Two Cops, a UFO and an Alligator

Excellent presentation and a new one on me. Too bad I'm always late to the good parties.

Man this one has a lot going for it...including that ol' telling marker: High Strangeness! Their reports also have the ring of truth to it and it's a fairly safe bet they weren't pulling a con.

Helicopter? Not impossible, but as has been pointed out very improbable.

The MIB would be the high strangeness clincher except for--as you pointed out spoilsport--the affinity of certain jokers to propagate that mythology.

The somewhat different way they each experienced the same event is another 'marker' that turns up in some of the more fascinating cases. Weird that, and suggests to some researchers that causation of the experiences is often linked closely with one specific member of the encounter.

Considering the rest of the account, however, I'm leaning towards a classical case for the time period. It's probably now lost to time, but I would be extremely curious to know if either of the officers had 'esoteric' hobbies/experiences.

Thanks Kandinsky, for all you bring to the table here.

reply to post by The GUT
Hiya G, I originally sought the advice of Tim Beckley-Green about the case because one of the documents in Project Blue Book is extracted from one of Jim Moseley's publications. He's a very helpful man and provided some recollections about the case. Due to it being unfair to post somebody's private correspondence, I left them out. One thing he did say was that he thought he was the interviewer of McCoy and Goode that wrote the piece,

It was during the aggro about Hopkins and Rainey and it was great stuff seeing the nice side of the subject. Several researchers and commentators were helpful and it was appreciated.

In my mind, the case is indeed a classic of its type and it's high on the list of favourites. Incidentally, one of the best interviews in recent times (pure UFO history) was Tim Binnall talking to Ann Druffel. She's a walking historical document of ufology from the 60s to now and very listenable. A reason you might find it particularly interesting is because she shares your thoughts on the causes. It's a looooong interview and I think it was episode 2 where she talks about her ideas.

Binnall of America - Ann Druffel Episode 1 (right click save as)

Binnall of America - Ann Druffel Episode 2

Binnall of America - Ann Druffel Episode 3 (right click save as)

reply to post by Kandinsky


i was listening to this event on coast to coast i think the guest speaker was preston denett and he was talking about ufos that healed people and he could'nt find a valid reason why these people were selected for healing other than they were humaniterians. my thoughts on this are that these people selected would maybe have died from these ailments and the effect of this happening could change futuristic events in some way. so im proposing that these so called aliens/ufos are actualy from the future and actualy sent back to change things for the better or worse who knows. any views

reply to post by antonyhickin
I'll have a look for the interview, thanks.

The healing aspect of this case is hard to swallow, but seems to be backed up by researchers as well as the words of Billy McCoy. As for *why?* It's anyone's guess if such an outcome was deliberate or incidental. Maybe there was some kind of time dilation effect and they aged some few days? Like I noted in the OP, *if* it really happened, it's evidence that in the future, we might be able to heal a lot of injuries by light frequencies.

Are UFOs from the future? We don't know and *they* aren't telling.

reply to post by Kandinsky


cool great work son

reply to post by Kandinsky


I was living in West Columbia at the time of this sighting but never knew the details until recently from the internet. I knew Bob Goode and his family but did not know Billy McCoy. Goode's son and daughters are still alive as is McCoy who lives in Lake Jackson.

A little background: The area is more like southern Louisiana than the rest of Texas. It's on the Gulf Coast and it's flat, about 50' above sea level. I learned to fly in Angleton and we set our altimeters there for 30'. Damon is located on a salt dome whose highest point is 144' ASL so it's easily the highest point for miles around.. Hiway 36 runs in a straight line from West Columbia to Damon oriented 337 and 157 true north. Sweeny, where the deputies worked the ball game on 9/3/65, is about 20 road mile from Damon and the road passes through West Columbia which is about 12 miles from Damon, so to get to Damon they had to first travel north on 36 and apparently saw nothing. Their sighting was made on the way back from Damon to West Columbia when they were headed in the SE direction and McCoy was looking to his right and noticed the light(s). At that time they were about 3 miles out of Damon.

The thing that caught my attention in McCoy's recorded oral report was his statement that the moon was almost full and almost directly overhead. The BB report shows that the moon was only in it's first quarter (a half-moon) and that at 11.00PM it was only 15 degrees above the horizon at an azimuth reading of 230 degrees. I couldn't see how he and Goode could have been that mistaken.

My take on it is this: Looking at the BB report, there is a copy of an FAA sectional map for the area. The map shows two towers with a height of 409' AGL north of Bay City some 20 miles away. These towers would have aircraft warning lights not just at the top but also between the top and the ground. Using Google Earth and drawing a line in a 230 degree direction from 3 miles south of Damon (which is about at Winebrenner Rd) the line passes through that area. With the very gradual increase in elevation to Damon, the towers probably become visible at that point. They wouldn't have been noticeable going north into Damon, but they would have been going south. When McCoy saw these lights on their run back north into Damon after seeing the object I believe the "rear window" that he was referring to was the rear left seat passenger's window, not the back window above the trunk.

But what about the "body" of the object that they saw? First remember that the moon was also located at 230 degrees from their location. According to the BB weather report for that night, the day had been quite warm followed by relative cooling that night. It's possible that the warm air from the ground and the cooler air from above set the stage for an inferior mirage in which the moon appeared inverted and somewhat flattened with a grayish color. The deputies remembered seeing the "object" which was actually the refracted vision of the moon with the actual moon some 15 degrees above it and falsely remembered the moon as being high in the sky.

And in trying to interpret all this, their imagination began to run wild.

Originally posted by imitator
Hey I just solved this case....

The silhouette is the image of an helicopter

Probably a military copter, maybe a Huey Cobra....

As for the men in Black.... probably military.

As for his finger.... it was wrapped up, so of course it will relieve swelling and pressure...


NO brainer .... CASED CLOSED

Thank you

edit on 5-8-2011 by imitator because: (no reason given)

really?....200 feet in length, 50 feet thick in the center, tapering out to the edges...yeah!...right!...a helicopter

reply to post by oldretiree
Thank you very much for your comments, it's good to read extra details from someone who was near enough to know the land and the times.

I have to say, I honestly don't know what to think about the events and looking at your thoughts on the incident, I remain unsure. For me a lot of the focus was on the character of McCoy and Goode. McCoy was vouched for by colleagues and his position suggested a stable character. Goode, on the other hand, raised doubts in my mind due to the more extraordinary elements that were supposed to have happened to him. Also, the main character reference appears to be McCoy.

I only reiterate these points because I find it quite difficult to interpret their report as misperception and hysteria. However, I agree with you that these would be elements if the report was genuine, but we probably disagree as to the extent. It's this sticking-point of knowing if the report was genuine or not where I tend to feel the origin of the case would be found.

The thing that caught my attention in McCoy's recorded oral report was his statement that the moon was almost full and almost directly overhead. The BB report shows that the moon was only in it's first quarter (a half-moon) and that at 11.00PM it was only 15 degrees above the horizon at an azimuth reading of 230 degrees. I couldn't see how he and Goode could have been that mistaken.

Great attention to detail and a potentially, well-spotted discrepancy. However, on that Friday the moon was in its 2nd night of the 1st Quarter and 57-58% visible. The Navy have it at 64% visible. That's quite a way from 'full,' but not necessarily that far from 'almost full.' Major Leach et al were aware of the moon's position at that time so it could be the vagrancies of memory in the retelling rather than a woeful ability to describe what he saw that night.

These towers would have aircraft warning lights not just at the top but also between the top and the ground.

Now that's something interesting again and I'd like a link to the page if you can. These lights would be red wouldn't they? Were they red in '65 too? I can sort of push my imagination to envisage them saying 'purple' rather than red but I can't quite imagine where they might go wrong about a blue light.

For instance, the angular size of an aircraft warning light (2' diameter maybe?) seen from 3 miles away would be along the lines of ~100 arcseconds. This presents problems as either the angular size of the aircraft warning lights (if visible) were not large enough to account for the description of a large purple light or the secondary blue light would be too small to be visible. Could we have one and not the other? I could be wrong about this and hope you reply. Another thing I wonder about is the candle-brightness of the tower lights. They wouldn't be hi-visibility strobes like on aircraft.

Your impression that they were misled by an inferior mirage of the moon doesn't convince me and if you could add a little more detail to that idea I'd appreciate it. Incidentally, have we discussed similar reports under different names? Your approach is very familiar.

reply to post by oldretiree
Nice addition, oldretiree. Hope we see more of you around here. Probably the best first post I've seen. That I can remember anyways.

You and our resident braniac Kandinsky would make a helluva investigative team. Now THAT's a History Channel UFO show I would watch.

Kudos to you both.

www.fold3.com...

Thanks for the reply. Here's the link showing the FAA sectional chart showing the towers at Bay City, I believe it's page 9. I have no first hand knowlege of the size, color or intensity of the lights on those specific towers or whether those towers are even still there. I have seen other towers in the Gulf Coast area with strobes, but I don't remember if they used that technology back in the mid 60's or not. The area occasionally has very heavy fog and I remember sometimes seeing the strobes at night. I'm retired from AT&T and sometimes went out during the night when we had outages. As luck would have it I do know something about the light on the Damon water tower as a friend and I once climbed it when we were teen-agers. Back then it was sort of a rite-of-passage (okay, there was a little cheap wine involved also). I remember being surprised at its size. Instead of being the size of a coffee can like for some reason I thought it would be, it was more the size of a small barrel. My point is, these lights were designed to be seen, although I agree that 20 miles is certainly stretching it no matter how good the atmospheric conditions are. On flat country like this you can see a long way though; flying from the Bay City airport to the Angleton airport 26 miles away, the angleton hangars (light colored) are sometimes immediately visible after take-off. I had also considered the possibility of the deputies having seen lights on two 400' smokestacks at New Gulf 11 miles away, but these are located at 274 degrees true north from where the deputies were and could not have fallen into the direction they indicated the sighting was. By the way, I take the BB direction of the sighting as being 240 degrees only as a general direction as I think the major may have been influenced by Antares being in that direction. The best that we can say is that the lights were in the southwest since the deputies did not notice them when driving northwest.

I have no special knowledge of mirages other than what I find on the internet and the "water" that I see in the distance on hot Texas roads which I'm told is a refracted image of the sky. I've read that two levels of temperature, the top being cooler than the bottom, can result in an "inferior mirage" in which an image of an object can appear beneath the actual object and is inverted and a darker color. Goode's drawing reminded me of an inverted half moon when it is just above the horizon. It's a far-fetched theory, but not that far-fetched when we begin considering alternatives.

As to the character of Bob Goode (as I mentioned, I do not know Billy McCoy), he was very highly respected in the West Columbia area, having at one time been with the city police force I believe and after retiring from the county sheriff's department being elected as the justice of the peace for that precinct. He was older than I am by at least 30 years or so; I was in high school the same time as his kids were. He seemed to me to be an authoritative no nonsense kind of guy and in fact I was a little surprised to read that McCoy was the chief deputy rather than Goode. I brought up the sighting incident once when I saw him in a convenience store, but he obviously didn't want to talk about it. The alligator story may have gotten somewhat out of hand. I don't know what the operating procedures of the sheriff's department were; perhaps it was unusual for two deputies to ride together and they used the alligator bite for a reason and then the story got legs of its own. That's just pure conjecture on my part. I will say that I will never believe that Bob Goode would be a party to some sort of public hoax. He and McCoy witnessed something but I believe their minds misinterpreted what their senses were telling them.

As to the MIB, I wouldn't put a lot of stock in that either. After the deputies went to the city judge that night, you can bet that the story was all that was being discussed in Twin Oaks which was the local cafe hang out the next day. There were some really good practical jokers from what we now know as the Greatest Generation and they were always ready to pull something. There was never any meaness meant, it was just something done in a small community where people knew one another like kinfolks because a lot of them were.

No, I've never posted here before. I did post my observation of the discrepancy on the moon phase and location somewhere when I first noticed it the other day, maybe you saw that. Again, thanks for replying and let me know if there's anything I might be able to shed some light on.

reply to post by easynow

Hi, easynow, I've only first posted here today, so I hope you guys won't see me as some sort of know-it-all, but I am very familiar with this area and may be able to help with your 4th observation. I think your diagram of the route taken by the deputies is spot-on by the way.

As the BB major stated in his report, the San Bernard River roughly parallels Hiway 36 and is about 5 miles away at the location of the sighting. The old Damon-West Columbia road runs (again in a roughly parallel direction) between the two and is about 1.75 miles from 36 at the sighting location. The area between 36 and the Damon-West Columbia road was at that time just prairie and pretty much treeless. However, the area between the Damon-West Columbia road and the river was (and probably still is) treeless for only less than a mile because the area along both sides of the river are heavily treed out to a distance of a couple of miles or so. The river floods occasionally (or did) so the land is not suitable for farming.

If the light(s) that the deputies observed were actually on the other side of the river and were the right height above the ground, they might be be visible from 36 because of a lower viewing angle over the trees compared to a view off the Damon-West Columbia road. I guess what I'm basically saying is the trees were in the way. Plus, because of the area's topography around Damon (which is on a salt dome) Hiway 36 is slighly higher in elevation than the Damon-West Columbia road.

I hope I've made this clear, reading back over it I'm not sure that I understand it myself.

reply to post by oldretiree


Welcome...

I find it interesting that your first post is so intimate with the area and some of the people involved.

That in and of itself seems odd and sort of conspiratorial. A strange coincidence wouldn't you agree.

Originally posted by olaru12
Welcome...

I find it interesting that your first post is so intimate with the area and some of the people involved.

That in and of itself seems odd and sort of conspiratorial. imo

Tinfoil much?

Probably why he joined since he's familiar with the area, characters, and story would be my first guess. Don't get me wrong, I gots me own tinfoil. I just find it hard to believe that this particular story, after so long, and with no "Rosewell-like fanclub" would be of any interest to a disinfo agent.

No offense, and I could be wrong, but maybe we should be a tad more welcoming to a new member...especially one who took the time to provide some indepth content.

reply to post by The GUT


Well olaru12, here on planet earth everybody has to grow up somewhere. I just happened to grow up in Brazoria County Texas where this incident took place. Nothing coincidental about that.

Actually, I was watching some sort of UFO marathon on I believe the History Channel the other day when they flashed a picture of McCoy's or Goode's sketch and I was reminded of this time. I decided to see what I could find on the internet and here I am.

I come in peace, I'll try not to rain on anyone's parade by letting facts get in the way of a good story.

Originally posted by The GUT

Originally posted by olaru12
Welcome...

I find it interesting that your first post is so intimate with the area and some of the people involved.

That in and of itself seems odd and sort of conspiratorial. imo

Tinfoil, much?

Probably why he joined since he's familiar with the area, characters, and story would be my first guess. Don't get me wrong, I gots me own tinfoil. I just find it hard to believe that this particular story, after so long, and with no "Rosewell-like fanclub" would be of any interest to a disinfo agent.

No offense, and I could be wrong, but maybe we should be a tad more welcoming to a new member...especially one who took the time to provide some indepth content.

edit on 26-9-2012 by The GUT because: (no reason given)

Oh, I'm sorry! I thought the ATS creed was to deny ignorance and question everything even if it makes some feel uncomfortable. Any way I said "Welcome" what else should I have said to be "a tad more welcoming"?

Tinfoil much?........yeah maybe a little

btw Kandinsky, great thread!

reply to post by Kandinsky


Kandinsky,

By the way, the caption on the the picture of the two deputies looking at a sketch of the object they saw is incorrect. That's McCoy standing. Goode is sitting at the desk.

reply to post by oldretiree
I'm going to post and run (literally) and have to say thanks first for giving me something to get my teeth into and fire up the grey cells. I've no time right now to tackle all your points so the moon and conditions is all for now.

I’m no expert on temperature inversions either although I have had cause to keep a few papers and images on the subject. Quite frankly, it’s surprising how many times the existence of an inversion has been used as a ‘magician’s hat’ to pull out stranger explanations than simply suspended judgement. Regarding inferior mirages, it would surprise some people to know that they’d seen them many times in their lives. For anyone reading who is new to these ideas, here are some images to illustrate the concept. This cartoon really makes it simple...

Arizona Uni

Let’s take another look at the object these guys described and consider the words in their statement. From there we can compare it to an inferior mirage of the moon.

‘The object came up to the pasture next to the highway, about 150 feet off the highway and about 100 feet high. The bulk of the object was plainly visible at this time and appeared triangularly shaped with a bright purple light on the left and the smaller, less bright blue light on the right end.’

ETA - Whoops. I just turned the car back to edit this after realising an error. I'll try again later! Oh dear!

reply to post by Kandinsky


Kandinsky, as you can probably tell by the time of night that I'm posting this, I really am just an old retiree.

A couple of things that need to be considered though: First, McCoy stated that Jim Scott and his family went to visit the location of the sighting that very night but he didn't say whether he or Goode accompanied them. Without one of them, Scott would not have know exactly which direction to look or if he was even at the correct location of the sighting. If he didn't go far enough up Hiway 36, he may not have gained enough elevation to see the lights.

Second, while McCoy does say that he visited the site over the next several nights, he doesn't say whether atmospheric conditions had changed, which is critical if in fact the lights were located at a greater distance away than they thought which I'm inclined to believe since Goode couldn't make them out even with binoculars. We know that there was a change by the time the major got there on the 8th because he stated that it had rained twice since the sighting on the 3rd.

And lastly I guess, we aren't told whether the major was ever there at night time. The pictures that were taken of him, McCoy and Goode on the hiway were taken during the day and we don't know how long he stayed.

That's it, I'm going to bed.

reply to post by oldretiree
Here's the corrected post - I'd calculated the size from memory and realised I should have checked it rather than posting in error.

The quarter moon as an inferior mirage would be like an amorphous reflection of itself across the horizontal plane. They don’t tend to be *exact* reflections and can be multiple reflections towered one upon the other. However, it would still be a variation on the hemisphere of visible moon; perhaps something like a letter B in shape? It would also be white in colour like the moon with possible gradations of tone. The object was described as dark in colour and an the horizontal plane which conflicts even further with the possibility of an inferior mirage of the moon set on the vertical plane.

More emphatically against that idea is the alleged size and proximity of the object.

‘The object came up to the pasture next to the highway, about 150 feet off the highway and about 100 feet high. The bulk of the object was plainly visible at this time and appeared triangularly shaped with a bright purple light on the left and the smaller, less bright blue light on the right end.’

In the illustrations, they claim it was 200 feet wide. The angular diameter of this would take up quite a large part of their field of view; ~67 degrees by my reckoning. This image helps to put that into perspective (hand is at arm’s length) >

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/img/wk5064770c.JPG[/atsimg] Angular diameter

So we apparently have a rapidly moving *something* taking up a large area of sky in an area perceived as some 150 feet away. This ‘something’ is then described as being ‘triangularly-shaped’ and having the two lights on either side of it. Angular diameter can be used again (if we set aside the object they describe) by using it to estimate the distance between the two lights if they were at a distance away. Of course, this only works if the lights were the same distance away. If they were, for every mile they are distant, they’d be ~60% of a mile apart; 10m distant at ~6m separation. Between the judge, Jim Scott, visiting the scene shortly thereafter and the BB investigation, it would be surprising if they’d overlooked two light sources. Furthermore, the lights were then described as moving rapidly and departing at a 90 degree angle.

I agree that we can’t know for sure if Jim Scott went to the exact place or whether Leach et al was there at night-time. Neither can we rule them out; Scott was a local guy and could well have been able to follow directions easily.

www.youtube.com...

This would all be much easier if people reported what they saw and remembered. The problem is they sometimes report (usually honestly) what they only believe they saw and remembered.

The deputies' first observation was of simple lights seen at a distance far enough away that they were not discernible with binoculars. That sighting was in their minds and could have been combined and wrapped in with something they saw following that, especially if the following sighting was in the same direction. Memory is not dependable and a person's span of attention is limited just as his eyes are limited in what they can take in at any one time. When stress leads to "tunnel vision", he is able to take in even less.

The attachment above is an interesting YouTube link which sort of illustrates this point. Some of you may have already seen it.