Is the obelisk in St. Peter's Square Masonic?

Originally posted by FortAnthem
The obelisk has been an occult symbol which features prominently is Freemasonry.

Actually, it does not feature at all. There is one brief reference to an obelisk in one of the Scottish Rite degrees and it is fairly inconsequential reference at that.

A older thread that comprehensively covered whether or not Masons hold the obelisk in any form of significance was the Interesting place to find a Masonic obelisk topic that eventually was locked.

reply to post by FortAnthem


just to be clear, I wouldn't care either way if the Obelisk was a masonic symbol or not, if it was, I think it would be taught to us at some point. I am not trying to obfuscate any facts, and if someone finds proof that it is in fact a masonic symbol, I would appreciate knowing what it is supposed to teach or represent.

Now, on with the phallic statue discussions FA!

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


Most people claim that the Washington monument is a Masonic symbol. A search of the symbology of the monument turns up plenty of sites claiming masonic references.

Blending Stupendousness With Elegance: The Washington Monument

Only ten days after the death of George Washington (in 1799), Congress decided they should build some kind of grand monument for the late president-general, the “Father of His Country.” A couple of schemes came up, a few elaborate fantasies, but nothing material happened. And nothing continued to happen, as nothing does, despite several fervid public statements made by G.W. enthusiasts, decrying the delay and upbraiding a nation of ingrates and ditherers.
A New Resolve, and a Search for Stupendousness

This guilt-ridden procrastination continued on until the most passionate Washington Monument devotees formed a Washington National Monument Society in 1833, to kick-start the long-postponed project and give the Father of Founding Fathers his due. They had lofty ambitions for a piece of work that would “blend stupendousness with elegance,” and they invited artists nationwide to submit designs in an open competition. Where the pointy spire now stands, we could have had an ornate Gothic tower, a creepy mini-pyramid, a rectangular column with a Washington-Colossus perched atop. But final victory went to the offering of Robert Mills, whose obelisk expressed that special “stupendousness” everyone was looking for.

(Obelisks, of course, were a favorite shape first for the Ancient Egyptians, and then for the Romans. Conquering Roman armies often pilfered Egyptian obelisks and lugged them back to Rome or some other imperial metropolis. After the Empire had its way, there were more obelisks in Rome alone than in all of Egypt. So anything the Romans liked that much was bound to be an instant hit with the early American Republic, as Mills no doubt knew.)

It seems the monument was designed to reflect a Romanesque style which would appeal to Americans. The only reference I can find in this story to masons is that they contributed bricks to be used in the construction of the monument after funding dried up.

Know-Nothings Hijack Monument to Save Nation From Popery

Funds remained scarce until Alabama initiated a breakthrough strategy. The states were each asked to donate money to the monument project; so Alabama, lacking money, offered a commemorative, engraved brick. It said, “Alabama. A union of equality, as adjusted by the constitution.” — subtly uppity, perhaps, but not out of line for a pre-Civil War motto. Organizers appreciated the gesture and asked the country for more stones. Before long, states, cities, societies, native tribes, companies, and lots of Freemasons were sending custom-chiseled bricks to D.C. — sometimes with money attached, often without.

Things looked up for the Monument until the anti-immigrant, anti-Catholic Know Nothings — officially known as the American Party — got wind that Pope Pius the IX had donated a stone. Unwilling to endure such vile papist poison in an American monument, the Know Nothings abducted the Pope’s stone and, most likely, drowned it in the Potomac.

Mental Floss

This seems to be the most fact-based account of the origins of the monument. The impression that the monument as being masonically inspired still seems to be strong in the public's mind.

Do you know of any connection between the monument and masonry?

Originally posted by FortAnthem
Do you know of any connection between the monument and masonry?

Other than the contributions you have located, I know of no other direct invlovement. However, there is a memorial desgined, built and maintained by Masons for George Washington.

The George Washington Masonic Memorial.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus



One thing I have always wondered about modern masonry;The article said that the bricks contributed by the masons were custom chiseled, do masons still learn the skills of stone carving?

Originally posted by Cobaltic1978
No it's Egyptian.

It was stolen from Egypt and placed there.

Back on topic. As the Masons base their whole philosophy on the building of the pyramids, and as the Pyramids were built by Egyptians, what do you reckon?

Pyramids

Erm .. no .. we base the teachings around Solomons Temple.


OP:

Obelisk's are not Masonic, they are not in our list of symbols, they have nothing to do with Masonry. The only thing close to it would be the various architecual designs of "pillars" ie, Doric or Corinthian.

reply to post by FortAnthem


Nope. And just because Masons donated the bricks doesn't mean they did the engraving. More likely they paid someone to engrave it and then shipped it.

It is kind of funny about the picture and the fact that they call us a secret society.

Our meetings are just like any other organizations business meetings: pay bills, new business, old business, upcoming events, and so on. So many know the work is on the net but so many conspiracies are not even based off of them, but usually 2nd hand info.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus

I've heard a few stories about the unity between the two.

Originally posted by FortAnthem
I have been able to find sites that claim that the obelisk is a Masonic symbol…

What's amusing to me about that page is that they insist Asherah means Obelisk. I'm no expert, but it's pretty easy to determine that the Asherah poles referred to in the bible were wooden, not stone. Their argument kind of falls apart at that point (if not before…)

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by FortAnthem

 

Nope. And just because Masons donated the bricks doesn't mean they did the engraving. More likely they paid someone to engrave it and then shipped it.

You see, I was almost sold on this whole masonry thingy until I heard this part.

If the Freemason's aren't going to equip me with the skills to carve giant phallic symbols out of stone then I don't want to have anything to do with the order.

Originally posted by FortAnthem
...do masons still learn the skills of stone carving?

I wish. If I tried to chisel something out of stone it would end up looking like the pickle that kid made for Billy Bob in Bad Santa.

Originally posted by FortAnthem

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by FortAnthem

 

Nope. And just because Masons donated the bricks doesn't mean they did the engraving. More likely they paid someone to engrave it and then shipped it.

You see, I was almost sold on this whole masonry thingy until I heard this part.

If the Freemason's aren't going to equip me with the skills to carve giant phallic symbols out of stone then I don't want to have anything to do with the order.

Don't be too hasty, you were just looking for the wrong group. You need Operative masons. They would be happy to teach you how to chisel stone into blocks, after you spend a few years schlepping tools and rocks. (nobody gets to start at the top)

reply to post by network dude


Indeed, when I decided I wanted to go into Masonry I had a pamphlet for Operative and Speculative. One offered brotherhood and plenty of social drinking, the other offered the risk of heat stroke and the joys of carrying a hod for years while getting screamed and cussed at by the actual Mason!

Although there is an operative Mason in my lodge, he likes to compare sizes of his trowel with that of the Lodges......

This is all so confusing...

In the English Constitution, there is a side order called The Operatives, which is actually speculative. Real operative masons are not allowed to join The Operatives until they have joined speculative Masonry. Speculative Masons, however, may join The Operatives one they have completed the Craft and joined HRA and Mark Masonry.

Here is the side order I'm talking about...

The Worshipful Society of Free Masons, Rough Masons, Wallers, Slaters, Paviours, Plaisterers & Bricklayers
(The Operatives)

The Operatives Official Website

The ritual of 'the Operatives' as they are familiarly called, is more archaic in form and much fuller than that of 'the Speculatives', containing practical instruction of which only echoes are found in speculative ritual, thereby providing an interesting field of study for the serious masonic student. The degrees of the Society are seven in number, namely:

I° Indentured Apprentice
II Fellow of the Craft
III° Super-Fellow, Fitter & Marker
IV° Super-Fellow, Setter Erector
V° Intendent, Overseer, Superintendant & Warden
VI° Passed Master
VII° Passed Grand Master Mason

There are at present some ten Assemblages of the Society spread throughout England, two of which meet in London.

Source

This order also has an Assemblage in South Africa, to which some of my Lodge members belong.

I had a great thread here on ATS about Obelisks and Freemasonry, but the ever dilligent board Masons shut it down pretty quick, feel free to U2U me for details on that one.
Interesting Place to Find A Masonic Obelisk
The Secret Societies Forum here is a shooting gallery, your thread will be innundated and die.

reply to post by FortAnthem



I urge everyone to have a look at this documentary, which I find really interesting!!

Secret Mysteries of America's Beginnings 2 - Riddles in Stone - Secret Architecture of Washington, D.C.

Google Video Link

Sincererly

Frater RC. Skekke

reply to post by FortAnthem
The obelisk was brought from Egypt in around 37AD by the Romans. They admired these monoliths and carted scores to Italy...that's about 1200 miles iirc. Some of them were close to 400 tons. This particular one is dated to almost 2000BC.

It was Pope Sixtus V who had the notion of having this mighty object erected in St Peter's square in the year 1585.

This was a hell of a mission and demonstrates how much more efficient in techniques the Egyptians and Romans had been. Whereas the Egyptians had erected hundreds of them centuries ago and the Romans had been able to move them 100s of miles, the 16th Century Papacy had a lot more trouble. Here's a couple of images of the brute force and Roman construction techniques (capstans, levers, livestock, manpower etc) they used....





So the original design intentions of the Egyptians weren't masonic and it's difficult to nail Pope Sixtus' motivations to masonry. Sixtus was an ambitious Pope and you might find reading a bio of his interesting. He accomplished a great deal in the final decade of his life even it was at the cost of Rome's citizenry in extortionate fees and taxes. His vision for the monumental and for legacy was powerful and shaped the Rome we know today.

Originally posted by twitchy
I had a great thread here on ATS about Obelisks and Freemasonry...

I already linked it.

...[but the ever dilligent board Masons shut it down pretty quick...

Yeah, it lasted 20 pages so I guess it was really quick. It probabaly would have kept going if you did not avoid answering questions, did not state it was your purpose to antagonize Masons and did not get in a pissing contest with a Super Moderator.

reply to post by FortAnthem


This peice on Obelisks was interesting..

second line.

Originally posted by Rosha

This peice on Obelisks was interesting..

The first thing I noticed was the word "watch" in the web address...

Then, browsing through the article, words such as 'blasphemy', 'Luciferic', and the good old "Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths" quotes from the Bible.

Got me wondering about the validity of the sources...