and leads to them feel they are entitled to everything for free.

I started working at 14, which was the legal age at the time; otherwise I would have started sooner. I had to save money for college. When I reached 16 they changed the legal working age to 16. If I had not been able to start at 14 I would not have been able to afford college. These child labor laws that are there to "protect" children are detrimental to those that want to work to save for themselves or those who have to work because they want to have enough to eat.

That being said there is a point when helping out the family becomes too much and turns to cruelty. Where that line between chores and “horrible child labor” is depends on your point of view. There is no way I can tell from the article if these kids are being whipped from dawn to dusk to pick more or if they pick a bucket then go play for an hour then pick another bucket an go play again.

Really is it our job to judge what is going on with limited information and jump to conclusions and rush to enforce laws that would ruin the livelihood of families that are already struggling. A better solution would be to ensure the parents are paid a living wage and then they would not have to bring their kids to the fields. Until then we should assume that the parents are doing the best they can and know what is best for their kids.

Originally posted by loam
reply to post by TheWalkingFox

 

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
It's not shocking. It's capitalism.

If that were true, there wouldn't be child labor in China or much elsewhere in the world.

You very clearly do not understand the situations in china or in most places in the world. This isn't 1952, friend. Communism has been extinct as a meaningful political theory for nearly thirty years, globe-wide. China's every bit as capitalist as we are - and going by the systems of capitalism itself, they're probably more so.

The WTO and other trade organizations have made pirate capitalism the world standard.

Capitalism isn't to blame....moral depravity and poverty are to blame...

Where do you think an economic system that rewards sociopathic behavior stems from?

The fact is, as a species, much of humanity tends to think of their children as chattel.

Plain and simple.

edit on 12-8-2011 by loam because: (no reason given)

Unfortunately true. And in most nations - including the US - the law at least partially backs this notion.

I didn't see the videos yet but my first impression is - So What?

That little kid looks happy. Other countries may not have child labor laws like we have. If the kids and family are not treated as slaves, and it's part of their way of life and they accept it, who are we Americans to say this is wrong? We then become the wrong doers, the intruders trying to force our views on their society.

Where do I draw the line in the sand? When humans are used and abused, such as some kids working in some sweat shops I have seen.

If they are happy, and willing, let them be, if human rights abuses are found that's a horse of another color, but you cannot say it's wrong for kids to work in fields simply because they are kids. It can teach them responsibility and workmanship at an early age.. something many American teenagers should be taught earlier in life.

Not so long ago it was standard practice in the USA to have lots of kids simply to have more people to help tend the farms. These kids would work along side the adults working harder than most folks do today and it was accepted. These kids grew up and turned out great with no psychological scars.

reply to post by JohnPhoenix


There's a few things...

1) A kid can be happy running around and picking grapes, sure. Done it myself. Thing is, there's a difference between doing it for an afternoon for fun, and doing it day after day after day after day on strict hours because your family's livelihood depends on it, and if you don't the boss calls INS and you get sent back to wherever. We're not talking about a weekend at the farm, we're talking about factory labor.

2) Do you think these kids are paid as much for their labor as adults? leaving aside for a moment the probability that the adults are being exploited for their labor as well, do you really think the kids are getting paid as much as they should? Very probably not. Thus they are effectively being stolen from.

3) Kids' bodies are, bullcrap to the contrary aside, rather more fragile than adults'. Their physical needs are greater. They can suffer heat exhaustion and dehydration more easily. Do you think that there are considerations in place? Of course not, because if they aren't there for the adult laborers (I assure you, they're not.) then they certainly won't be there for child laborers.

4) do the kids actually have a choice in the matter? Odds are their parents are pressured to pressure them. This is double levels of exploitation, effectively forcing these kids to work for a pittance in hostile conditions against their will, while stressing the parents greatly.

And there's a huge difference between the "family farm" and this. Mainly in the fact that the family farm was subsistence, self-sustaining. The children worked on the farm because doing so helped bring prosperity to the family as a whole. This is not the case on gigantic agrabusiness farms. The laborers here are working for wages below poverty level with no benefits or protections. Their work does not go towards the betterment of the family or community, it goes towards making sure Wal-Mart has cheap blueberries to throw out if they don't sell in two days.

All so that you can have a little basket of raspberries - which costs you more to buy than is paid to the people who picked them by a factor of nearly six.

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by loam

 

Who made this about conservatives? You are implying that only conservative capitaists are forcing their children and the children of migrant mexicans into agricultural labor? Typical class warfare nonsense of socialists. Marx would be so proud of you. By the way he had a maid.

Did you know that it was most often the slaves in the "big house" that ratted out their fellow slaves when there was talk of freedom? That's you. See, you don't mind the whip, so long as it's being slashed against someone else's back. You think the chance to stand by and watch massa and missus eat is worth your freedom - even though they don't give you anything more than what they give the slaves down in the field. So when there's talk of rebellion down in the cabins, you're the first one to tug massa's ear and get him down there with his shotgun right quick. After all, it's not "war" in your eyes - it's daddy providing needed discipline to them uppity negros.

The class war has been going on for the greater part of a century, friend. it's just that it's quislings and stockholm sufferers such as yourself don't want to see who's been doing most of the shooting.

As for Marx, might I suggest reading his work before tossing his name around? Much like Adam Smith, he doesn't actually say anything you think he does.

What about child-babysitters?

The sitter is often under 16 years of age; the child almost never has a business license, no income or social security taxes are being paid, etc.

Don't even get me started on lemonade stands...


Oh wait, those categories are OK because it's middle class white kids doing it to buy video games.


When it's the little brown children, doing it to buy milk, well then it's a huge problem. Nothing hypocritical about that, right?

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by loam

 

Who made this about conservatives? You are implying that only conservative capitaists are forcing their children and the children of migrant mexicans into agricultural labor? Typical class warfare nonsense of socialists. Marx would be so proud of you. By the way he had a maid.

Did you know that it was most often the slaves in the "big house" that ratted out their fellow slaves when there was talk of freedom? That's you. See, you don't mind the whip, so long as it's being slashed against someone else's back. You think the chance to stand by and watch massa and missus eat is worth your freedom - even though they don't give you anything more than what they give the slaves down in the field. So when there's talk of rebellion down in the cabins, you're the first one to tug massa's ear and get him down there with his shotgun right quick. After all, it's not "war" in your eyes - it's daddy providing needed discipline to them uppity negros.

The class war has been going on for the greater part of a century, friend. it's just that it's quislings and stockholm sufferers such as yourself don't want to see who's been doing most of the shooting.

As for Marx, might I suggest reading his work before tossing his name around? Much like Adam Smith, he doesn't actually say anything you think he does.

OH my that was the saddest post yet.do we really have to get the uncle tom speech from someone who claims love and tolerance.We have gotten past that level let it go.I believe that most americans will stand up to child abuse when they see it first hand.Show me proof that young children are being abused in work camps.the vids so far dont show abuse just a difference of opinion.

The problem that I see, is not children working on their family's farm; the problem is when large-scale operations hire children illegally, and coerce them into doing work they wouldn't let their own kids do.

In my opinion, the problem is really a sub-set of the federal government's refusal to enforce immigration law. I'd be willing to bet that 95% of the oppressed children are illegal aliens. And since our government tacitly approves of illegal immigrant labor by turning a blind eye, it must also turn a blind eye to oppressive child labor.

We let the desperation of illegals be manipulated by corporate interest (themselves barely making a profit in the process) because the leaders of both parties need the campaign donations, and have a darker agenda.

The real long-term plan is to avoid the negative growth rate that Europe and Japan must contend with. By allowing an influx of illegal aliens, the USA maintains economic expansion. Europe doesn't have access to Latin American population surpluses, and so must accept middle eastern immigrants instead. (Russia has been doing the same thing with immigrants from central asia into european russia).

The economy of every developed nation will collapse without a positive growth-rate, and this is part of American bankers' plan to avoid a population bust. The policy comes at the price of constructing a new peasant class.

Before hispanics, it was the italians and sourthern europeans. Before them, it was the Irish and black africans. Before them it was the Germans and Dutch, coupled with anglo indentured servant (slave) populations.

The whole dynamic is less a function of capitalism or communism than it is one of simple malthusian economics. If a society isn't growing, it is dying.

This is not a disgraceful secret. It's illegal and the government is taking steps to stop it. I don't believe the "hundreds of thousands of children" claim coming from an anti-american left wing advocacy group. The growers aren't hiring children, they're hiring the parents who then put the children in the field. The argument that they have to to make enough to live is a different and totally unrelated one. Personally, I'm against all minimum wage laws since they have been shown repeatedly to do more harm than good to the people they are designed to protect. It is fact that every time the minimum wage is increased minimum wage earners lose jobs.

This is nothing more than anti-american BS.

Originally posted by dr_strangecraft
I have rogued sorghum and other crops.

The tiny kids may be present in the field, but the amount of work they are doing is negligible. The primary benefit is that their parents can watch them, and don't have to hire a non-existent day care worker to do it for them.

I guarantee you no 5 year old is filling 5 buckets of blueberries an hour all day long. Think about it.

I appreciate the voice of reason. Star for you.

My 2 year old brings me my tools when I ask and I've always got a pile of rocks for him to move. Does that make me a criminal because I'm on the clock? Or just a multitasking dad?



We should put them all in foster homes. The parents should be detained, fined, and deported. The employers should be fined heavily and business licenses revoked. We need government monitoring systems for small family farms. Everything needs to be watched.

/sarcasm

Berries picked by kids taste great to me. I know those kids were out in the garden, with their parents... rather than "playing" Grand Theft Auto: Vice City in their basement alone.

I think there is a qualitative difference between migrant families working together in agriculture and children trafficked away to crowded, unsafe, "sweat" shops in debt bondage under duress.

Sri Oracle