Islam and the reformation...

[response to last comment on 'Living in Europe ' thread.. somehow it began a new thread...oops]


If you look at how Christians were getting on before Martun Luther, Kalvin etc... you will see that the same 'faith conqouring the infidel' crap that many extremist muslims are now ranting today. Crusading wasnt exactly the pinnicle of Jesus taught forgiveness or tolerance, nor was the inquisition. Im not a Christain my self (born a yid for my sins) but I do appreciate the postive message of forgiveness and tolerance'jesus' was said to have spread...

my point is that Islam never had a major reformation like Christianity in the west... so it is easy to point at them and say 'ohh.. their religion says kill all the white man' because of many unalanaylised parts of the Koran and other clerical teachings. #! If people wanted, they could go through the whole Bible and find:

a> some pretty anti-semetic jazz (funny.. didnt we write half of it???)
b> some REALLY gender oppressive teaching
c> many conflicting teachings on forgiveness/smiting ones foes

as a result of colonialsim(not in the Koran) we in Europe have had large swathes of muslims assimilate into European society (to a certain extent), and they largely havent been waging Jihad! And before this Arab/Israeli debacle, many Muslim terrirtories were largely regarded as the most tolerant for Jewish people to live in (and was like that since before the crusades)... so

people in glass relgions shouldnt throw stones

[edit on 15-8-2004 by Qoelet]

[edit on 15-8-2004 by Qoelet]

There are those within the Muslim religion whom are striving reformation.

www.muslim-refusenik.com...

Her most famus book is The Truble With Islam


[edit on C:Sunocu08e8 by Opus]

And before this Arab/Israeli debacle, many Muslim terrirtories were largely regarded as the most tolerant for Jewish people to live in (and was like that since before the crusades)

That's probably an exaggeration. There were Arab pogroms in the 20th century, before the establishment of Israel, and many prominent Arab Islamic leaders eagerly allied themselves with the Nazis because of their virulent anti-Jewish ideology. One of them was the Grand Mufti of Cairo (almost like the Pope, but there is no single heirarchical structure.). He had an nephew who later had a career of some renown. Know who?

It was probably better for Jews up until the 17 or 18th centuries. Remember this is relative, and it wasn't as if the positions were equal to Muslims in the Ottoman empire or that they had equal "civil rights" (the concept itself was a Western Enlightnment idea).


Quiz answer: he is known today popularly as Yasser Arafat, the (Egyptian!) capo of the Palestinian Liberation Organization.

Originally posted by Opus
There are those within the Muslim religion whom are striving reformation.

www.muslim-refusenik.com...

Her most famus book is The Truble With Islam


[edit on C:Sunocu08e8 by Opus]

Interesting site.

Also, one should not forget the ALREADY VERY REFORMED Islam in Bosnia. They are often ignored when talking about Islam.

Indeed there is great need of an Islamic Reformation.

Here's the problem. The Protestant Reformation fought against the current political hierarchy and church and state powers, and promoted greater and more clear adherence to the precepts contained in the original text, and promoted individual interpretation thereof, not limited only to some elite "masters", who were supposed to interpret it in a way for their own best political interests.

The original text of the bible does not promote crusades and war for Christians. Even for the Jews the wars were described mostly as historical fact and not ongoing continuous commandments. The hebrew bible described many actions of people with full knowledge and intent to show their flaws and the reality, not necessarily promoting them as ideal.

The Koran is different. Mohammed was a successful military conqueror, and the difference is that Muslim (men) are promoted Mohammed as a role model. Jesus and Moses didn't raze any villages of Jews---but Mohammed did.

The strain of Islam most acceptable to the west are the Sufis, who adhere to Koran less, not more literally. But they're sort of regarded as heretics.

One can argue that, in fact, there has been an Islamic Reformation with the intellectual form of the Christian one: rejection of existing authority and personal interpretation and piousness. And Islam's Martin Luther? Osama bin Laden.

mbkennel, I disagree.
Koran is not the problem. As I have stated, Muslims in Bosnia read the same Koran and are not in any way extremist, quite the contrary, they are the only peaceful balkan nation who has suffered genocide because they REFUSED to be extremists.
The problem are tribal laws, hadiths and sharia, a set of largely tribal laws based on hadith, word of men not God. Sharia was never implemented in Bosnia, it was never an official state law, so they are much different then Muslims in arab countries.
Also, Koran is NOT a book about Mohammad and his life, I suggest you read it, might give you some insight into what Islam really is.

In biblical terms God fought the Devil. The Devil won. The Devil created Islam

Originally posted by crossfire
In biblical terms God fought the Devil. The Devil won. The Devil created Islam

Thats abit extreme
Islam is a peaceful religion, i have numerous friends who are muslims and their religion doesn't seem the work of the devil to me.

As I happen not to believe in God - I was trying to contextualise it in religious terms. If you believe in God - broadly a serene entity that preaches love and care - then Christianity AS IT IS MANIFESTED TODAY (and Buddism I expect) meets that ideal.

If you believe in God, presumably you believe in the Devil. The manifestation of the devil - evil - death, intoleranace, hatred and murder is ISLAM AS IT IS MANIFESTED TODAY. I care not what the Holy Bible or the Koran says - I care what its adherents do. And everywhere I look Islam is causing death and destruction. Islam is the biblical manifestation of the Devil on earth.

Originally posted by mbkennel

The original text of the bible does not promote crusades and war for Christians....

The Koran is different. Mohammed was a successful military conqueror, and the difference is that Muslim (men) are promoted Mohammed as a role model. Jesus and Moses didn't raze any villages of Jews---but Mohammed did.

... And Islam's Martin Luther? Osama bin Laden.

Well, while comparisons with the reformation are indeed porblematic, in Islam, I feel the break could largely lie in the dissemination of the religion with the regional (and often quite collective) traditions of the cultures which have historically embraced Islam... but perhaps Im wrong...

Of course the bible doesnt promote crusades.. the point is more that the establishment of the Christian religion and its 'geopolitical' (for want of a better word) applications involved just the same kind of warmongering hacknslash both in Europe (Charlemagne.. great chap... isnt it?) and abroad... doesnt make the religion evil. The Koran does follow the central precept of conversion, and the establishment of monothesiem in the middle east did have a major military element.. but there is plently of smiting in the bible... and forced Christian conversion had been a recurrent theme of the last god knows how long (100s & 100s of years) from Verden, Lower Saxony to South East Asia.... whether its in the bible or not...



Osama as a reformation figure???? What kind of b llox is that???? He was just some stupid rich kid who's flouncing around the Soviet-Afghan war waving his money around became a way of life (thanks to the Pakistani secret service.. working for the CIA), all the religious stuff is a half baked Whabi spiel, which is catch all enough to include regional Islamic terror outfits (which are usually fighting for LOCAL inter-communial, post-colonial or septratist interests of one form or another.. not international Jihad) which are in turn easy to fund remotely... quite clever... not major theological transformation/revision/dialectic/whatever...

Crossfire.. u live in High Wycome or suttin?

nuff said.

With all this talk of all conquering Islam.. I bet if you go to some real Bible belt groove in the US and asked 1000 people 'Would the world be better if you could everybody a Christian, whether they liked it or not?' what does anybody honestly think they would all say? And if many think that it would be a good idea.. does that make the religion evil???

1000 Utah Saints may think that the world would be a better place if everyone was a Christian - but they don't do anything about it.

Islam preaches expansion - fascism and intolerance - economic, sexual and social - and it is doing something about it!

Originally posted by paperclip
The problem are tribal laws, hadiths and sharia, a set of largely tribal laws based on hadith, word of men not God. Sharia was never implemented in Bosnia, it was never an official state law, so they are much different then Muslims in arab countries.

Do most Arab muslims believe that Sharia is part of the Koran/goes hand in hand with the Koran/or strictly cultural?

My two cents on the matter is Christian and even Jewish religions have reformed and mainstreamed out of necessity. It was do or die out. While there are minorities in both groups that refuse to change and adhere to older teachings (see Mel Gibson), the vast majority saw mainstreaming as a good thing. Islam may just be going through its own growing pains as well. It's just too bad that a moderate unifying voice can't be found to save it.

*sigh*

Forcible Christian conversion and cultural assimilation kinda was only out of vogue from last century... but hey

Well I dont know what to say..i have seen the kinda reactionary home counties kinda stuff you have been posting over the last couple of days (im new to this board too by the way) and figure that there is no point trying to put home the point you're missin. So I'll just put my nose in the air and scoff


*scoff scoff*


Q

[edit on 15-8-2004 by Qoelet]

Originally posted by infinite

Originally posted by crossfire
In biblical terms God fought the Devil. The Devil won. The Devil created Islam

Thats abit extreme

Islam is a peaceful religion, i have numerous friends who are muslims and their religion doesn't seem the work of the devil to me.

While I don't pretend to be an expert on Islam, what I do know about it (from my own research and reading) is that it is a relatively violent religion. I do agree, however, that there are peace-loving Muslims. But my question is: Are they peace-loving BECAUSE of or IN SPITE of Islam. I believe it's the latter. In fact, Wahabbiism follows the literal and correct teachings of the Kuran and of course, you should know that the Taliban and Al Qaeda (sp) practice Wahabbiism.

Wow,

Lot's of information.

Some thoughts from history.

Muhammed took Messina by force when they city elders would not convert to the prophets teachings. This is as recorded by arab historians.

The spread of Islam through Asia minor and Northern Africa and Spain was not done peacefully, much like the European colonialization of the New World.

Jews were tolerated through the Muslim world, as were some Christians, provided they pay taxes. Muslims paid much lower tax rates. They were also not allowed to participate in any mainstream form of society.

When Constantinople fell, the military expansion of Islam resumed in the form of the Ottoman Empire. Children from Christian families (boys of 5) were forced from their homes and placed into the Jannisary Corps, trained to be the Sultans personal body guards. Again, heavliy taxed, and not protected under the law, the Christians and Jews were allowed to practice their religion.

Things turned sour with the Palestine Mandate, following WWI, and the rise of the Nazi party and its 'taking' to the Arabs the protcols of zion.

As far as labeling Mel Gibson someone who adheres to "old Teachings", and representing a threatened faith, nothing could be further from true. mainstreaming to conform to society has to do with expanding church rosters, and making more money, nothing to do with good Theology. Orthodox Judaisim managed quite well through exile and expulsion, progrom and the rest. The reformation was not about mainstreaming, it was about returning to scripture. (If one reads the thesis posted by Martin Luther) now that is NOT a liberal move.

Thanks

While I don't pretend to be an expert on Islam, what I do know about it (from my own research and reading) is that it is a relatively violent religion.

what the hell is a 'relatively violent religion'???????

There is a lot of good stuff in the Koran... as well as *rubbish*.. much like the Bible n Torah... thats religion. After IRA bombed in the 6 counties and the UK mainland, killing hundreds, did people blame Catholicism? No.. they recognised the political situation... (or simply blindly hated Irish catholics.. not the religion at large). True, Osama n chums emphasise their 'relgious devotion' and the supposedly 'God given' objectives, but you can see largely political (if not largely irrational) reasons behind all this. Its just not as straightforward as simply hating the Reds like the good old days... so people look (ironically) to the Koran for simple answers... 'they hate us cos we is Christian.. innit'

religion and politics... isnt it?

goodnite

Q

[edit on 15-8-2004 by Qoelet]

Originally posted by crossfire
As I happen not to believe in God - I was trying to contextualise it in religious terms. If you believe in God - broadly a serene entity that preaches love and care - then Christianity AS IT IS MANIFESTED TODAY (and Buddism I expect) meets that ideal.

If you believe in God, presumably you believe in the Devil. The manifestation of the devil - evil - death, intoleranace, hatred and murder is ISLAM AS IT IS MANIFESTED TODAY. I care not what the Holy Bible or the Koran says - I care what its adherents do. And everywhere I look Islam is causing death and destruction. Islam is the biblical manifestation of the Devil on earth.

I believe in God. Not a Christian God, maybe, but I still believe in God. I believe in the Hindu BrahmaN (different from Brahma, the Hindu creator god, who is an EXPANSION of BrahmaN). I do not believe in the Devil. I believe all religions were created by God. Some have less truth in it than others, though.

Hinduism and Buddhism are primarily peaceful and tolerant religions. But certain Hindus in India are starting to become more militant after millennia of subjugation by either Christians or Muslims.

Both Islam and Christianity have hurt India, primarily in villages where many people are forcefully or fraudulently converted to Islam or Christianity.

Not all Christians everywhere express the ideals of love and care. For both Islam and Christianity, it has become a competition to convert the most people to their faith.

Originally posted by Qoelet

While I don't pretend to be an expert on Islam, what I do know about it (from my own research and reading) is that it is a relatively violent religion.

what the hell is a 'relatively violent religion'???????

Historically speaking Islam is violent relative to other religions. The Kuran specifically instructs the murder of "non-believers" by "smiting of the neck" (beheading). There are many other passages such as this. Mohamed throughout the history of his life murdered relentlessy if people didn't follow the teachings of the Kuran. While there is violence in other religions, this violence isn't specific instructed in the Bible. I just basically states your going to burn in hell

While I dont have time to spiel all about old and new testament 'iffyness' vis-a-vis 'groovyness', for anyone who is interested.. here is a webpage I found, which while a bit funky, outlines some of the religiously intolerant bits of the bible.


www.religioustolerance.org...

Now dont just believe what the dude reckons.. but read the quotes and see what you think. And remember that there is little progression between calling something 'dark, unclean, creation of demons' and talk of choppin up infidels... if you have strong enough... err faith I guess... you will take what you want from this jazz and act accordingly. My christian friends dont see me as a creation of evil spirits.. but they still read the bible.. and while I got in a barfight once with a bunch of chechens.. they didnt behead me.. (lucky me.. although I got pretty whipped).. and if they had.. it would probably be for some mountaingoat herding ritualism rather than coz the Koran.

good stuff... bad stuff... good stuff.. bad stuff...

okay now I gotta go bed...

Q

To the original poster, the war is not about "kill the white man" it has absolutly nothing to do with skin tone. Me for one am half iranian and when not int he sun and tanning during the winter am just about the same skin colour as most, i do though have dark hair and eyes and dark body hair (and im only 15). This war is also in most cases less about religon, it is more against the western world, one of the hostages the iraqis had taken (actually i think it was 2) where all Arab Muslims (american Arabs) serving in the U.S army, they are more concerned with what part of the land you where born on then what colour your skin is. Religon does play part in it, just not as much as the country you come from, they do in most cases dislike christians but they absolutly hate jews.