Stigmata, Why Only Among Catholic Believers?

Don't get me wrong, I am not anti-Catholic nor am I Catholic bashing. I am not Catholic and perhaps that may lend to the misunderstanding I have about Stigmata. As a Christian believer in a Protestant faith, there are many things that I don't understand about Catholics. That being said, it simply means I do not have experience to base any assumptions on and not being Catholic, I would not know what stigmata means to any Catholic person.

Stigmata reports began in the 13th Century. St. Francis of Assisi was the first recorded stigmatic.

www.catholic.org...

The wounds of the stigmata correspond with the 5 Sacred Wounds that Jesus received at His crucifixion.




There are several theories though

1 Delusion
2 Suggestive personality manifesting itself
3 Fraud

Clearly stigmata still occurs in the modern world and some people gravitate toward the phenomenon as though it were divine. Many people still believe that signs of Jesus Christ are appearing everywhere, including a Wal-Mart receipt.

www.kdvr.com...

Now I am a skeptical person, so my first question is why would Jesus present Himself to be found on a random receipt at a Wal-Mart especially at the time this particular couple were shopping? Suppose that couple went to a different line and they were replaced by someone else? Would that person be the benefactor of the said receipt? And the Wal-Mart receipt is interestingly upside down.

What I would like to point out here is that people will find what ever religious iconography they want if they look hard enough. People will find answers for their faiths, even if it means convincing other people to see what may not even be there. And this is the question I have about Stigmata, why only devout Catholics? All Christian churches are based in the same fundamental belief in the divinity of Jesus Christ. We differ on the role and function of The Blessed Mother and the Holy Saints.

As a Pentecostal believer, of which my family has been now for 6 generations, I can understand that people apply the same skepticism toward us as they do Catholics. We can say that within both faith systems there are those who are carried away into religious fervency, but manifesting in different ways. Hence, no Pentecostal person has ever presented Stigmata, but some Catholic people are Charismatic and speak in tongues, etc.

There are going to be people jump on this to attempt to "prove" their theories about the Bible being a myth as they see it, or using atheism to beat believers in the head.

Let's say they are delusional, then it would not stand to reason that the WITNESSES of the Stigmata, and not the Stigmatic themselves, would document the evidence. Even skeptical witnesses have been brought in to document it.

Let's say they are manifesting a deep religious fervency. Many religions have the people that are fervent, take the Philippines...men there begin Lent by a procession of flagellation throughout the streets.
www.catholicnewsagency.com...

Let's say they are committing fraud, which it has been proven there have been those who have indeed been found out. But not every case is passed off as fraud. This still does not answer the original statement, why only Catholics? I have never seen any Methodist minister suddenly burst out with bloody sweat, nor a Baptist preacher suddenly present wounds on his hands (his knuckles maybe from pounding on the pulpit). I have never seen a little old lady in the Pentecostal faith who jumped up in religious fervency with wounds on her side.

I will probably never understand why this is a Catholic phenomenon. But it reminds me of a Shakespeare quote "There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy".

Catholic=christian=follower of Jesus Christ
Isnt it amazing that this actually appears in the same spots that Jesus was nailed through and stabbed on the cross? And this has happened to more than just catholic christians.

Originally posted by Hillbilly123069
Catholic=christian=follower of Jesus Christ
Isnt it amazing that this actually appears in the same spots that Jesus was nailed through and stabbed on the cross? And this has happened to more than just catholic christians.

edit on 28-7-2011 by Hillbilly123069 because: (no reason given)

The only thing I have questioned is this....the wound in the side. The Bible does not specify which side He was stabbed in with the spear and Stigmatics are never uniform in that perspective. Some have it on the right and some on the left. I have never heard of it outside Catholicism. I will have to look into that.

reply to post by WarminIndy


Forgive me if this seems off topic, but I have always thought that maybe some of the "stigmata" claims were caused by flesh eating disease or other illnesses. Many religions especially Catholicism influence some of their follower's beliefs. Add a flesh eating like disease with someone who is already convinced that "stigmata" exists and the rest is obvious. Please keep in mind this is a loosely based theory on my behalf and I am not a firm believer in this theory, just a thought.

Catholics are notorious for letting their beliefs influence their perception of normal things. Seeing the Virgin Mary or Jesus Christ in a potato chip or a Wal-Mart receipt are just a couple examples

Originally posted by Hillbilly123069
Catholic=christian=follower of Jesus Christ
Isnt it amazing that this actually appears in the same spots that Jesus was nailed through and stabbed on the cross? And this has happened to more than just catholic christians.

edit on 28-7-2011 by Hillbilly123069 because: (no reason given)

Most stigmata cases show wounds in the hands, this is most likely an indication of fraud ... most crucifixions are done via the wrist.. ( rarely in history was it attempted through the palms ) ..

The roman crucifixions were through the wrists, archeology shows that.. I believe stigmata is self inflicted in each and every case ..

reply to post by Corruption Exposed


That could certainly be a possibility, but would a flesh eating disease also be contagious? And there were doctors who examined them.

A Sister Theresa Newman is in the Guiness Book of World Records for living the longest as a Stigmatic and she survived 35 years living on the Communion wafer and wine. She died in 1965, and was examined by doctors and the staff at Guinness World Records to verify inclusion in the book.

Originally posted by miniatus

Most stigmata cases show wounds in the hands, this is most likely an indication of fraud ... most crucifixions are done via the wrist.. ( rarely in history was it attempted through the palms ) ..

The roman crucifixions were through the wrists, archeology shows that.. I believe stigmata is self inflicted in each and every case ..

Absolutely
Every crucifix, every pic, every copy by a "saint" is in the palms.. when crucifictions were NEVER done in that manner. The nail would easily slip through the hand due to struggle... and more likely the weight of the body. Many times the arms were BOUND for a crucifixion in history, and there were NO nail holes.

reply to post by miniatus


Perhaps for Jesus, there may have been a uniqueness to His crucifixion. He does say to Thomas the Apostle "Put your finger in my hands and in my side", to which Thomas replied "My Lord and my God".

Psalm 22:16, which is believed to have been written by David, "For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet."

This verse was written long before the Romans even existed as a superpower. David was born 500 years before the first Roman Emperor, 1000 years before Jesus Christ. So it seems that the concept of piercing someone in the hands and feet as a means of Roman execution would be pretty prophetic. Or the Romans borrowed the concept from the Torah.

Originally posted by Advantage

Originally posted by miniatus

Many times the arms were BOUND for a crucifixion in history, and there were NO nail holes.

I think that nail holes would be hard to find in a body that has no flesh. We are talking about skeletons now.

I do get the idea that ropes were used. And if you are strapped tightly to a cross beam that supports your weight, then the pressure would not be as great on your hands.But I think it was only tight enough to keep the person from falling off, because a giant nail through the wrist would also not be enough support.

The purpose of the cross beam execution was so the victim would suffocate eventually.

reply to post by WarminIndy


It's more rational and rewarding to consider the whole group of anomalies initially as a collective category, where common denominators can be looked for.

What's already apparant to those being interested in such an approach, is that expectations, indoctrination, susceptibility etc have a notable expectation feed-back. A kind of 'spiritual' placebo effect.

Personally I don't doubt, that it's not 'all in the mind', but that something external in many cases is present in whatever anomaly happening. But mankind is notorious for gestalting the unknown into the known given half a chance.

Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

It's more rational and rewarding to consider the whole group of anomalies initially as a collective category, where common denominators can be looked for.

What's already apparant to those being interested in such an approach, is that expectations, indoctrination, susceptibility etc have a notable expectation feed-back. A kind of 'spiritual' placebo effect.

Personally I don't doubt, that it's not 'all in the mind', but that something external in many cases is present in whatever anomaly happening. But mankind is notorious for gestalting the unknown into the known given half a chance.

You used the reference Gestalt...as in Gestalt Psychology....where people see the whole before the individual parts.

I think Stigmata is still not collectively believed by all Catholics. But it is hard to find those outside of Catholicism to believe it. I certainly will not say it is all fraud because there may be very biological reasons. Perhaps a person can be so convinced in their mind that this is the Sacred Wound that it manifests itself.

There have been cases of people who exhibit extraordinary feats of strength due to adrenalin pumping throughout their bodies.

Trauma to bones is obvious in skeletal remains. Obviously there is no soft tissue damage you can view. It also wouldnt show the damage to soft tissue from ropes, but we absolutely know that this was part of the process. Ever skin a catfish with a nail in a tree? You'd not think the nail would hold that fish when youre using pliers to skin it with all of your strength.. but it does because the nail is placed behind a few small bones. If there were nails used in this instance, I find it very hard to believe that it was in the palms and deviated from every other recorded observation of a crucifixion. Ive always wondered if this also is a mistranslation ( palms) as so many other things have been.. IE burning BEARD rather than burning BUSH. I absolutely believe a leader named Jesus was crucified. Just my opinion, but I find it hard to believe that the man was held there magically along with the other two common criminals by single palm nails. In these magnificent paintings and etc.. seeing no wrist nails or rope or the common X is about as ludicrous as jesus constantly being shown as a blonde with blue eyes, when the descriptions in letters recorded with his description so he could be identified clearly describe him otherwise. But when these people see miraculous visions of Mary or Jesus.. they are always basically "whites" when we know for fact they werent.

Before what we see as modern Catholicism, no one experienced stigmata. I find it very odd as an outsider to Christianity that one would choose to center on these things related to death rather than center on what the mans message was or the risen god from the crucified man. But thats me.. worship of death and manners of death and calling it a religious experience is odd. Catholicism with all of its trappings has forever seemed to me a cult of death. Im old and was around before a new coat of paint was put on the catholic church for modern times. WHen I was a child I was horrified by my first visit to the cathedral.. a corp se hanging in all of its colored paint gory glory behind the priest who spoke no english things I could understand and we were to eat flesh and drink blood. It really does make one wonder... when one isnt raised in it so it seems common. To me, they worship a dead God.. hanging on some wood. Id thought they worshiped a risen God.. but the trappings of the cathedral make me think differently when seen with clean eyes. SO I guess from that its not a stretch that some would choose to show their piety by expressing a death.. stigmata.. rather than a resurrection... or risen and living God. As far as Im concerned its their religion.. have at it. Worship whatever you want. Some speak in tongues and some bleed from scary holes in the hands.. who cares. I just dont see it as a miracle by any means. At least they arent killing my folks of in holy righteous genocide ordained by God... anymore. The only miracle here is that they happened to lose just enough power that we arent executed for even questioning them and being labeled a heretic anymore.

suffocation? More like drowning. Thats why they broke the legs in a crucifixion, so the victim couldnt push up to expand the diaphragm. Thats also why the side was pierced.. to see if the person was dead from drowning.. the lungs fill with fluid.


Meh, just my opinions.. anyway. I hate expressing any thoughts on it on here because the rabid ones come out of the woodwork and go nutty in threads and in u2u..

reply to post by WarminIndy


You wrote:

["You used the reference Gestalt...as in Gestalt Psychology....where people see the whole before the individual parts."]

And sometimes they do percieve the individual parts, and structure them according to expectations. It's not a simple black/white situation, as 'filters' also play a part. But for present purposes: Yes to what you said.

Quote: ["I think Stigmata is still not collectively believed by all Catholics. But it is hard to find those outside of Catholicism to believe it."]

It's probably as unusual as for non-firewalker believers to walk unhurt over a fire, or for non-yogis to drink poison and survive.

Quote: ["I certainly will not say it is all fraud because there may be very biological reasons."]

Having a metaphysical position myself, with both theoretical and practical knowledge of anomalies, I too would hesitate to call it all frauds. The fraud-part starts, when a doctrinal 'explanation' is superimposed on the unknown mentally being structured into the known.

Quote: ["There have been cases of people who exhibit extraordinary feats of strength due to adrenalin pumping throughout their bodies."]

I don't question that. I once had a working colleague, who saved his son's life by lifting a heavy timber, 4 or 5 men couldn't have moved. Human feats outside the 'normal' can be surprising.

reply to post by WarminIndy


It is contagious, usually in people who have weak immune systems, but it is not limited to unhealthy people. As for the stigmata examples you have mentioned, many of them make a good case. I am open to all realms possibility. Hope it didn't seem like I was casting doubt on your claims. I just wanted to share some input.

Have a good day.

Originally posted by Corruption Exposed
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

It is contagious, usually in people who have weak immune systems, but it is not limited to unhealthy people. As for the stigmata examples you have mentioned, many of them make a good case. I am open to all realms possibility. Hope it didn't seem like I was casting doubt on your claims. I just wanted to share some input.

Have a good day.

You are ok and thank you for sharing input. This can be a very rational study of faith in modern times because much of what is believed about Christianity is from the Middle Ages. The beliefs about Christianity sometimes skewers views about what Christianity is really about.

I will agree that the Middle Ages were full of superstitious people, but there are those today who are superstitious. Stigmata first occurred in the Middle Ages, but I would be very hesitant to think St. Francis of Assisi was pulling a fraud when it came to his faith. He was the one who created the "God Grant me the serenity..." prayer that people still quote today. He healed animals and he even prayed "God make me an instrument of your peace".

The most recent famous priest to exhibit it was Padre Pio, which I think many people claim he was also some type of mystic. His is the first picture link I posted.

Whilst not giving a complete picture we could perhaps begin to gain an inkling with this article. I can only include the abstract because of the cost factors.

Summarizes a series of ongoing studies on the minor physical anomalies and hyperactivity in children. 82 hyperactive males and their siblings were surveyed for stigmata. The children's stigmata score had a significant positive relationship to reports of paternal hyperactivity. The present investigation supports the notion that minor anatomic anomalies are significant measures among behaviorally deviant children reflecting minor developmental defects of the CNS. The recognition of this group of children will not lessen the incidence of hyperactivity. However, it may serve to sharpen diagnostic efforts, alleviate unnecessary guilt feelings and thus potentially enable the identification of a specific drug-responsive subgroup. Follow-up data suggest that some adolescent offenders may have had restless, distractible symptoms similar to those of minimal brain dysfunction. (29 ref) (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2010 APA, all rights reserved)

Just could not help quoting it as a slightly tongue in cheek statement on my own views pertaining to the intellectual machinations of the religious mind.

yes sorry don't seem to be able to get the link working

Originally posted by goldentorch
Whilst not giving a complete picture we could perhaps begin to gain an inkling with this article. I can only include the abstract because of the cost factors.

psycnet.apa.org...

Summarizes a series of ongoing studies on the minor physical anomalies and hyperactivity in children. 82 hyperactive males and their siblings were surveyed for stigmata. The children's stigmata score had a significant positive relationship to reports of paternal hyperactivity. The present investigation supports the notion that minor anatomic anomalies are significant measures among behaviorally deviant children reflecting minor developmental defects of the CNS. The recognition of this group of children will not lessen the incidence of hyperactivity. However, it may serve to sharpen diagnostic efforts, alleviate unnecessary guilt feelings and thus potentially enable the identification of a specific drug-responsive subgroup. Follow-up data suggest that some adolescent offenders may have had restless, distractible symptoms similar to those of minimal brain dysfunction. (29 ref) (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2010 APA, all rights reserved)

Just could not help quoting it as a slightly tongue in cheek statement on my own views pertaining to the intellectual machinations of the religious mind.

That link takes us to a registration page.

reply to post by WarminIndy


It's the only link I seem to be able to get to work so i've taken it down. psycNET in google should get you there.

reply to post by WarminIndy


Hi Warmindy

Stigmata (from the Latin word: Stigma, 'mark' or 'brand'') is a peculiar form of 'psychosomatic-religious-hysteria' - often occuring in 'highly religious' (or 'superstitious') persons with the (comparatively) rare ability to project marks on to their body which sometimes do in fact bleed their own real human blood.

But 'Christian stigmatist-hysterics' have one defining characteristic which shows their mis-placed palm-wound symptoms are actually being created out of their own hysteric mind: the wounds on their bodies do not reflect the wrist-wounds of 1st century armed-seditionists who were routinely cruficied in breach of Lex Maiestatis (the so-called 'No King but Caesar' Law)

The fact that 1st century Galilean armed-seditionsits against Rome [see the 3rd canonical Greek gospel, 'according to Luke' whoever he was) chapter 22:35ff] were generally crucified with long metal spikes through the WRISTS (and not through the palms of the hands, where the stigmatists believe the wounds existed) shows that the actual perceived effect on the flesh 'is pschyo-somatic' in other words, produced by an hysteric who is quite able to project any wounds (and as deep as) he wants to on to his/her body.

If you told any of these religious manic-hysterics (the majority have a deep emotional bond to their own particular religious beliefs) that R. Yehoshua bar Yosef (the Galilean Nazir, c. BCE 12 to 36 CE) aka (Gk.) 'Iesous' was crucified through his elbow, they would have darkened 'bleeding elbow stigmata spots rather than their more common palm imprints....

Clear as mud?

reply to post by WarminIndy


Here's the google link

Although it was tongue in cheek the percieved link I quoted the article for comes from the idea that the production of noreprinephrine is altered in such persons and the effect upon the heart and circulation could be seen as a causation in any manifestation of religous stigmata. There are also cortical stigmata with, obviously, effects upon the central nervous systems. So one could take the word stigmata to it's fullest extent and begin to form a basis for the religous manifestations of physiological phenomana.