Hacker group AntiSec declares 'war' on U.S. police

reply to post by TrueAmerican


I have been well. 2011 is a transformative year for me, it seems.

Anarchy would most certainly be better. Just not right now. Since I am referencing Thoreau, from the opening paragraph of Civil Disobedience:

I HEARTILY ACCEPT the motto, — "That government is best which governs least";(1) and I should like to see it acted up to more rapidly and systematically. Carried out, it finally amounts to this, which also I believe, — "That government is best which governs not at all"; and when men are prepared for it, that will be the kind of government which they will have. Government is at best but an expedient; but most governments are usually, and all governments are sometimes, inexpedient. The objections which have been brought against a standing army, and they are many and weighty, and deserve to prevail, may also at last be brought against a standing government. The standing army is only an arm of the standing government. The government itself, which is only the mode which the people have chosen to execute their will, is equally liable to be abused and perverted before the people can act through it.

And, to play on his words, from Walden:

There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root.

A thousand hackers, indeed.

But my point here is is that I would rather anarchy of despotism or fascism. I am more capable of defending my own rights than our government or police are. To ensure that these rights are defended in my old age, I have taught my sons to be like me (one is prodigious, as scary as that may be).

I don't need a government to take care of me, or provide for me. That is my job. I just need a government to carry out the most minimal of functions to ensure a continuity of American freedom. Anything else is completely unAmerican.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


I understand the difference, I just dont think others understand the difference, including the roup doing the hacking itself. That is problematic for everyone since if they dont understand the difference, then they arent adequately understanding the problem, nor what their actions will do.

They dont like the laws, so they attack the police. That makes as much sense as the Police arresting car salesman for the increase in car accidents.

Cops dont make the laws, the legislature does. If these tools would get that through their heads and actually hallenege the law makers in stead of the police they would most likely make a larger impact and achieve the change.

Which is another point I wish to bring up... They arent talking about change, but atacks based on revenge which is based off of their noin understanding of how government works.

They are going for change, they are going for punishment and retaliation, which will inveite the same back on them.

They have not thought this through, they dont understand their actions ahve consequences, they dont have an understanding of how government works or how laws are made, and they are dragging their members down with them like lemmings off the cliff.

If their cause is so righteous, then why do they hide in the shadows while leaving you guys out in the open?

Originally posted by Xcathdra
reply to post by TrueAmerican

 

Of course.. because meeting illegal action with illegal action makes sense.

it's only illegal through the eyes of some, you know. had different people been in power at different times, we would obviously have different laws.

Originally posted by yourmaker

Originally posted by Xcathdra
reply to post by TrueAmerican

 

Of course.. because meeting illegal action with illegal action makes sense.

it's only illegal through the eyes of some, you know. had different people been in power at different times, we would obviously have different laws.

....and since the police dont make the laws, the point in attacking them is what? It wont change the laws will it? These people, if they are pushing to make changes, should go after the group who make the laws, not the ones who enforce the laws. Doing that leads to a pissing contest and nothing more. Remove all the cops from the scene and you still have the laws on the books because the police arent the ones who make, nor are they the ones who dismantle, existing laws.

Legislatures do.

The simple fact their targets are law enforcement tells me they are not intrested in chbange, and are onyl useing that argument to somehow justify their attacks.

They dont know what thyey are doing...
They dont understand how the system works
They dont understand their attacks on LEO systems will also hurt the people.

They are to arrogant to look 5 minutes down the road as to what they are doing and who their actions will afect.

By all means, hitch your wagons to them and hold on for the ride. Dont be suprised if you get sacrificed in order to save them though.

For a group to atack law enforcement while arguing about secrecy, while they themselves remain secret, is just funny as hell.

How you guys dont see they are exactly what they accuse the government of being is mind boggeling. If they are so open and against security, then they should have no issues telling us wall who they are and where they live. After all thats whbat they are demanding of cops.

Or are they somewhow exempt? If they are exept, are you?

reply to post by Xcathdra


I understand that the police don't make the laws. But they do enforce them, and have the scope to pick and choose what will be enforced (and how it will be enforced). The whole "but I am just doing my job" doesn't really satisfy people, as it is obvious that the job can be done in many different ways. Regardless, that excuse was not sufficient for Nazi's at Nuremburg. The bar has been set (although I am not comparing the Nazi's to anyone here, only referencing the argument used, and its ruled irrelevance). As a citizen of the United States, you have a duty to defend our freedom, job or not.

I quoted MLK earlier, but will requote him here, as it is completely relevant again at this point:

"I became convinced that noncooperation with evil is as much a moral obligation as is cooperation with good. No other person has been more eloquent and passionate in getting this idea across than Henry David Thoreau. As a result of his writings and personal witness, we are the heirs of a legacy of creative protest." - Martin Luther King, Jr, Autobiography

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


Right.. However the argument is the laws themselves. Going after the people who "enforce" them (which is not every single police agency or officer in the US - thats just stereotyping / generalizing and is naieve) doesnt change the laws themselves.

As I said, going after gun manufacturers because a person goes on a shooting spree doesnt solve the problem.
Going after alcohol makers because a person got drunk, drove and killed a family doesnt solve the problem.

Going after the police wont change the law. If anything it will force the creation of new ones to protect law enforcement as well as people in the system.

If they are truely intrested in changing the law, go after the legislature. The fact they dont concerns me because it suggests that is not their intention at all, but merely the excuse they are operating under to push their agenda.

reply to post by Xcathdra


I can agree that they should go after the legislature, or maybe the potus or scotus.

But civil disobedience is civil disobedience. It isn't like they are actually going to kill them, to clarify "going after". It is civil disobedience.

I think among the hyperbole of the debate, we should keep this in mind.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


Civil disobediance would be a protest. It stops being civil disobediance when private property is attacked and damaged or destroyed.

reply to post by Xcathdra


"property" is so very loosely applied here, as is "private".

Public offices and websites are "public property". And I would challenge the idea that a website is "property", as it is not "real".

If this were private property, it would be a private citizens website/email. Even then, the interpretation of what is property is something that is not quite the same as if they were breaking in windows in a riot.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

"property" is so very loosely applied here, as is "private".

Public offices and websites are "public property". And I would challenge the idea that a website is "property", as it is not "real".

If this were private property, it would be a private citizens website/email. Even then, the interpretation of what is property is something that is not quite the same as if they were breaking in windows in a riot.

No really they are not. A business that does business with the public, is in fact private. A Hospial (in the states) has a parkinglot that is open to the public. They are a private business.

True public property would be like city hall.

People protesting is civil disobediance.

people breaking windows, stealing items from stores, and torching cars is not civil disobediance, its rioting and its illegal.

There is no loose application at all.. It is exactly what it is.

A scene from the 'Untouchables':
Shawn Connery's character: What are you prepared to do to take down Al Capone?
Kevin Costner (played Elliot Ness): Everything within the law.
Shawn Connery: THEN what are you prepared to do?


There are no laws but those of nature. Sure, man can scribble some black ink on white paper, show it to a cop and say 'now go get this guys guns now' and the fool will do it. But that's due to mental conditioning over the years....that's what our indoctrination centers are for and my how well they work.
In any case, Law Enforcement has changed over the years, now they have become enforcers for our mafioso government...
Anonymous has the moral high ground. Clean cops have nothing to fear (in fact they will be protected).....but dirty cops...its time they knew fear.

reply to post by hatrickpenry


No laws but that of nature... please....

When some wingnut slaughters your family in the middle of the night I seriously doubt your argument is going to be laws of nature.

reply to post by Xcathdra


If somebody slaughters my family in the middle of the night, the police are not likely to be of help (even in my small little town). Response times are too great to prevent killing, which takes seconds.

"Natural Law" would dictate that I remain armed and vigilant, even while sleeping. And that is what I do. I won't likely shoot someone, though. I have large knives for hunting, and would want to verify it wasn't a family member before I shot.

Regardless, if i understand what you say correctly, it is non sequitur.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


You arent understanding wha tI am getting at. I agree wiht your response to an extent. What I am saying is people are quick to move all police into a category while claiming some other laws to justify that move.

Personally, I think they should go after the drug task forces in the US if they want to attack anyone who really deserves it.

A lot of people don't realize how bad it is, the spying, the set-ups, skirting laws and lying to people in order to get a bust. Treating people like criminals BEFORE they are convicted, tearing apart families who would of benefited more from drug counceling and intervention Vs Arrest, incrimination and felony charges.
Here, the drug task force gets $1500 per bust for funding, so they create, and set people up in order to get funding, tearing apart people who need help in the proccess. Believe it or not, they use NAZI tactics...children spying on parents and reporting them etc....

Take down the DEA, not the local PD...

I think they are attacking the wrong people.

reply to post by Darkblade71


AH yes the drug argumnet... This is exactly what I am talking about... Go after the wrong group based solely on a personal opinion while hiding the attack in something else.

Cops have nothing to do with drug laws either, the legislature would. You can end as many police agencies as you want, but it wont change the damn laws you guys find offensive. Maybe if people spent more time learning how the government worked and a little less time getting high while that class was going on, peope might know where laws come from.

Originally posted by Xcathdra
reply to post by Darkblade71

 

Maybe if people spent more time learning how the government worked and a little less time getting high while that class was going on, peope might know where laws come from.

LOL!! Very true.

It doesn't matter though because the laws are already in place, and really, honestly, the man on the street has absolutly NO control over the laws that are in place, anyone who thinks we do, is blind to the system that is in place also most people don't know their rights, and because of this fact, they get walked on and stomped by almost any agency with authority over civilians.

It is not a question of where the laws come from, only that they are twisted and abused by agencies who need funding in order to keep them employed. They hurt a lot of people in the proccess,to get their funding...

I guess my point is that law enforcement, and the war on drugs has gotten out of hand, and is wasting money.

Perhaps(although I seriously doubt their actions will do any good) these hackers might bring law enforcers down a notch.

Don't get me wrong, I have total respect for the law, until it infringes on my rights, which in the past I have had local law enforcement TRY to do, however, being someone who understands the constitution, I stood my ground in the PROPER ways, and put a quick stop to my rights being violated.

I am not for anarchy, the law has its place, and is needed, but perhaps somehow, it also needs to be PUT IN ITS PLACE, because looking around the last 10 years.....

I don't feel very free anymore.....do you?

I am a law abiding citizen...and I am also INTIMIDATED by local law enforcement...they don't make me feel safe, in their presence I feel like I must be on guard....

This is not the USA I was born in....



+

Originally posted by Darkblade71
It doesn't matter though because the laws are already in place, and really, honestly, the man on the street has absolutly NO control over the laws that are in place, anyone who thinks we do, is blind to the system that is in place also most people don't know their rights, and because of this fact, they get walked on and stomped by almost any agency with authority over civilians.

I completely disagree, and to be honest, that answer is a cop out and nothing more. We have states that have medicinal marijuana laws. We have states that allow for end of life suicide. We have cities within states who view marijuana posession as nothing but an infraction -

ALL because of the voters.

To simply say the person has no power is exactly the reason why we have laws people dont like and its exactly the reason we have representatives that think they can do whatever the hell they want.

To ismply say we have no voice without even making the attempt is a lazy copout and nothing more. People dont get stomped on by the police when they try to change the law, and saying so again distorts all facts and is a copout for not wanting to do anything proative at all.

Again the cops dont make the laws, the legislature does. Going after cops to change the law is about as useful as going after the President for over fishing in the Atlantic.

They are completel unrelated.

The Police have nothing to do with the war on drugs except enfore the laws the legislature put on the books. The Polie have nothing to do with the war on drugs when it comes to who goes to jail and for how long since that falls within the perviewof the courts. THe POolice have nothing to do with the war on drugs in terms of who is charged with a crime and who is not because that is the sole perview of the Prosecuting Attorney.

This is what I am talking about.. People have these misconceptions on who is to blame and they are not anywhere close at all.

The number of people charged with drug crimes are not charged because they are sitting in their house smoking a joint. They get caught with the drugs outside of their house, which again has nothing to do with law enforcement and aeveything to do with personal accountability and intelligence level on not getting caught.

People who smoke weed are just as incapable of smelling themsleves as heavy smokers are. You are around it and do it so much, you dont realize that even when you put on clean clothes, the smell is present and its horrendus.. Thats usually one of the tip offs.

Like I was saying.. People are so lost when it comes to how their government works that they just lash out at whatever they can, regardless if its productive or not.

In this case, its not productive, and if anything will be counter productive because not only will they piss the cops off, they will force the creation of new laws that deal specifically with there attacks, while in the end not accomplishing their goal, which is to change the behavior through a change in the law.

Put the joint down, pick up a government 101 book, read and forumlate your plan from there.

There a lot better chance of the plan working going that route, and a lot less chance of pepoel shoing up on the news, stoned out of their gords, going off on cops for their buddy being sentenced to jail for marijuana posession, which only reinforces the mainstream view on why the drug should be illegal.

All the while, the main reason for the attack on law enforcement sites will be lost in the shuffle, and people will be left scratching their heads as to what these tools were doing in the first place.

By the way, feeel free to point out in the Constitution where drug use is a right.

Also, talking about not seeing consequences of their actions - If these people who are attacking law enforcement sites are not insie the US, then they are opening up a can of worms that will go beyond just the intial law enforcement agency, which also opens up prosecution under laws that are federal as well as sttae and local.

Originally posted by Xcathdra

Originally posted by Darkblade71
It doesn't matter though because the laws are already in place, and really, honestly, the man on the street has absolutly NO control over the laws that are in place, anyone who thinks we do, is blind to the system that is in place also most people don't know their rights, and because of this fact, they get walked on and stomped by almost any agency with authority over civilians.

I completely disagree, and to be honest, that answer is a cop out and nothing more. We have states that have medicinal marijuana laws. We have states that allow for end of life suicide. We have cities within states who view marijuana posession as nothing but an infraction -

ALL because of the voters.

Ok, I stand corrected on this. As far as NO control over laws, we can vote for someone who hopefully believes what we believe, to make the laws for us, yes, we have that power, however, even when the people speak, sometimes it does NO GOOD...Point and case as to medical marijuana laws....Minnesota, where I live:

Gov. Tim Pawlenty vetoed what was considered the most strict medical marijuana bill in the country. The bill restricted use of medical marijuana to only terminally ill patients suffering a debilitating illness. A last minute amendment even removed eligibility for cancer patients undergoing chemotherapy who need the drug to combat nausea. A provision allowing patients to grow their own marijuana plants was also removed in hopes of increasing the chance for approval despite concerns of a possible veto.

And the Link-Minnesota Medical Marijuana

To simply say we have no voice without even making the attempt is a lazy copout and nothing more. People dont get stomped on by the police when they try to change the law, and saying so again distorts all facts and is a copout for not wanting to do anything proative at all.

The people in MN spoke, and it was shot down.

Again the cops dont make the laws, the legislature does. Going after cops to change the law is about as useful as going after the President for over fishing in the Atlantic.

They are completel unrelated.

I think the point the hackers were making is that police all over the country are OVERSTEPPING their boundaries. I understand that not all cops are bad cops, but have you ever run into a bad cop? I have.
But, Like I said in my previous post, I don't think it will do any good. Attacking the entire police dept. is not going to chase out a few bad apples.

The Police have nothing to do with the war on drugs except enfore the laws the legislature put on the books. The Police have nothing to do with the war on drugs when it comes to who goes to jail and for how long since that falls within the perviewof the courts. THe POolice have nothing to do with the war on drugs in terms of who is charged with a crime and who is not because that is the sole perview of the Prosecuting Attorney.

Again, police brutality is the core reason for this hacker attack if I am not mistaken.

The war on drugs is a lost cause and a money drainer. That is why, if you read my post, I said they should change their dirrection and focus on attacking agencies who are WORTHLESS...although I am slowly changing my mind as I think about this, perhaps they are doing the right thing....

This is what I am talking about.. People have these misconceptions on who is to blame and they are not anywhere close at all.

There is plenty of blame to go everywhere into every agency, local and gov. as well as civillian.
Sometimes change only comes with civil disobedience.
Change is needed in the system.

The number of people charged with drug crimes are not charged because they are sitting in their house smoking a joint. They get caught with the drugs outside of their house, which again has nothing to do with law enforcement and eveything to do with personal accountability and intelligence level on not getting caught.

People who smoke weed are just as incapable of smelling themsleves as heavy smokers are. You are around it and do it so much, you dont realize that even when you put on clean clothes, the smell is present and its horrendus.. Thats usually one of the tip offs.

Just wondering if youo are law enforcement yourself?

I don't know where you live but here they tap phones, wire people up and send them into your home to BEG you to give them a pill or whatever...con you into entrapping yourself and then 6 months later they break down your door and treat you like you planted a bomb somewhere.

Like I was saying.. People are so lost when it comes to how their government works that they just lash out at whatever they can, regardless if its productive or not.

Not lost as much as disenchanted with the system I think.

In this case, its not productive, and if anything will be counter productive because not only will they piss the cops off, they will force the creation of new laws that deal specifically with there attacks, while in the end not accomplishing their goal, which is to change the behavior through a change in the law.

I am afraid you are right, however I think this also speaks to a much wider problem which is a system that is going out of control and corrupt.

There a lot better chance of the plan working going that route, and a lot less chance of pepoel shoing up on the news, stoned out of their gords, going off on cops for their buddy being sentenced to jail for marijuana posession, which only reinforces the mainstream view on why the drug should be illegal.

All the while, the main reason for the attack on law enforcement sites will be lost in the shuffle, and people will be left scratching their heads as to what these tools were doing in the first place.

By the way, feeel free to point out in the Constitution where drug use is a right.

I never claimed that drug use is a right, although in a truely free society it would be.
All I said was I know my rights, and that when a police officer tried to stomp my rights into the ground, because I am aware of my rights, I was able to stop them. No where in there did I mention drugs and the constitution although it was written on hemp paper.....

Just to clarify, my encounter with the law was over something other than drugs. If I had not known my rights at that point, the officer would of walked all over them, and in fact, the officer had to radio back to dispatch and talk to her supervisor because she wasn't even aware of a persons rights....that doesn't say a lot of local police...

That's gonna be a long battle, boys.

There's bigger fish to fry than our own police, although the corrupt, power-tripping ones do need to be singled out and punished accordingly.

However, we need to cut this NWO at the head, not try to fight through its bullet-proof vest.

They want civilians to fight the police.

The police is teaming up with the military.

Not a good path to victory.