HELP....Just read the SECRET BOOK OF JOHN...Those who have and understand pls HELP

reply to post by bogomil


Only proof youll get is when its to late.

Since dates are always in question.......Here we go

The numbers on the left are for an estimated range of dating.

30-60 Passion Narrative
40-80 Lost Sayings Gospel Q
50-60 1 Thessalonians
50-60 Philippians
50-60 Galatians
50-60 1 Corinthians
50-60 2 Corinthians
50-60 Romans
50-60 Philemon
50-80 Colossians
50-90 Signs Gospel
50-95 Book of Hebrews
50-120 Didache
50-140 Gospel of Thomas
50-140 Oxyrhynchus 1224 Gospel
50-200 Sophia of Jesus Christ
65-80 Gospel of Mark
70-100 Epistle of James
70-120 Egerton Gospel
70-160 Gospel of Peter
70-160 Secret Mark
70-200 Fayyum Fragment
70-200 Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs
73-200 Mara Bar Serapion
80-100 2 Thessalonians
80-100 Ephesians
80-100 Gospel of Matthew
80-110 1 Peter
80-120 Epistle of Barnabas
80-130 Gospel of Luke
80-130 Acts of the Apostles
80-140 1 Clement
80-150 Gospel of the Egyptians
80-150 Gospel of the Hebrews
80-250 Christian Sibyllines
90-95 Apocalypse of John
90-120 Gospel of John
90-120 1 John
90-120 2 John
90-120 3 John
90-120 Epistle of Jude
93 Flavius Josephus
100-150 1 Timothy
100-150 2 Timothy
100-150 Titus
100-150 Apocalypse of Peter
100-150 Secret Book of James
100-150 Preaching of Peter
100-160 Gospel of the Ebionites
100-160 Gospel of the Nazoreans
100-160 Shepherd of Hermas
100-160 2 Peter
100-200 Odes of Solomon
101-220 Book of Elchasai
105-115 Ignatius of Antioch
110-140 Polycarp to the Philippians
110-140 Papias
110-160 Oxyrhynchus 840 Gospel
110-160 Traditions of Matthias
111-112 Pliny the Younger
115 Suetonius
115 Tacitus
120-130 Quadratus of Athens
120-130 Apology of Aristides
120-140 Basilides
120-140 Naassene Fragment
120-160 Valentinus
120-180 Apocryphon of John
120-180 Gospel of Mary
120-180 Dialogue of the Savior
120-180 Gospel of the Savior
120-180 2nd Apocalypse of James
120-180 Trimorphic Protennoia
130-140 Marcion
130-150 Aristo of Pella
130-160 Epiphanes On Righteousness
130-160 Ophite Diagrams
130-160 2 Clement
130-170 Gospel of Judas
130-200 Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus
140-150 Epistula Apostolorum
140-160 Ptolemy
140-160 Isidore
140-170 Fronto
140-170 Infancy Gospel of James
140-170 Infancy Gospel of Thomas
140-180 Gospel of Truth
150-160 Martyrdom of Polycarp
150-160 Justin Martyr
150-180 Excerpts of Theodotus
150-180 Heracleon
150-200 Ascension of Isaiah
150-200 Acts of Peter
150-200 Acts of John
150-200 Acts of Paul
150-200 Acts of Andrew
150-225 Acts of Peter and the Twelve
150-225 Book of Thomas the Contender
150-250 Fifth and Sixth Books of Esra
150-300 Authoritative Teaching
150-300 Coptic Apocalypse of Paul
150-300 Discourse on the Eighth and Ninth
150-300 Melchizedek
150-400 Acts of Pilate
150-400 Anti-Marcionite Prologues
160-170 Tatian's Address to the Greeks
160-180 Claudius Apollinaris
160-180 Apelles
160-180 Julius Cassianus
160-250 Octavius of Minucius Felix
161-180 Acts of Carpus
165-175 Melito of Sardis
165-175 Hegesippus
165-175 Dionysius of Corinth
165-175 Lucian of Samosata
167 Marcus Aurelius
170-175 Diatessaron
170-200 Dura-Europos Gospel Harmony
170-200 Muratorian Canon
170-200 Treatise on the Resurrection
170-220 Letter of Peter to Philip
175-180 Athenagoras of Athens
175-185 Irenaeus of Lyons
175-185 Rhodon
175-185 Theophilus of Caesarea
175-190 Galen
178 Celsus
178 Letter from Vienna and Lyons
180 Passion of the Scillitan Martyrs
180-185 Theophilus of Antioch
180-185 Acts of Apollonius
180-220 Bardesanes
180-220 Kerygmata Petrou
180-230 Hippolytus of Rome
180-250 1st Apocalypse of James
180-250 Gospel of Philip
182-202 Clement of Alexandria
185-195 Maximus of Jerusalem
185-195 Polycrates of Ephesus
188-217 Talmud
189-199 Victor I
190-210 Pantaenus
193 Anonymous Anti-Montanist
193-216 Inscription of Abercius
197-220 Tertullian
200-210 Serapion of Antioch
200-210 Apollonius
200-220 Caius
200-220 Philostratus
200-225 Acts of Thomas
200-250 Didascalia
200-250 Books of Jeu
200-300 Pistis Sophia
200-300 Coptic Apocalypse of Peter
203 Acts of Perpetua and Felicitas
203-250 Origen

Which most are from 1st and 2nd centuary. So its kinda hard to say they have no prudent info based offof dates alone. I would also like to add, Didn't GOD allow the Serpent into the Garden? How do we truely know this is not the same thing? Please do not think I am judgeing anyone as wrong because I am not. But please stop judgeing other's for searching for the truth. We are told by GOD, he is not of lie's. He also states no peace can be found from a lie. How peacefull has it been? All I wish to do is get to the truth.

LOTZA LUV

reply to post by milkyway12

Itwanna , the Catholic church is one of the Whores of Babylon.

Itta Bena is a town in Mississippi, but then you already knew that right? Actually, according to the Book of Mormon it is the Whore of Babylon, and I agree pretty much, though that is a vulgar way to put it when there are Catholics who know no better yet.

But if that is your genuine opinion why were you referencing them so hard in your argument? "Church Fathers"

Their Etiquette is Blasphemy.

This is my point exactly. However, you based your whole argument on just that etiquette. Is this really your answer to the reply I spent so long typing?

This reminds me of a day when a female coworker in MS told me that the Catholics worshiped the devil. I chuckled and asked her where she heard that.

"From my minister" she replied.

"What church ya go to?" I asked.

"Baptist" (Southern) was the response.

I left her alone on that issue, and we remained friends till my job ended.

Thanks for the response

reply to post by bogomil

Don't ascribe to much value to contemporary gnostic-hybrid religions/systems. Much is just superficial adaptions of original gnosticism.

Thanks for your concern, but when I do go to church I go to Unity Church - non denominational. In beliefs, I believe in Christ, but I am more in line with Eastern teachings. Buddhism has some good philosophies, but Taoism seems to fit the best for me. When I say that I believe in Christ, that does not mean I believe he died on the cross to save us from our sins. He never said that, or if he did it was edited from the Bible. The editors and their successors have shown themselves to be crooked, sadistic, cruel and self serving in their actions time and time again, therefore for me their editing job cannot be trusted. I will not be willingly fooled, but religion/spirituality has to be a personal thing or it cannot work, therefore I try hard not to force anyone to believe what I believe in this respect. But I will debate the willing.

I heard you say earlier in the thread that you had spent 45 years researching religious matters, I have only spent 35 myself but have had the strict moral code of my drill sergeant father (Marine Corps) who later went on to the State Police to guide me in this search. Didn't really get a childhood, ya know.

I really do appreciate the concern, but I think we are pretty much on the same page here. No Worries!

reply to post by milkyway12


Nice cut and paste job. You could have just sent along the link you know. I would have read it.

However this is not a history lesson, this is a list of facts and figures and dates. Their are no motivations revealed, no causality discussed, no reasons even mentioned. Also I fail to see the significance of all this. Is this meant to prove that some books are considered to actually be written by the actual apostles? Based on whose opinion? Care to take a wild guess? The Catholics of the Ecumenical Councils, because they murdered everyone who disagreed.

Genocide! Do you get my point? Now you want me again to trust their opinion? You trust them if you feel good about it, but don't wait for me.

And anyway you didn't even name your source. Is this Wikipedia? Is this the Vatican? The Boys Club of America? I think you should review the rules for posting, and post honorably.

reply to post by milkyway12

Do you not think if God wanted other books in the Bible he could have gotten the books in the Bible?

If you are so threatened by our discussing this why do you keep coming back? Is it that important that we agree with you and stop looking at the Apocrypha? Why? How are you hurt by it?

I would say you are pointlessly wasting your effort and energy. We haven't told you what you should believe, why must you tell us what to believe? We are having a discussion about what we have found, if it bothers you this much and gets you that worked up why don't you forget about it and just go on with you life? Many people look at this stuff everyday, why have you singled us out for conversion?

reply to post by milkyway12

Only proof youll get is when its to late.

Ah there it is. (I knew it would come!) A ticket on the next bus to hell!

reply to post by Ittabena


Im not threatened at all by the conversation , i was simply saying do you doubt God could put Books in the bible if HE wanted them there? Its that simple. My faith is stead fast and will not change.

However , i gave you the reasoning behind the development of the Bible , yet you shurg it off. The old testament is a nice story. The Gosple however are your main priority , as it applies to you the new testament.

The Catholic church worships a Goddes , the Virgin Mary gets you no where. The Virgin Mary here on Earth is a Fallen Angel. I believe the Gods people Worship exist , but arnt Gods but fallen angels decieving them.

Mormons are in trouble and the Catholics are in trouble.

Ah there it is. (I knew it would come!) A ticket on the next bus to hell!

It really is a Ticket on the next bus to hell. I mean its that simple. There is no wide path , the bible tells you the Path to heaven is Narrow. You have one path .. one way.

I just had the time to go back and read the rest of your comments. Yeah , no point in carrying on a conversation with you as you dont believe in our only source to God. So how we can even speak if you disclaim the book? We cant. You are part of the great falling away. Look at the world now. The Bible tells you its going to get worse .. much worse , but you dont even believe God can create a simple book.

The Manuscrips used before the Church ... was put in the bible and i already posted all of thes accounts. Explaining the Bible. Isnt much more i can do if you decline physical proof of the Bible being used before ... the bible was even created.

Its Easier to copy and paste things when needed as you dont have a choice but to read it or ignore it and if you ignore it , i just simply dont reply. No reason for me to type something that cant be typed much better.


Thousands of early Christian writings and lexionaries (first and second century) cite verses from the New Testament. In fact, it is nearly possible to put together the entire New Testament just from early Christian writings. For example, the Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians (dated 95 A.D.) cites verses from the Gospels, Acts, Romans, 1 Corinthians, Ephesians, Titus, Hebrews, and 1 Peter. The letters of Ignatius (dated 115 A.D.) were written to several churches in Asia Minor and cites verses from Matthew, John, Romans, 1 & 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, 1 & 2 Timothy and Titus. These letters indicate that the entire New Testament was written in the first century A.D. In addition, there is internal evidence for a first century date for the writing of the New Testament. The book of Acts ends abruptly with Paul in prison, awaiting trial (Acts 28:30-31 (1)). It is likely that Luke wrote Acts during this time, before Paul finally appeared before Nero. This would be about 62-63 A.D., meaning that Acts and Luke were written within thirty years of ministry and death of Jesus. Another internal evidence is that there is no mention of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Although Matthew, Mark and Luke record Jesus' prophecy that the temple and city would be destroyed within that generation (Matthew 24:1-2 (2),Mark 13:1-2 (3), Luke 21:5-9,20-24,32(4)), no New Testament book refers to this event as having happened. If they had been written after 70 A.D., it is likely that letters written after 70 A.D. would have mentioned the fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy. As stated by Nelson Glueck, former president of the Jewish Theological Seminary in the Hebrew Union College in Cincinnati, and renowned Jewish archaeologist, "In my opinion, every book of the New Testament was written between the forties and eighties of the first century A.D."

Originally posted by milkyway12
reply to post by bogomil

 

Only proof youll get is when its to late.

That's a situation describing ALL religionists, except that one group, which possible got it right.

And according to South Park (using reasoning just as valid as yours) it is the MORMONS, who have nothing to worry about.

Or if the authentic gnostics were right (in my opinion, they are at least less wrong), YOU are the one, who to late discover, that the OT character Jahveh actually is the devil.

So you see, you have just extended your circle-argument to cover a bigger area, from 'god' writing (or editing) the bible to a prophecy about a 'to late' situation.

reply to post by Ittabena


Not as valued from an academic perspective concerning the 'truth' of your syncretistic religious attitude, but from such syncretism being non-authoritarian, you and I are indeed on the same page. It doesn't even matter, that I'm not a 'believer' as such.

My last post to you on hijacked gnosticism though, has a history which may be relevant both to this thread, to you and to syncretism in general.

The early gnostics were great 'speculators'. Not in the sense of wildly and out-of-control fantasizing, but more as building systematic scenarios based on their 'direct experience' approach to religion, cosmogony and cosmology. A great deal of 'science of mind' is (like in buddhism, taoism etc) implied, but unlike 'hard' science which can rely on deductive logic for results, the 'soft' sciences (where I for the duration will include 'science of mind') mainly have to rely on inductive reasoning. Hence much syncretism, and a true, functional syncretism needs to be inclusive, rather than exclusive.

The various monopoly-seeking christianities used that inclusiveness to infiltrate gnosticsm, so eventually the Jesus-theology was incorporated into gnosticism (just as there's always room for another 'god' in many asian systems) and the invasive christianities could then use this as the 'politically correct' excuse of heresy, which technically gave them the option of slaughtering gnostics.

Quote: ["I heard you say earlier in the thread that you had spent 45 years researching religious matters,"]

Existential questions to be more exact. I only bring up this, when I'm met with the arrogance of somebody who has read a handful of pages on a subject, and then tell opposition to 'go home and do more research'.

(Hypothetically I could still be a moron after 45 years of 'research', and in any case an 'authority argument' isn't of much value.)

Originally posted by milkyway12

Only proof youll get is when its to late.

My friend GOD judges you're heart. Not what church you goto.
I do put my full trust in GOD.
Mankind have manipulted the bible for a powerhold.
No one isnt saying there is truth in there.
But it does make me wonder why the great whore made such a mad dash
effort to burn everything else.

If we know that the catholic system is the great whore. Why would we just
blindly except the one book she has complete controll over. I believe in Jesus.
Not that he is apart of the GOD head but that he was GOD's first born son of all creation.

As long as I keep my heart pure and follow GODS will I may not recieve the 2nd death.

LOTZA LUV

This is part of the following away. Just one of the things to decieve the elect. The Bible warns you about all of this.

reply to post by milkyway12


Have you ever thought it could be the warning to come out of the great Harlot?
You cant claim not to be apart of her when you still hold her doctorine of lies.
Her view points come from the bible ie pauline doctorine. She will quote him more
then the living word JESUS.

Which pauline doctorine also became the blue print of all christian denominations.
This doctorine has put forth nothing but confusion. Which GOD clearly tells us he is not
the author of. Dont get me wrong I listen to Jesus and GOD alone.
Which also tells me I have no right to judge you. Judgement is theirs and theirs alone.

I keep my commandments. Love GOD with all you're heart, mind and soul.
Love you're enemys, Love all as if they were he. So you really cant judge me based on the
fact that I reject what the harlot has deamed as doctornal truths.

So to me there is a snake once again in eden. Will we resist the temptation this time.
Or will we fall for it again. You also cant get to the truth unless you have the whole picture.
Which actualy means you need to look at the gnostics as well to get to that point.

I do have great respect for you in you're faith alone aproach.
I also do hear you're heartfelt warnings.
But to me this is an important part of my spiritual journey.
Like you have said test these things to know thatthey are true.
Which is exactly what I am doing.
Testing all, which GOD and Jesus said his true followers would do.

LOTZA LUV

Originally posted by milkyway12
This is part of the following away. Just one of the things to decieve the elect. The Bible warns you about all of this.

For my sake, you can be as 'elect' as you like.

This is part of the contemporary political invention called egalitarian, liberal, secular democracy. People can even be mad as hatters, if they don't constitute any danger.

But there is this small disadvantage about being 'elect', that it leads some of the 'elects' to believe, that they have special privileges, e.g. like interfering with other peoples' lives.

If this interference is done inside parliamentary procedures, it's a worst just a lot of rhetoric and oration, usually being met with other forms of verbal martial arts.

If it's outside parliamentary procedures, it's criminal.

I doubt, that you are a criminal, but coming to a public forum, where there will be oppositional verbal martial art at play, and feeling your faith threatened from it, rather suggests a need of spiritual counseling, than maybe nurturing the impossible hope, that anyone 'wins' an internet debate or can make determined opposition silent.

Or are you here to preach?

reply to post by Mividau


You wrote:

["So to me there is a snake once again in eden. Will we resist the temptation this time."]

Are you referring to the original 'original sin' scenario, or is it just an allegory presenting another scenario?

In some of the gnostic subsets, the talking snake is actually one of the good guys.

reply to post by milkyway12

It really is a Ticket on the next bus to hell.

Unfortunately, if you examine history - religious history - hell did not exist until the Christians came on the scene. Can you find the Bible verse where Jesus says we are going to hell if we are bad boys and girls?

Just suppose. Hypothetically. Just for a minute. What if Jesus taught something like... say... oh reincarnation for example and the Church Fathers had cut it out? (Still in Hypothetical land here, right?) Would it be alright for the Church Fathers to cut that out of the Bible? Would that be okay for them to do? Would you have any problems or be slightly miffed if they did something like that?

We have stated what we are trying to do here several times, never once have I mentioned "convert Milkyway12 to my way of thinking". But you keep trying to change the discussion to "I'm right, you're wrong" even though I set out near the beginning that I did not engage in this sort of thing. But you do.

Okay, I give, your mastery of the art of circular argument has convinced me. I am wrong and you are right. Now hush a minute, I am trying to download "Highway to Hell" for my bus ride.

Seriously though, if your religion wants you to behave the way you have behaved here, I want no part of that one, as it isn't very Christian at all.

Since I moved to the small town I live in now I have been approached by two people from the same local church here and invited to join them for services one week. I thought about doing it too, but I found out that at this church the minister and the congregation frequently speak in tongues. They believe this vehemently, they really do.

Most Christians, not all, believe the same religion that their mothers and fathers believed, and yet they defend this religion they inherited as if they investigated and made the decision for themselves. It seems to me a much better idea to investigate and decide for yourself with the brain God gave you, and yet this has gotten me assigned to the next bus to hell? You have not tried to discuss anything at all, instead you have been preaching and trying to convert. The sign on the door said "no soliciting", that includes missionaries.

I have tried to be non-confrontational and explain patiently what we are trying to do and present sources for everything I say. You have done none of these things. I have refrained from attacking you or your beliefs. You have not. Your behavior, if taken as an example, will not convince anyone that you are on the right path. I believe that all spiritual paths lead back to God, but effort is required. You sir, are not making an honest effort to emulate Jesus behavior. Was Jesus not patient and forgiving and understanding? If you are indeed a Christian why do you not put some effort towards emulating Jesus? Isn't that what Christians are supposed to do? (Unless you are C.O.G.I.C. that is, in which case you are supposed to get filthy rich, buy your wife huge hats that look like they were designed by Dr. Seuss, and abuse white people in the service industry. Ooh, did I say that out loud?)

If Jesus teachings were corrupted, why would that not bother you? If, after these false men of God performed their corruption, they added in that the Holy Spirit inspired them, how can that be considered true, especially when their actions for centuries afterwards showed that it was not.

I am a busy man with not enough time in my day to waste any of it, from now on my response to your posts on this thread will be TLDR = too long didn't read. I will ignore your posts. You said that in that case you do not respond. Can I count on that buddy? Are you a man of your word, or will you continue to lob the holy hand grenade of Antioch at us?

You remind me of the song from the film Cool Hand Luke;

I don't care if it rains or freezes,
long as I got my plastic Jesus
a'sittin' on the dashboard of my car...

The Virgin Mary here on Earth is a Fallen Angel.

Wow, pretty sure that unreferenced, uncredited statement disqualifies you from offering anything at all of value to this thread. Did your minister tell you that?

reply to post by milkyway12

This is part of the following away. Just one of the things to decieve the elect. The Bible warns you about all of this.

TLDR

reply to post by bogomil

(Hypothetically I could still be a moron after 45 years of 'research', and in any case an 'authority argument' isn't of much value.)

Lol, perhaps but you do not strike me as one. I can find nothing I would wish to take issue with in this post or any of your posts in this thread. Indeed, if you check my profile I have already added you as a friend.

As I said in another post today, spirituality is a personal journey or it cannot work. The only sin is not embarking on that journey. Whether you are a believer or not is irrelevant, I agree. An investigation has occurred and you have arrived at what you believe - or do not believe - through thoughtful consideration, not by going once a week for your religious inoculation, and then behaving as if you were "covered" for another week. I actually welcome differing viewpoints, the importance is that it is a viewpoint you arrived at through conscious effort, not one you inherited unquestioned from your parents. This is why I said we were on the same page.

In truth I wish you would tell us a little more about your viewpoint as I am curious. BTW, I hope I did not make myself out as an authority. If I did, it was unintentional. Authorities stop seeking, I haven't at all. My problem with our friend is that he seems to want me to go backwards and unlearn the things I have learned. This I cannot do.

Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by Mividau

 

You wrote:

["So to me there is a snake once again in eden. Will we resist the temptation this time."]

Are you referring to the original 'original sin' scenario, or is it just an allegory presenting another scenario?

In some of the gnostic subsets, the talking snake is actually one of the good guys.

LOL Hmmmmmmmm
A allegory to try to wake up [open their mind to the possability] people who give the arguement
that the bible is 100% truth, that if GOD wanted it in there he could've.
[I hope I made sence LOL] Because he allowed the snake in the garden.
Why wouldnt he allow the same to the bible?

You gotta remember the gnositc books are new to me.
Which is why I asked for help because some of yall have devoted a life time to this.
To someone like me who just completely walked away from the norm.
[The Ot and NT just dont line up in my mind. So I began searching lol.]
Can be kinda mind blowing to say the least.

LOTZA LUV

reply to post by Ittabena

I believe that all spiritual paths lead back to God, but effort is required.

This statement here is simply beautifuly put.
That is what I am on a spiritual path. When I found out at 15
how closely Jesus's teachings resembled budhists. That was a mind
opener and always stuck with me.

But then when you get the pauline version of things the beauty of Jesus got lost.
I realy dont understand why so many get mad for me trying to find out why.
I believe Jesus taught deeply spiritual things that have gotten striped down to a
generic form.

Not only this but Jesus represented a creator who was nothing but love and kindness.
The GOD who sent him. When you read of Jesus through the NT [even though striped down],
I dont see a GOD who set up a hell to torture us for all enternity.
How do people leap from Jesus to hell. It just doesnt add up in my mind.

Am I on to something here or an airhead
LOTZA LUV