You are not the body. (Materialists welcome to debate)

Here are some questions to think about which would indicate that you are spirit (immaterial) as opposed to material body.

1. If you were the body, how is it that you control the body? A rock is a rock, but it does not control itself. How can you, being fully body, exert control atop of body? If this is impossible, would that not prove your will is immaterial?

2. If the heart is the main material center of the body's movements, then the remaining body parts are part of the system that is generated by the heart. In this process of different parts, which part is the 'you'? How can you be aware of all parts of the body through pain, and yet not be any of those individual parts, but still you are somehow a material body?

3. If you have memory of an event that happened in the past, and the past is no longer present, how is that possible unless the memory was connected to an immaterial existent (which does not pass like time)? If you have memory of childhood or even a few minutes in the past, is that not proof your memory is beyond your body?

4. If you are capable of solving math problems, or calculating how long a trip will take, how can you do this unless you were all those things? The roads, the car, the earth? Is the fact that conceptual thought exists proof that we have a rational power over the material world (and not just a part or the entire material world)?

5. If nature creates an endless array of diversity, and if there were no central law of nature, this diversity would be so chaotic that nothing could be discerned from anything else. You could not speak of general things, only of particulars, and those particulars would be so unlike everything else that there would be no discernible shape anything would share with each other. The fact that there are recurring patterns is proof that forms of things transcend the present. If everything were material and composed of atoms, how would this be possible for one form to resemble a 'dog' if 'dogness' does not exist because the only thing that exists is atoms and dogness is an abstract concept. But how can there be abstract concepts if all things are atomic?

There may be more, but that's good enough for now.

But if I was to crush the body under 100 tons of force, you could not do any of the things listed.

The reason we are able to control our body, because of our brain and our mind. Rocks dont have a brain..

Every single answer to your statements come from the brain. The brain does everything, it holds everything, which include the conscious mind and the sub conscious mind. thi stuff is common sense lol

Originally posted by eddy2258
The reason we are able to control our body, because of our brain and our mind. Rocks dont have a brain..

Every single answer to your statements come from the brain. The brain does everything, it holds everything, which include the conscious mind and the sub conscious mind. thi stuff is common sense lol

edit on 26-7-2011 by eddy2258 because: (no reason given)

the mind is immaterial. Where is the mind? How does the brain transmit an image and who sees it? How can a material part of the body view an immaterial mental image? It can't. That proves the mind is immaterial.

Originally posted by Lysergic
But if I was to crush the body under 100 tons of force, you could not do any of the things listed.

The Self can not be crushed, which is why it is better to be the Self than to be the body. When the body can no longer hold the spirit, the spirit goes away. The spirit keeps the body alive, the body requires constant attention, what does it keep alive?

DNA is merely the blueprint of the interface to house a 4th dimensional consciousness or soul in the physical mass based 3rd dimension.

reply to post by filosophia


1. Sentience. A rock is not a sentient creature. A human being has sentience. Sentience allows for awareness of the self. Awareness of the self permits reflection (mental and otherwise). By being self-aware and sentient a human being is able to utilize it's brain to operate the various nerves and muscles which are all interconnected. By operating these, the human can command it's limbs to move in any number of ways. Mobility does not require spirit to be possible.

Response question for you: if spirit is the device of mobility, how do you explain the maimed, the paraplegic, the numb, and those who were born with useless limbs? If spirit is really immaterial, how is it that limbs and functionality can be impaired? Surely if spirit is the mobile aspect, it too must be material for it to be damaged.



2. For starters, the "center" of awareness is actually the brain. The heart is simply a muscle which keeps oxygenated, and non-oxygenated blood flowing in continuous motion so that you may breathe. It is the brain, and the system of synapses and nerves it connects to, which allow for conscious awareness of pain. The personality, and ego, are all a part of the brain's intense mechanics. Granted, the methods and means of the brain are not entirely understood at this time, we do recognize that they are subject to the body, and can be altered by tampering with the brain. So, again, it is not about material vs. immaterial. Only about understanding how the brain functions.

Response question for you: Congenital Analgesia is a disorder/disease in which the applicant is completely indifferent, or insensitive to pain. Meaning, they cannot feel physical stimulus of either painful or pleasurable measures. If spirit is the vehicle for sensation awareness, do people who suffer from this disease simply have no spirit at all? Are they empty vessels?



3. This one is a bit more complex than I think you recognize. Again, however, it is the brain which is responsible for this. There are two types of memory: long term, and short term. Long term memories are based upon repeated actions. Learning to speak, remembering peoples' names, how to drive, how to cook; all of these things are continuously repeated actions. By repetition the mind learns how to complete tasks. Short term memory is the opposite. The brain recollects information for short periods of time, unless it is recorded and further studied. For instance, if I gave you a combination of number, say: 26, 14, 3, 9, 87, 53 and told you to repeat them to me in a day, without looking at them or thinking about them, your memory would fail to recite them. If I did the same thing, and allowed you to study them as often as you pleased, you would suddenly be able to do it. Repetition is the device which allows the brain to do this.

Response question for you: video-recording, computer memory RAM, pictures, written words and books. Do all of these things have their own spirit, because they also recall events which have already occurred. So, if my ability to remember my last party is proof of spirit, then my cameras pictures of the last party are proof as well of it's own spirit, yes?



4. This one goes back to # 1 and our ability to recognize ourselves. Self-awareness allows us to advance our biology, allowing for bigger brains, more thought-recognition, and things of a like nature. Our ability to solve math problems, like speaking, and association exercises is not limited to us: gorillas, parrots, dolphins and other animals are also able to do all of that. As for plotting a destination: consider a bird's migratory path, a dog's ability to find it's way home, or a cat's sense of spatial awareness. All of these other non-human species are capable of what we are (to an extent). The brain. It all comes back down to the brain.

Response question for you: flora and fauna. Vines grow up trees, tress grow in, around, and through any object in their path. Are these signs of a spirit? Does an immobile, unfeeling, non-thinking tree have a spirit like a human's spirit? What about plants which do the same thing?



5. Specification. A human copulating with another human will not produce a dog, because of genetics. Atoms have nothing to do with the form something takes. Genetics do. DNA, the double helix. Atoms are simply the building blocks of all form, much like the old Lego sets. Even though the possibilities seem endless, Lego blocks can only be put together certain ways. Take a rectangle Lego, and it's mirror and only a small number of "new" shapes are possible: a thicker rectangle, a longer rectangle, a taller rectangle, or a small "step" set. Birth and genetics work a similar way. Human DNA is the rectangle Lego. Only a small number of creations may come from it's reconstitution.

Additionally, you are getting into semantics and logic here. By associating the term "dog" with a dog we are in no way limiting it's potential. You may call a dog a kangaroo if it pleases you. Common terminology is simply a way for all humans to categorize and recognize specific features a creature possesses. A canine (dog) for instance, has powerful canine teeth, long snout, and certain advanced senses. All animals possessing these traits (among others) are considered "dogs" of some kind. Same with humans. All humans possess similar characteristics the world over, while minute differences (height, weight, build, skin tone, eye placement, etc) differentiate us. Simply put: it is evolution, diversification, and survival of the fittest (most dominant genetic traits) which cause this. Not spirit.

I've got no return-question for this one.

~ Wandering Scribe

reply to post by Wandering Scribe


Spirit is different from body, just because a limb can be deformed does not mean the spirit can be deformed. The spirit creates through karma which brings in an imperfection. Body is the deformed spirit.

reply to post by Wandering Scribe


Your question about not having any sentience because of some type of disease, drugs can do this but only for a short time, if this disease was permanent how does it differ from death? The spirit can ignore the body on its own without drugs or disease through meditation and it obtains the inner consciousness which is beyond sentience.

reply to post by Wandering Scribe


3. A camera and the spirit are very similar. A camera captures a present landscape and sound, the spirit captures the present moment. Does a camera capture smell? Or touch? Or love and hate? No, obviously then a camera is inferior to spirit, because it lacks these, it does not contain everything life can offer. Even if it did, the spirit is still superior because it does not require a computer to play back the message or video, the spirit is one part, whereas a camera needs a television to play back (as well as a memory card, electricity, an audience, etc).

reply to post by Wandering Scribe


4. Vines are an example of vegetative growth. They have vegetative life in that they grow (vegetate) and expand due to outside influence (sun, rain, earth, wind, also pollination). Vegetation is the lowest living life, it has no consciousness (like animals) and no intellect like humans. The order is

Vegetation - no consciousness
Animals - consciousness
Humans - the highest intellectually (but not necessarily vegetatively).

A plant can regrow limbs, a tree can live hundreds of years, a human's body is brittle, but they have intellect. This means everything in nature has a positive and negative to it. A fly is quick and defies gravity, but can be easily crushed, an elephant is strong but moves slowly. A human has a mind but can use it for self-torment.

This is so because everything has spirit, although in different modes. So a vine growing on a tree has a powerful instinct for survival but not for doing math problems.

Originally posted by SyntaxConspiracy
DNA is merely the blueprint of the interface to house a 4th dimensional consciousness or soul in the physical mass based 3rd dimension.

edit on 26-7-2011 by SyntaxConspiracy because: (no reason given)

edit on 26-7-2011 by SyntaxConspiracy because: (no reason given)

edit on 26-7-2011 by SyntaxConspiracy because: (no reason given)

agreed. I would only add that DNA is karma, the present actuality of past actions. The ideal which all things emulate based upon their specific stage of evolutionary life.

Originally posted by filosophia

Originally posted by Lysergic
But if I was to crush the body under 100 tons of force, you could not do any of the things listed.

The Self can not be crushed, which is why it is better to be the Self than to be the body. When the body can no longer hold the spirit, the spirit goes away. The spirit keeps the body alive, the body requires constant attention, what does it keep alive?

Even those that are brain dead?

notice how your disagreeing with his examples and finding everything wrong in them, but your first example was a rock..

reply to post by filosophia

the mind is immaterial.

The brain is material, the electrical signals that form the "mind" are, in a sense, immaterial. Think of the brain like a biological computer. Electricity is what makes a computer work, its what makes our mind work, but you wouldn't accuse the computer you typed your OP on of having a soul would you?

If you were the body, how is it that you control the body?

Current research into neuroscience suggests that the human mind makes a decision before it becomes consciously aware of that decision. Free Will in the classic sense appears to be an illusion.

How can you be aware of all parts of the body through pain, and yet not be any of those individual parts, but still you are somehow a material body?

2. The self-identity most people have is their emotions, memories, experiences, attitudes, and opinions. Thus far the science seems to suggest that consciousness is an emergent property of the brain. So all of this is contained in the brain. YOU are your brain, your brain is part of your body and is dependent upon the rest of your body for survival.

is that not proof your memory is beyond your body?

3. No it isn't. Memories are stored in the brain, which is part of the body.

4. Not at all sure what you're talking about here.

and if there were no central law of nature, this diversity would be so chaotic that nothing could be discerned from anything else.

5. The laws of nature aren't actual laws, they are merely descriptions of how things are observed to behave. The Universe behaves in a certain way and the fundamental forces that "govern" it are what prevent the kind of chaos you are describing.

If everything were material and composed of atoms, how would this be possible for one form to resemble a 'dog' if 'dogness' does not exist because the only thing that exists is atoms and dogness is an abstract concept.

Gobbledygook. Dog is a descriptive adjective used to describe a certain kind of animal with certain characteristics. There is a decided upon definition of the word that stems from its use to describe only those kinds of animals. How is it possible for atoms to resemble a Dog? Well first life evolved, mammals evoled, then caniforms evolved, then mankind domesticated what we know as dogs. And at some point we started using the word dog to refer to animals with those characteristics.

Originally posted by filosophia
Here are some questions to think about which would indicate that you are spirit (immaterial) as opposed to material body.

1. If you were the body, how is it that you control the body? A rock is a rock, but it does not control itself. How can you, being fully body, exert control atop of body? If this is impossible, would that not prove your will is immaterial?

There is good proof of this. I'll give you $20 in the mail if you can tell me one thing that a person can do besides move the body and/or use consciousness. It's all done for us. We don't activate the rods and cones in the eyes. We don't make our hair grow. We don't make the sun hot or the earth rotate. We don't do jack. We think and we move. Apart from those two, it's all done for us. Anyone who can stand in the face of this reality and pretend that something intelligent is not responsible for the endless chain of events that causes our consciousness to reside in the body is somewhat deluded. Like you say, we are not our body. We are the essence of information that comprises our body to form.

After you settle on the $20 that won't be coming your way, consider this: Do we have free will? Do we make a choice that is not answered by the laws of nature? Can any of us do anything that isn't already answered by the action reaction of the universe? Can the universe be tricked? Again, God is the governor of the laws. Our only act of free will is conscious belief in the originator of the laws or our own pride. Pride says that we can be higher in some degree than God by our free will. In reality, we are merely along for the ride.

"The oak tree is enfolded into the acorn. If it gains union with the soil around it, it unfolds by design to become the mighty oak. At our essence, we are the information of our designer. We express this body by this essence to form. The essence can be saved or lost. As you look out across the ocean of reality, realize that you are only seeing the surface and the waves. You must dive deep to see what is hidden in the depths. " LINK

reply to post by SuperiorEd

We don't activate the rods and cones in the eyes. We don't make our hair grow. We don't make the sun hot or the earth rotate. We don't do jack. We think and we move.

So you define the self as conscious attention and action? It is not you making your hair grow, it is your subconscious which is something other than you? Are you breathing or are you being breathed, or both? When you learn a new task (such as how to swing a golf club) and after practice that task begins to be controlled by subconscious muscle memory rather than completely by conscious effort, is that no longer you performing the task? Your conscious effort has little to do with controlling your steps as you walk. Are you just being walked or are you walking?

Apart from those two, it's all done for us.

By who? Is there a separate entity growing your hair for you?

You are beating your heart, your conscious attention just doesn't have control over it. It is a result of the wiring in your brain. Your brain is the result of evolution. The physical matter making up your body comes from the rest of the universe and will return to the rest of the universe. Therefore the self can only (but not merely) be defined as the entire universe. The human being is something the universe is doing. You are doing all of it. There is no separate entity which belongs to each human being that is able to experience the universe independently of the brain. If there is a "soul" inside our bodies that is able to see, hear, feel, make decisions, etc then what is the point of the brain?

reply to post by filosophia

is that not proof your memory is beyond your body?

Memory is stored in the brain much like a movie is stored on a DVD. This is proven by the fact that memories are sometimes lost if the brain is damaged.

Again, your consciousness has nothing to do with the running of the bio-mechanical suit it wears. You move the suit and you choose. The suit can be taught to mediate thought, as with a golf swing. This is the soul learning. The soul is the connecting point of the spirit and the body. It's like a modem by comparison. Information is the key to changing the soul (Self). When we bring the soul and the mind (consciousness) into unity with the law (love God and love others), our future actions create the image of our past as equal reflections. Our actions produce an agreement with our past. Sin and unrighteousness reflect future and past unequally by duplicity. This creates a dissonance between the two. We correct this by changing our past by moving new choices into the future. This is called mastery. If we cannot show mastery over the law, it masters us. This is the extent of what we can do as humans.

That $20 form my last post is available if anyone can demonstrate something that they do other than make choices with consciousness and move the body.

Originally posted by DrinkYourDrug
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

We don't activate the rods and cones in the eyes. We don't make our hair grow. We don't make the sun hot or the earth rotate. We don't do jack. We think and we move.

So you define the self as conscious attention and action? It is not you making your hair grow, it is your subconscious which is something other than you? Are you breathing or are you being breathed, or both? When you learn a new task (such as how to swing a golf club) and after practice that task begins to be controlled by subconscious muscle memory rather than completely by conscious effort, is that no longer you performing the task? Your conscious effort has little to do with controlling your steps as you walk. Are you just being walked or are you walking?

Apart from those two, it's all done for us.

By who? Is there a separate entity growing your hair for you?

You are beating your heart, your conscious attention just doesn't have control over it. It is a result of the wiring in your brain. Your brain is the result of evolution. The physical matter making up your body comes from the rest of the universe and will return to the rest of the universe. Therefore the self can only (but not merely) be defined as the entire universe. The human being is something the universe is doing. You are doing all of it. There is no separate entity which belongs to each human being that is able to experience the universe independently of the brain. If there is a "soul" inside our bodies that is able to see, hear, feel, make decisions, etc then what is the point of the brain?

reply to post by filosophia

 

is that not proof your memory is beyond your body?

Memory is stored in the brain much like a movie is stored on a DVD. This is proven by the fact that memories are sometimes lost if the brain is damaged.

edit on 26-7-2011 by DrinkYourDrug because: (no reason given)

Originally posted by Lysergic
But if I was to crush the body under 100 tons of force, you could not do any of the things listed.

Not necessarily, there's nothing to say he wouldn't still be doing those things on another body, on another plane. Only you have destroyed all of the bodies functioning processes, so he can no longer controll those processes. There's nothing to controll. He has merely lost the talisman connecting his will to this world.

I'm just gonna go ahead and mention Phineas Gage. Gage lived during the 19th century and was the foreman for a railroad construction company. One day an accident occurred and a large iron rod was sent through Gage's head. Amazingly, Gage survived his accident, but suffered extensive damage to his left frontal lobe. After spending some time recuperating Gage seemed to be physically normal, but his entire personality had changed. Where there was once a well-respected even-tempered man there was now a loud, rash, quick to anger man who was prone to indulge "in the grossest profanity." This demonstrates that an entire person's Self can be changed due to brain damage. The logical conclusion then is that consciousness is an emergent property of the brain. If the Mind is separate from the Brain it would be subservient to the Brain making any differentiation between a Materialistic and Dualistic universe pointless.