Repeal minimum wage says the Grouch

Sure our system now is not great but things can be much worse. I think this issue is so pivatol because if our society collapses we have to come together and put it back together.

reply to post by davidgrouchy


The only way I would support a repeal of minimum wage is if all life supporting essentials were funded publicly and I was guaranteed to have a roof over my head, food on the table, and other basic services provided to me in the event I could not obtain work. If everyone was guaranteed these basic life essential services, then I could imagine an employer paying a person $1 an hour if that was the going rate. Most people labor away 8+ hours a day most of the week anyway and can barely afford the life giving essentials. If they had it all guaranteed, then every few dollars extra they made would be worth their time to work for a few extra bucks. Currently, many work for just enough to keep the roof over their head.

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
Of course, ask the independent farmer how they're doing today up against the corporate farm. Got to love that Monsanto corporation, no?

No, I hate them. Why do you want to give them unfettered freedom? They have so much money now, public backlash will mean nothing to them. There would be literally no form of defense against them. Why do want this??

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
Also, quit pretending like there are not people today working 12 hour days, and some in horrible conditions. If your vaunted government intrusion was so effective the why did I easily find this article?

People who regularly work long hours may be significantly increasing their risk of developing heart disease, the world's biggest killer, British scientists said Monday.

Researchers said a long-term study showed that working more than 11 hours a day increased the risk of heart disease by 67 percent, compared with working a standard 7 to 8 hours a day.

Or this article?

Americans work longer hours than nearly anyone in the developed world, even the Japanese. For many professionals and corporate managers, the 40-hour work week is history; 60- to 80-hour work weeks are now the norm.

Or this article, or this one, this one,, and this article?

All of these articles I just linked are reflective of a heavily regulated market place where the minimum wage is firmly in place.

These things are not the fault of the min wage. Its like saying Americans work more because they take a lunch break and have a right to use the bathroom whenever they want. Americans are working more......why? Because they will get fired if they dont, and there arent a lot of employment options out there in a bad economy. If I could find a job making more money and working less hours, I would take it. But I cant, probably not without moving. I guess its my "choice" to not want to move away, but when things are stacked so one sidedly, I hardly have a choice.

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by aching_knuckles

 

ETA: Just who is the useful idiot? Me, who wants limits on corporate powers, or people like you, that argue to give the corporations unrestricted power and freedom? Which do you think the corporations want more?

More pretense from the poster who has never once bothered to post anything in the thread I created called Killing Korporations. That thread was largely ignored, and most assuredly ignored by the so called "anti corporatists". Why? I can only guess, and that guess is that no one wants to do away with the evil corporation, because then what would they have to whine about?

Who is the useful idiot? It is fairly argued a smart guy would have restrained from your imprudent remarks until finding out for certain where my ideology lies, and how tirelessly I have worked at fighting corporatism. But hey, idiots have their uses.

When a man resorts to insults, he has already lost the argument.

And you are whining that your thread was "largely ignored"? I never even heard of it until now, so get off your preachy high horse acting and calling me a "corporatist", when you wont answer the question. Which do you think corporations want more, and would favor corporations more, restrictions enacted by law, or complete, unabridged freeedom to do whatever?

Why are you pushing for the thing that a corporation wants the most then calling me a "corporatist"? You are clearly hypocritical and make no sense, which is why you had to resort to attacks. Ive had enough of your pseudo-intelligence and charlatan theories.

reply to post by aching_knuckles

No, I hate them. Why do you want to give them unfettered freedom? They have so much money now, public backlash will mean nothing to them. There would be literally no form of defense against them. Why do want this??

You have obviously, at this writing, not yet read the Killing Korporations thread I linked. Will you actually take the time to read that thread, or keep pretending I want to give corporations "unfettered freedom".

Freedom cannot be given, it is taken. Corporations cannot take freedom because they are legal fictions and chartered entities that exist solely by permission of the state.

I and you, on the other hand, do not exist by permission of the state, and as long as we are acting lawfully have the natural right to unfettered freedom.

Why do you hate freedom so much?

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by aching_knuckles

 

No, I hate them. Why do you want to give them unfettered freedom? They have so much money now, public backlash will mean nothing to them. There would be literally no form of defense against them. Why do want this??

You have obviously, at this writing, not yet read the Killing Korporations thread I linked. Will you actually take the time to read that thread, or keep pretending I want to give corporations "unfettered freedom".

Freedom cannot be given, it is taken. Corporations cannot take freedom because they are legal fictions and chartered entities that exist solely by permission of the state.

I and you, on the other hand, do not exist by permission of the state, and as long as we are acting lawfully have the natural right to unfettered freedom.

Why do you hate freedom so much?

Oh, I see, you are going to completely reverse nearly 140 years of laws in one fell swoop, creating a perfect storm of market forces that will create order out of chaos. This is as much a Utopian fantasy as giving everyone free housing, food, medical care and schooling. You are basically just stamping your feet and saying "My way is best, and no other way will work", but your way is not feasible. You think corporations are going to allow being disbanded? What happens to all their assets? Transferred to one person? Then what is to stop that one person from being the corporation, or to stop 15 people from getting together and forming a group that works together to influence events? Methinks you havent thought this all the way through.

reply to post by aching_knuckles

When a man resorts to insults, he has already lost the argument.

If by insult, you are referencing my comments of useful idiots, perhaps you might educate yourself a bit more and learn that I am simply using a well known phrase:

In political jargon, the term useful idiot was used to describe Soviet sympathizers in Western countries. The implication is that though the person in question naïvely thinks themselves an ally of the Soviets or other ideologies, they are actually held in contempt by the Soviets, and were being cynically used.

When it comes to corporatism, you most assuredly fit the bill, and the corporatist holds you in contempt, while simultaneously recognizing your use as you continue to advocate a heavily regulated market place that ensures the corporatist far less competition than if this were a free and unregulated market place.

If you are insulted by this, you should be, but you should also understand who is insulting you and how useful you have been for them.

And you are whining that your thread was "largely ignored"? I never even heard of it until now, so get off your preachy high horse acting and calling me a "corporatist", when you wont answer the question. Which do you think corporations want more, and would favor corporations more, restrictions enacted by law, or complete, unabridged freeedom to do whatever?

A corporation, by virtue of its existence, is a regulated entity, and of course, they want you and I to be regulated just like they. I have answered this question, you just keep ignoring it, while pretending that it was wise to assume I am pro corporatist - in spite of posts I have made in this very thread to the contrary - instead of taking the time to actually find out the truth. Could that be because the truth is not really what your after?

Why are you pushing for the thing that a corporation wants the most then calling me a "corporatist"? You are clearly hypocritical and make no sense, which is why you had to resort to attacks. Ive had enough of your pseudo-intelligence and charlatan theories.

It is statements like this that make you such a useful idiot for the corporatist's.

Call them attacks all you like, you are not doing a thing to reign in corporatism with you thoughtless advocacy of government regulations.

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux

Americans work longer hours than nearly anyone in the developed world, even the Japanese. For many professionals and corporate managers, the 40-hour work week is history; 60- to 80-hour work weeks are now the norm.

Most people I know on min. wage HAVE to work 60+ hours
To make ends meat.....

They would love to work 60+ hours at say 10$ per hour
without a complaint...

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


I think what aching_knuckles and others are trying to say is that thinking minimum wage being repealed will rid us of the "evil" corporations, is a fallacy. The corporations aren't going to go anywhere, what will you decide you don't want those plasma screen t.v.s and ipads? Who is going to produce those things? Nobody, I have not seen one new electronics company open in the past 20 years!
ETA: not to mention that a lot of those patents are not even close to being past term.

reply to post by aching_knuckles

Oh, I see, you are going to completely reverse nearly 140 years of laws in one fell swoop, creating a perfect storm of market forces that will create order out of chaos. This is as much a Utopian fantasy as giving everyone free housing, food, medical care and schooling. You are basically just stamping your feet and saying "My way is best, and no other way will work", but your way is not feasible. You think corporations are going to allow being disbanded? What happens to all their assets? Transferred to one person? Then what is to stop that one person from being the corporation, or to stop 15 people from getting together and forming a group that works together to influence events? Methinks you havent thought this all the way through.

Uh-huh. All this coming from the very thoughtful advocate of corporatism, heavy regulations, and abrogations and derogation of individuals rights.

You have very clearly still not read that thread. Yes, I think corporations can have their charters revoked, and in fact corporations do have their charters revoked. Ironically, it is the small to mid size corporations that have them revoked, but your advocacy of helplessness will not help reign in the corporate malfeasance of conglomerates.

You do not want to fix the problems, or worse, what you want is the continued success of corporatism and you are simply playing the fool in an attempt to recruit more useful idiots.

End Social Security.
End Medicare.
End the social safety net.
End the minimum wage.

The Republicans / Tea Party can have whatever they want.
It's time to get on with it.

that is sad that some people either have to work 60 hours or feel they need to. I work 32 hours myself and it is tiring at times. I like to work at least 30 hours a week myself but 60 would not allow me to enjoy life. This is why minuim wage needs to be raised.

reply to post by ren1999


We can't end all of those things or we would have a poverty rate of 50% and a homeless rate of like 30%. Right now our poverty rate is 15% and the homeless rate is about 10%?

Originally posted by ldyserenity
reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

 

I think what aching_knuckles and others are trying to say is that thinking minimum wage being repealed will rid us of the "evil" corporations, is a fallacy. The corporations aren't going to go anywhere, what will you decide you don't want those plasma screen t.v.s and ipads? Who is going to produce those things? Nobody, I have not seen one new electronics company open in the past 20 years!

Neither the O.P., nor I are making any such arguments.

Nor am I arguing that corporations have to go. What I am arguing is that they need to be reigned in by We the People, and that corporatism as an economic model is bad news.

Ironically though, you have just created a post advocating corporatism. Regulate the corporations all you want, and let the private individuals who are not incorporated operate outside that system in a free and open market place. This is what I am advocating.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/4568230b5e99.png[/atsimg]

Seeing as we cannot come to a consensus on this issue
I guess the alley won't be so lonely for me anymore.




My brother told me an interesting story about a bunch of Ironworkers he was with; building a multi-story parking garage next to an airport.

Everyone was making double digits per hour,
and as the job progressed raises were being handed out.
He said that as everyone reached and started to pass $20.00 and hour
a strange thing happened. People started moving slower. Doing less work.

He said it was like, now that they were finally being paid what they thought they were worth, they were no longer putting forth much effort.

The company went bankrupt when the parking garage was finally finished. Finished very late, long after schedule, and the quality of the top floors was not so good.

Later after a couple of years of running his own company he told me another strange thing.
He said if he paid his tower climbers too much, they would all do drugs and not show up for work.


All I'm saying with this thread,
is that I don't think money works they way we all think it is supposed to work.


David Grouchy

IF anything minimum wage should be raised again atleast another 2 dollars, its bullsh*t really, government spends our money like its nothing then they pay us crap if it hurts the business government should intervene and help them out...it is their job anyways to bail everyone out lol

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


And what do we do about the patents? Those are a great deal of why small businesses can't make certain things. I bet I could build an iphone or ipad from scratch but if anybody tries to do that you're looking at a major big lawsuit...by a corporation who has the money and time to go to court, I am not pro corportism, I am simply stating the facts as they are. I think you would have to end the patent office BS and let people use designs (and improve upon them) to have fair competition in a market where there is no min wage.

Ok, here is another couple of thoughts. Ok, lets say we repeal the minimum wage. So now employee A who was making like 8 bucks an hour is suddenly fired, so his employer can take advantage of no min wage and hire someone for 5 dollars an hour. So now that new employee has 3 dollars an hour less to spend. Multiply that by literally millions of people and that's millions of dollars that would have been spent on local economies that will now be going into a few bank accounts. Since most small companies are incorporated, that money saved will as a result mean less tax revenues for the government, less money for schools, roads education, etc. And lets face it, most of that money will just sit in the bank, and not circulate back into the economy. OK maybe here and there, you might see a little reinvestment, but the money wont diffuse into the economy the way it would if it were in the hands of thousands of people who will spend it in thousands of restaurants, stores, etc. Which brings up another gripe, the assertion that RAISING the minimum wage will cause calamity. Studies have shown the OPPOSITE is true, that raising minimum wage actually helps the economy. All lowering wages does if focus money into fewer and fewer hands. That's the problem we have now, does it need any more of a boost?

savvyconsumer.wordpress.com...



This article outlines why we should RAISE the minimum wage, not eliminate it.

reply to post by davidgrouchy


The best work I ever did was when I was hired at $10.50/hr job to start. It was a retail cashiering job, the only other $10.50/hr job I had I started at $8.25/hr at. so as I got raises my work improved (although they got less and less flattering on my my evaluations so that they could get away with not giving me more raises) that's when I quit that job. (there were a lot of other issues there, too, a lot of political BS) I guess it has to do with each person's work ethic, the way I look at it is, if I'm a being paid that much I better damn well do the work because I know I can still be replaced and it's a lot of money to lose, nobody is irreplaceable. People who do that are plain stupid. Raise in pay does not ensure a stable position. Some people get arrogant I guess, but I don't understand that line of thinking. Now pay me $3/hr...9/10ths of the day I am going to sit on my A$$ and probably be rude to customers too, because I will be struggling. And so what if I get fired from a $3/hr job? I can go on welfare and bring in more cash. Hell I know beggars in the streets making $100 a day.