The Highest Mantra in Buddhism

Originally posted by dyllels
reply to post by Zamini

 

Hey man, Gotta agree with Itisnowagain. I don't see why you feel the need to blatantly derail the thread in such a negative way.

Don't get me wrong, Zamini, I have loved reading your input throughout many threads on ATS, but you kinda just came here to show everyone that you think this thread is pointless.
At one stage of your life, maybe you were interested in mantras?

I actually share your opinion: At the end of the day, mantras are meaningless, but you have to go through that stage of your life to understand why? Is that not true?
Hell, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I haven't fully understood the intent behind mantras completely.

The youtube video of Mooji explainined that in using the "Thank you" mantra, one accepts the good and the bad equally as catalysts for growth. You understand the whole coin, rather than focusing on only one side.

I don't understand why you couldn't be pleased to come across this thread and find people undertaking a path which you are familiar with.
Instead you bashed around, trying to inject a sense of superiority?

This is the Philosophy and Metaphysics thread, and people come here to learn. So i ask you from the bottom of my heart to try and refrain from turning people away.

Many Thanks

Mantras are not meaningless. From my own not very high point of spiritual cultivation I can try and explain a bit.

It was noted that if you don't get the pronounciation right, then how can it work. Then someone else added that as long as our own language has been "perverted", let's say, throughout the ages, for various means, and it might actually be the reverse in sound and action from what a natural language would be, then how can we get the pronounciation right or even the intent of speaking right.

While these may indeed be problems, I think they should be ignored, because they are rather low-level problems, the kind that anyone can overcome with simple good intent.

The Thank You mantra is an example of good intent. You can do that without a mantra. It's something I did a lot at some point and it has helped me tremendously. I used to walk down the street and try to realize non-discriminating Oneneness. So whenever I became aware of a concept, which was quite often, whether it was a woman, or a man, or a child, or a truck, you know, the things that stick out, I would silently thank it. It does wonders, because you end up thanking all sorts of things that you would normally be against, and it both teaches you oneness and frees you from your emotional attachment to those things. No use having a reflexive emotional response if you can't do anything about the thing itself. Better to have a clear, strong mind, and one of understanding.

But back to mantra. It is the same as walking on the street and being aware of those concepts. In this conspiracy community too much has been made of sounds. While they are a direct gateway to enlightment, sound perception being clearer than visual perception, fundamentally they are no more important than images or anything else. So a first point would be that in reciting mantra, you shouldn't worry too much about pronounciation, just like you shouldn't give any mind to your emotional response to things. The words in the mantra are already there. They have been written down and handed to you. Their full effect is already in effect, so to say, it must simply be re-realized.

Now, if we believe in one another, in the fact that this conversation is happening, which it is, it doesn't matter too much how Buddhism describes the real nature of this conversation. That it is empty, illusory, real or non-real. The Buddha never meant for anyone to abandon belief in the usefulness and needfulness of day-to-day things, such as this. Buddhism is simply a human technolgy, a human science for enlightenment, and within that science he discussed even the things that are being discussed right here, strange lifeforms and other worlds, and he did it in quite a lot of detail.

So Mantras could be said to be like such conversations. Like you and I are talking using words, and they make sense, and because we realize them and respond to them they might have an effect in the world, it's the same with a mantra. Only a mantra is written by a Buddha, and there are some mantras that appeal to many Buddhas and many high beings.

Of course you can take the road of saying that from a Zen stand-point, of from the point of view of any enlightened being, all these things are the same, they're all the same fundamental nature of mind, so why bother anyway.

But, well, they bothered. These beings bothered, just like we're all bothering to talk right here right now. Many enlightened people, after reaching enlightment, keep using mantras, simply because while you can say that mantras are an illusion, like everything else, within that realm of illusion, they have meaning and power.

How can I know what kind of meaning and power, if I don't even speak sanskrit. Suffice is to say that I have cultivated spiritually enough to personally prove that some of the path is real, and I choose to believe the rest.

Put differently, I've personally physically fought with a lot of people, and I've seen people being beaten badly and I've seen many many fights. It's simply what happens in some areas of life. So who am I to deny that on higher levels there are also battles being fought, by higher beings, and perhaps these beings also communicate, and perhaps they are capable of stringing together words which have meaning and power to them, so of course they have meaning and power to someone on a lower level.

Put yet again differently, at the very least, in a bull# world where nothing is certain, you can create a karmic connection to something higher, to beings far stronger and more compassionate than you, using a language which is more pure, and as you recite it, that inner sound structure that many of you are worried about might actually become healthier. At best, what the mantra says will happen. It says he who speaks it will be riding a black unicorn on a thousand petal red lotus. Well, on the etheric plane, who is to say that is not happening?

And even beyond that, the Surangama Sutra, and the Surangama Mantra itself contain so many high high high level teachings, that learning the mantra would, even if you never cultivated yourself, it would help you have the knowledge to help others who cultivate, by simply giving it to them.

There are many other ways of explaining this, but ultimately it's simply this much: those words come from a lineage of enlightened beings just as real as you are, they represent things and call things by name, and form sound structures and image structures and name structures and all sorts of structures that I cannot know about (and I am an avid knower of poetry, yet the levels of interconnectedness in sanskrit are a bit different), and while Buddhism itself tells you that the universe is illusory, it also tells you tomorrow morning you'll wake up in that same universe, and inside that universe these words have meaning and are strongly connected to things which have meaning.

You could also try doing that with "Expecto Patronum", but I don't think any of the Harry Potter fans likely to be listening have Buddha-level hearing, so maybe the effects will be a little less.

Originally posted by Fevrier

And even beyond that, the Surangama Sutra, and the Surangama Mantra itself contain so many high high high level teachings, that learning the mantra would, even if you never cultivated yourself, it would help you have the knowledge to help others who cultivate, by simply giving it to them.

There are many other ways of explaining this, but ultimately it's simply this much: those words come from a lineage of enlightened beings just as real as you are, they represent things and call things by name, and form sound structures and image structures and name structures and all sorts of structures that I cannot know about (and I am an avid knower of poetry, yet the levels of interconnectedness in sanskrit are a bit different), and while Buddhism itself tells you that the universe is illusory, it also tells you tomorrow morning you'll wake up in that same universe, and inside that universe these words have meaning and are strongly connected to things which have meaning.

Oh wow, you explained that really well. Thank you.
The part above was quite an eye opener to me. I've printed out the first link, and I'm definitely going to spend some time running through the ideas and concepts tonight.

Just a quick question: Do you think that when someone understands a mantra fully, they arrive at the exact same place as another, who has also understood the mantra completely? In other words, does your personal life or outlook play any part in how much that specific mantra resonates with you? You think that there will always be a further step of comprehension which dispels any personal attachment to the mantra?

I'm sorry if that was confusing. It is quite hard to explain what I mean

Originally posted by dyllels

Originally posted by Fevrier

And even beyond that, the Surangama Sutra, and the Surangama Mantra itself contain so many high high high level teachings, that learning the mantra would, even if you never cultivated yourself, it would help you have the knowledge to help others who cultivate, by simply giving it to them.

There are many other ways of explaining this, but ultimately it's simply this much: those words come from a lineage of enlightened beings just as real as you are, they represent things and call things by name, and form sound structures and image structures and name structures and all sorts of structures that I cannot know about (and I am an avid knower of poetry, yet the levels of interconnectedness in sanskrit are a bit different), and while Buddhism itself tells you that the universe is illusory, it also tells you tomorrow morning you'll wake up in that same universe, and inside that universe these words have meaning and are strongly connected to things which have meaning.

Oh wow, you explained that really well. Thank you.
The part above was quite an eye opener to me. I've printed out the first link, and I'm definitely going to spend some time running through the ideas and concepts tonight.

Just a quick question: Do you think that when someone understands a mantra fully, they arrive at the exact same place as another, who has also understood the mantra completely? In other words, does your personal life or outlook play any part in how much that specific mantra resonates with you? You think that there will always be a further step of comprehension which dispels any personal attachment to the mantra?

I'm sorry if that was confusing. It is quite hard to explain what I mean

Well, a mantra can't be understood unto itself, and it can't be understood unto you.

But before we can understand that, let's try and see what a mantra is made up of.

There's names. These are the names, most often, of fully enlightened beings. Buddhas. To reach full, complete enlightenment, you must not only wake up to the fundamental nature, but you must fully cultivate the three bodies (which are also shown in Christianity for example, the Holy Trinity). You can read a full discussion of this here

www.meditationexpert.com...

but what cultivating the three bodies and reaching perfect wisdom means is that you've not only seen through illusion and into the fundamental nature, but you've removed all negative karmic ties, all hindrances, all the forms that could ever hold you back or down. You have in fact mastered all the functions of this universe, through those three bodies.

So you could say that a Buddha is one with the entire universe, and has also gone beyond it, into that one thing, that oneness which is the source of all. But what remains behind? It's the story. This beautiful story of the fearless victory and compassion. And the name. While you could say, well, what does a name matter, I say, why wouldn't it matter. It's the name of the being, that inside this universe, achieved full and perfect liberation, so how could that name not matter inside this universe.

Therefore, in a way, a mantra that names all these names, ties them together in ways who knows how perfect, is it not speaking of that fearless victory, and bringing it closer to whoever you are, wherever you are, whenever you are. Is it not speaking of both the fearless victory inside this universe, and the oneness source it has gone into.

So that's one thing. In this sense, there is no understanding, but simply victory. In the same way that saying "factory farmed chicken" refers to the horrible and, on this planet, all-pervasive habit of breeding millions of chickens inside tiny rooms, so saying that phrase relates to that fact and that act and all its karmic meanings - for how could it not, without these millions of chickens and their miserable lives and deaths, the phrase itself couldn't and wouldn't exist - in the same way saying the names of the Buddhas and of places eons away in time and who knows how distant in space, in the ways that it was intended to be said, also carries a karmic meaning and power. That in itself cannot be understood, it simply is. Can you fully understand the death of a billion chickens? I think not, and that is far smaller than some of the things reffered to by some mantras.

The other thing, the other part, refers to wisdom. Buddhism, and Zen, have as their purpose to bring about the realization that the Fundamental Nature of all things is mind. Not your mind, not my mind, not a mind which can be defines, but - Mind. This cannot be known with words, that is why I said it has to be Realized. If it could simply be intellectually understood, that would be very easy, and we'd be living in a much simpler, much gentler universe.

No, it has to be Realized, and that's why all these enlightened beings throughout the ages have perfected various means of trying to pass down wisdom. In Islam, for example, they call becoming enlightened Seeing the Face of God. That is, they say all you have ever seen, inside or outside yourself, is nothing but the face of God. This of course, was originally intended to cause a certain amount of awe and respect. Every sage tried to pass down knowledge in the way they feel it will be picked up most easily by the people of that time and place. In Islam their prophet felt like this awe and respect was needed. In Christianity, it's a religion based very much on form, that's why very few Christians become enlightened, though it's not impossible. But the thing is, whether you call it God or Mind or Oneness, the idea is really the same. Saying that all you ever see is God's Face or saying the Fundamental Nature and saying Oneness, these are ultimately the same thing, but they have different nuances and those nuances affect people who aren't enlightened. In Buddhism it's all about Buddha nature, Fundamental Nature, and the idea that it's in all things.

That's why I wasn't very impressed with the earlier story of a Zen master burning a Buddha statue.

But returning to you, a mantra like the Surangama also contains various wisdom teaching, which are meant to give you insight into the Fundamental Nature, and eventually awaken. Maybe in this life, maybe in another. That's another thing, saying a mantra many times create a karmic connection to it, which makes it a lot easier to come accross these teachings in another life.

I just discovered the mantra last night. I've known about the Surangama sutra for close to a year, but I never read the mantra. A Buddhist might say I didn't have enough merit to read it. In the first link I gave you, that Zen master says as much, that many people will come accross it but not recognize it for what it is.

So last night I debated whether or not I should post it here, knowing most people would be negative about it, but I decided to post it and then stick around to debate.

I cannot explain here the various ways in which emptiness teachings, mind-only teachings, wisdom teachings, meditation-concentration teachings, can help you awaken. Suffice is to say, they're in there, and in other mantras and sutras.

But I'll try and answer your questions. Personal attachment to something good isn't bad. If you do someday become enlightened, what's there to do. I mean look at it, it's a huge universe with lots of things to do in it, and that's what you'd be doing - good things. But you wouldn't be "attached" to them, because someone enlightened cannot be attached. Until that day however, becoming attached to high wisdom should be the least of your worries. But yes, the ultimate step of comprehension would dispel personal attachment to the mantra, although I'm not sure it would dispel its usefulness.

As for your personal life and outlook, think of them as many handful of seeds. These seeds can be either the seeds of fearless, victorious wisdom, or they can be the seeds of various other things.

If you become enlightened, and you have a wife, she won't suddenly dissapear. Neither would your dog, or your neighbours, or this government. But the seeds of all these things would be much easier for you to transform into something good, into that fearless victory. And you wouldn't think of it as "your life" anymore. As in, you would see far more seeds needing to be turned, much farther away, and you wouldn't discriminate between yours and mine and his, it would all seem equally in need of transformation. It doesn't mean you'd abandon your wife and your friends, but that all doubts, all murkiness, all fear, they would vanish. Some things would still go wrong, but enlightment is not an excuse to get meditate on top of a mountain, but the ultimate nature of self and of positive change.

The only way of truly transforming all these karmic seeds, is of course that of reaching this ultimate nature. But that is damn hard, and requires very high wisdom, experience and merit.

So in the meantime, in your personal life, the connection to a powerful mantra can bring merit, it can bring an opening up of wisdom, who knows what it can bring. I do not know. But if a mantra is a connection to such supreme, compassionate victory, then the way I see it is, even if caught within time and space and ignorance, without much personal power, if you pass a beggar and you have no way of helping him, of liberating him from his condition, but the fact that you had the luck and merit of learning a powerful mantra can help you, with the silent uttering of a few words, to als connect that moment, that place, that beggar, to the fearless victory of the mantra, to give him some karmic connection to it, some lightening of his place, some protection or maybe sweetness, who knows how to call it, then why not do it?

So why is it a mantra can't be understood unto itself? It's just words. Those words have no self-meaning, they are just a form of the Fundamental Nature. That is the meaning of the universe being illusory, in Buddhist thought. It does not have self-existence, it is only a form of the fundamental nature of Mind, or God, or whatever you want to call it. But these words do have co-meaning, they have meaning inside the universe, that is, together with the many many other things with which they are karmically connected, they form a very powerful meaning inside the universe.

Why can't the mantra be understood unto you? The same reason, you are also Fundamental Nature, Buddha Nature. But just as before, the wisdom and the karmic connections inside the mantra can help you within the existence real of the universe, and they can help you awaken to the Fundamental Nature.

So you ask can personal attachment to it be dispelled. I already said yes. Because a mantra is like a match. It burns, it produces a flame, and it dissapears. In the sense that it being just an aspect of the Fundamental Nature, once it has produced the flame it needed to produce for you, if that day ever comes, sure, it could dissapear. Run its course. But the question is, if that day ever comes, and you choose to remain in this universe, is it not useful for producing more flames. To that only you can give the answer, if you ever get there, and that's why the Buddha had the habit of saying you have to practice yourself, in order to prove him right or wrong.

Here's the actual Surangama Mantra, linked here directly to its page within the Sutra. Yeah, it's a long mantra.

www.cttbusa.org...

And here's what's being said about the mantra on the next page

"Ananda, this cluster of light atop the crown of the Buddha’s head, the secret gatha, Syi Dan Dwo Bwo Da La, with its subtle, The Shurangama Sutra 191 wonderful divisions and phrases, gives birth to all the Buddhas of the ten directions. Because the Thus Come Ones of the ten directions use this mantra-heart, they realize unsurpassed, proper, and all-pervading knowledge and enlightenment. 6:115

”Because the Thus Come Ones of the ten directions take up this mantra-heart, they subdue all demons and control all adherents of outside ways. 6:116

”Because the Thus Come Ones of the ten directions avail themselves of this mantra-heart, they sit upon jeweled lotus-flowers and respond throughout countries as numerous as motes of dust. 6:117

”Because the Thus Come Ones of the ten directions embody this mantra-heart, they turn the great dharma wheel in lands as numerous as fine motes of dust. 6:117

”Because the Thus Come Ones of the ten directions hold this mantra-heart, they are able to go throughout the ten directions to rub beings on the crowns of their heads and bestow predictions upon them. Also, anyone in the ten directions who has not yet realized the fruition, can receive a Buddha’s prediction. 6:117

”Because the Thus Come Ones of the ten directions are based in this mantra-heart, they can go throughout the ten directions to rescue beings from such sufferings as being in the hells, being hungry ghosts, being animals, or being blind, deaf, or mute, as well as from the suffering of being together with those one hates, from the suffering of being apart from those one loves, from the suffering of not obtaining what one seeks, and from the raging blaze of the five skandhas. They liberate beings from both large and small accidents. In response to their recitation, difficulty with thieves, difficulty with armies, difficulty with the law, difficulty with imprisonment, difficulty with wind, fire, and water, and difficulty with hunger, thirst, and impoverishment are all eradicated. 6:118

”Because the Thus Come Ones of the ten directions are in accord with this mantra-heart, they can serve good and wise advisors throughout the ten directions. In the four aspects of awesome deportment, they make wish-fulfilling offerings. In the assemblies of as many Thus Come Ones as there are sands in the Ganges, they are considered to be great Dharma Princes. 6:120

”Because the Thus Come Ones of the ten directions practice this mantra-heart, they can gather in and teach their relatives in the ten directions. Causing those of the Small Vehicle not to be frightened when they hear the secret treasury. 6:120

”Because the Thus Come Ones of the ten directions recite this mantra-heart, they realize unsurpassed enlightenment while sitting beneath the Bodhi tree, and they enter Parinirvana. 6:121

”Because the Thus Come Ones of the ten directions transmit this mantra-heart, those to whom they have bequeathed the Buddhadharma can, after their Nirvana, dwell in it completely and uphold it. Being strict and pure about the precepts and rules, they can all obtain purity. 6:121

”If I were to explain this mantra, Bwo Da La, of the cluster of light atop the crown of the Buddha’s head from morning till night in an unceasing sound, without ever repeating any syllable or phrase, I could go on for as many kalpas as there are sands in the Ganges and still never finish. 6:122

”I also will tell you that this mantra is called ‘The crown of the Thus Come One.’ 6:123

”All of you with something left to study who have not yet put an end to the cycle of rebirth and yet have brought forth sincere resolve to become Arhats, will find it impossible to sit in a Bodhimanda and be far removed in body and mind from all demonic deeds if you do not hold this Mantra. 6:123

”Ananda, let any living being of any country in any world copy out this mantra in writing on materials native to his region, such as birch bark, pattra, plain paper, or white cotton cloth, and store it in a pouch containing incense. If that person wears the pouch on his body, or if he keeps a copy in his home, then you should know that even if he understands so little that he cannot recite it from memory, he will not be harmed by any poison during his entire life. 6:124

”Ananda, I will now tell you more about how this mantra can rescue and protect the world, help people obtain great fearlessness, and bring to accomplishment living beings’ transcendental wisdom. 6:125

”You should know that, after my extinction, if there are beings in the Dharma-ending Age who can recite the mantra themselves or teach others to recite it, such people who recite and uphold it cannot be burned by fire, cannot be drowned by water, and cannot be harmed by mild or potent poisons. 6:125

”And so it is in every other case, such that they cannot be possessed by any evil mantra or any heavenly dragon, ghost, or spirit, or by any essence, weird creature, or demonic ghost. These people’s minds will attain proper reception, so that any spell, any paralyzing sorcery, any poison or poisoning gold, any poisoning silver, any plant, tree, insect, or snake, and any of a myriad kinds of poisonous vapors will turn into sweet dew when it enters their mouths. 6:126

”No evil stars, and no ghost or spirit that harbors malice in its heart and that poisons people can work its evil on these people. Vinayaka as well as all the evil ghost kings and their retinues will be led by deep kindness to always guard and protect them. 6:128

”Ananda, you should know that eighty-four thousand nayutas of Ganges’ sands of kotis of Vajra Treasury-King Bodhisattvas and their descendants, each with vajra multitudes as retinue, are ever in attendance, day and night, upon this mantra. 6:129

”If living beings whose minds are scattered and who have no samadhi remember and recite the mantra, the vajra kings will always surround them. Therefore, good men, that is even more true for those who are decisively resolved upon Bodhi. All the Vajra Treasury-King Bodhisattvas will regard them attentively and secretly hasten the opening of their spiritual consciousness. 6:130

But let's forget about this for a second. My favorite things are the Heart Sutra and the Zen Song of Freedom, or Shodoka.

kr.buddhism.org...

www.thezensite.com...

The Heart Sutra is extremely short, and it is beautiful. It condenses great amounts of wisdom in one page, and it does so with imagery that anyone can try and directly understand, at least anyone with a modern interest in science and art.

The Song of Freedom is a bit longer, but it is so humanistic in its portrayal of wisdom and freedom and courage as being one, being like a lion, and the understanding of its verses grows as you grow.

Originally posted by Zamini
reply to post by AnotherYOU

 

Let these people have their fun. They want to be special, have a nice title, be compassionate and chant super secret(not so) mantra's.

Yes, let these insignificant FOOLS have their little fun... With their little Top Secret mantras! Hahaha... They think they are top secret. I heard them say so... They talk about it all the time, about how Top Secret their silly little mantras are. I'm glad you picked up on that, too. And the fact that they wanna be special, pshh!! Oh, they loooove being special! It's all their in it for. It's like a drug to them... Fiends! All they're doing is spreading evil and ignorance and negativity...not like us! But no matter, they will never amount to our wisdom Muahahahaha!

Oh wait... Nobody said it was top secret or that they were special or wanted to be special, and these are all just some peaceful people who aren't hurting anyone...??? Gosh, that sure makes "me" feel like a blowhard whos full of hot air that just annoys everybody by entering forums designated for the discussion of topics "I'm" clearly not a fan of.

And all these people, if they truly are "wrong", could just be going through a stage and this could be a heck of a lot better than the stage they came from... Oh boy, now "I" have gone and made "myself" look like the biggest, most ignorant moron on this entire site and "I" should do the right thing and delete "my" account and never return here again. But unfortunately, "my" ego is so inflated that "I'm" under the delusion that this site actually benefits from "my" presence, so until "I" grow up, more civilized members will be forced to deal with "my" weak sensibilities and cynical attitude towards everything that isn't exactly what "I" happen to believe in at this particular time or "stage" in "my" life.

Thank you for a good post.

if you see hunger and pain!
then you see karma and attachment.
and if that is all You see.
then You are attached to it..
do what You can to help them.
But Dont hate or pity others for the suffering.
or you will just get lost.
pray for them. sent them both
loving kindness and compassion.
the one who suffers and the won who walks by.
they both need it.
the one who walks by will more than likely.
suffer like the one they walk by in there next life.
the one who suffers will have a very good life in there
next incarnation.

Mantras?
just some thing to help you clear and focus the mind.
like mediation.

reply to post by blazenresearcher

I'm sorry but you are hilarious! Are you doing that on purpose or is it not intended! Either way!

I’m not doing it on purpose. You are unable to admit your feelings of anger and hostility towards me because you think you are too ‘enlightened’ to have such feelings, so you pretend I'm hilarious instead. The truth is, you are laughing through gritted teeth and would dearly love to see me get what you think I deserve.

But my question is serious. Can you pronounce ‘Surangama’? For that matter, can you even pronounce the S in ’Surangama’? It is neither an S nor a SH sound but something that falls in the middle, a kind of lisp. Did you know that? And if you can’t even pronounce the name of this moth--eaten old mantra right, how can you possibly chant it correctly?

That is, of course, if you think the Surangama Sutra is a chant. In fact it is a Buddhist text intended to be read, not chanted. Treating it as some sort of magic formula is about as spiritually enlightened as buying a St. Christopher medal that’s been ‘blessed by the pope’ or tossing spilled salt over your shoulder to keep bad luck away.

reply to post by Astyanax


Hey buddy, why so bitter?

Who the # said anything about chanting here...

Moth-eaten old mantra.

Also interesting that you interchangeably confuse mantras and sutras in your attempt to show others which one should be read and which one shouldn't be chanted, or something.

Of course sutras are read, dummy, who exactly is gonna chant a 10 chapter sutra?

And just for fun. I've heart a lot of people mention enlightment on this thread, and I bet none of you know what it actually is.

So you, sutra chanting dude, what exactly does it mean to be enlightened. And don't give me some lip service about how it can't be defined, because that just means you don't know what you're talking about.

reply to post by Fevrier


Don't worry about them.
It's ok, we know we are special.
Let them stay insignificant.

Namaste.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by Fevrier

 

Don't worry about them.
It's ok, we know we are special.
Let them stay insignificant.

Namaste.

edit on 11-8-2011 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

It has nothing to do with being special.

I simply want to establish the reality of enlightment so that it is clear for everyone here and at least we'll know what we're talking about.

reply to post by Fevrier


It is impossible to make people understand who just want to push your buttons. Enlightenment will be known when it is known and not until. You can not cure their ignorance.
Do you consider yourself to be enlightened?

No, I am not, and enlightenment has to be realized in order to be actually enlightened, but until that time, we can all define it and know what it is.

reply to post by Fevrier
[mor


How would it be possible for a blind man to describe red to another blind man and for them to understand it?
Indeed it has to be realized first. If it is not known, how can it be described?

reply to post by Fevrier

The confusion is the OP’s, not mine. Read the thread title.

Real Buddhism is serious business, but this Pure Land stuff is pure wish-fulfilling Disneyland tripe.

reply to post by Fevrier

So you, sutra chanting dude, what exactly does it mean to be enlightened.

You mean me, do you? Very well: enlightenment is the suppression of instinct and perception through sensory deprivation, creating a pathological condition within the brain that gives rise to hallucinations of comprehension, universal awareness and connexion, compassion for all beings, etc. It is as habit-forming as any other video game.

Originally posted by 1littlewolf
Are not words just words? What makes these words any more powerful than any others? You don't even know what they mean. You could chant 'Expecto Patronum' over and over again and it would have the same effect. Its not what comes out of your mouth, but what happens in your mind....

Hello.

Just a thought, but each word consists of tones, as does chanting. Could it not be possible that the varying frequency range of the human voice is capable of transmitting information on more than just an audible basis? Because let's face it - sound is the displacement of air particles, this is transmitted to our ears, which operate by detecting minute changes in the environment.

It's been proven that different frequencies can affect us in many ways, and in some cases can 'guide' our brains through different states of perception.

web-us.com...

The most amazing thing is, is that our bodies are the resonator, the instrument - we sometimes forget this. Our very breath and lungs are capable of changing the world. The right word or song to someone can inspire millions. A song on paper is almost useless. A song is only a song when sung.

Also our range of hearing is limited, outside that range there are a million unheard frequencies. Consider that.

So Buddhism is both very serious condition and a pathological condition. By the use of words like pathological and hallucination, you of course refer to a dualist condition of things, that is not contradicted just by buddhism.

But I appreciate your pragmatism. Also being a pragmatic man, I can assure you that all my pragmatic endeavours in the field of military action and self defense, from fighting to knife fighting to shooting, have improved dramatically along with my pathological condition of advancing samadhi and realization.

So then, in this dualist universe, taking compassion as a pathological condition which is subsumed to randomness just like all other things, and thefore may dissapear, ask yourself - when you meet someone who does everything that is pragmatically dangerous far better than you do, as in, miles and miles and miles better, do you wish for compassion to be a universal trait or a fragile pathological condition?

Also, you can look up both neurological studies and studies of so called "powers", mostly in the area of fire and temperature related abilities, done by qualified scientists and universities, proving that the results of meditation are not pathological, but empirically real even within dualist perception.

I've never seen supramundane side-effects happening with video games. Have you?

No? Then maybe you're just being pathologically ignorant.