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Originally posted by Openeye
Ok I have noticed a lot of people who say that they are libertarians on ATS so I decided this is an excellent place to ask some questions...since Ron Paul wont take my phone calls
I know libertarians are conservative economically, conservative on government, and progressive socially. But what else do true libertarians adhere to?
When one begins to see the State for what it is, a violent monopoly on violence and the redistribution of wealth, the idea of non-aggression makes it very hard to accept any form of government in all honesty
Also, a lot of libertarians I have heard speak are so anti-government that it seems they are advocating (IMO) the complete removal of the federal government, and in turn want to give all the power to the states. The idea does not seem totally unreasonable to me. However...wouldn't this be the destruction of the union and the advent of American nation states? Would the country at that point be alien in the eyes of the founders if they were to see it?
I welcome all out there to offer their insight.
When one begins to see the State for what it is, a violent monopoly on violence and the redistribution of wealth, the idea of non-aggression makes it very hard to accept any form of government in all honesty.
Originally posted by Openeye
reply to post by NuroSlam
I completely agree with non-aggression.
But would this not warrant a heavy reform of present government, rather than descending into anarchy?
If government could in fact function without the threat of violence and theft of property then yes.
I hope by Anarchy you are not referring to chaos as most do.
Originally posted by Skyfloating
It's natural enemies are socialism and fascism which both put Government before the individual.
Anarchism is stateless socialism, Mikhail Bakunin 1814-1876, anarcho-collectivist
Originally posted by ANOK
The problem I have with so called libertarians, should be NEO-libertarians as libertarian was originally a left wing term for Anarchism, is their support of capitalism.
Capitalism, the private ownership of the means of production, creates a hierarchy where the 'owners' basically lord over the workers. Your ability to survive is in the hands of capitalists, who have the monopoly on the means of producing what you need.
People used to live off the land, they didn't need someone to give them a 'job'. The capitalist system put people in factories, and took away the ability to survive without being subservient to capitalists, and relying on them for a 'job' and the needs of survival. That is not freedom, it is exploitation. Your labour is used to finance someone else.
what you describe is exactly what we have, labour unions and massive amounts of regulations allow the government to redistribute the wealth of the productive to the non productive.
Let's be real, not everyone can be a private owner, workers, those who have only their labour to sell will always be the majority. But now the capitalists are taking those 'jobs' away, leaving people with no way to fend for themselves. If the means of production were cooperatively owned by those who actually do the labour then the fruits of that labour would be more fairly distributed, and people could produce for their needs, as apposed to the greed of the 'private owner'.
The private owners cares nothing for their workers, all they want is max production for minimum pay out. This is why jobs are going to China, and India, leaving American workers unemployed. The Chinese are not benefiting from this, they get payed a dollar a day in crap work conditions, while capitalists take the profit. Billions in 'profits' going into less and less pockets, leaving the majority with nothing. The more capitalists centralize the economy the harder it becomes for the people to find a 'job'.
edit on 7/29/2011 by ANOK because: typo
Libertarian
Libertarians support maximum liberty in both personal and economic matters. They advocate a much smaller government; one that is limited to protecting individuals from coercion and violence. Libertarians tend to embrace individual responsibility, oppose government bureaucracy and taxes, promote private charity, tolerate diverse lifestyles, support the free market, and defend civil liberties.
Originally posted by NuroSlam
In all actuality, its about property rights more then capitalism. Imn very simple terms it boils down to who owns your body, and with that the fruits of the labor of that body.
If we did live in a true free market capitalist system and things were as they are I would agree with you, but we do not, we live in a mixed market system with government granted monopolies that allows the corporations do do what they are doing. A very nasty snowball effect has happened.
The blame for the lose of jobs should fall on the shoulders of those who have caused this to happen, unions demanding outrageous pay and benefits and regulations that make it near impossible to start a business that competes on any scale with the entrenched. I can say I have never met anyone who understands the Austrian school of economics who would want a centralised economy. The more an economy gets centralised the less innovative and productive it becomes.
Originally posted by ANOK
Socialism has nothing to do with government.
Originally posted by Openeye
reply to post by ANOK
I agree with a lot of what you have said. Capitalism to me is not an economic policy more than it is a political ideology.
I do not agree completely agree with socialism. I do however think there are social programs that work and are necessary for the human race. Free health care and free education.
Originally posted by Skyfloating
Originally posted by ANOK
Socialism has nothing to do with government.
Then who distributes the goods?
Originally posted by Skyfloating
Distilling Libertarianism down to its essence, recall the first settlers of America that came here a few hundred years ago. There was no bloated Government acting as a parent substitute. There were people who were free. And they got along just fine.