The Norway massacre and the question nobody cares to ask

reply to post by Terrorist


Except for crimes against humanity which can add 10 years on 21. Plus if Høyesterett decides that he/she can be threat for people,can add 10 years.

reply to post by bjarneorn


In a long time i havent read better post on internet!
U got an standing aplause from me man!!!

The mayor of Oslo:“We shall punish the terrorist, and this will be his punishment: more democracy, more tolerance, more generosity.” The Prime Minister: “…the answer to violence is even more democracy.” Diplomat Steinar Gil:“Norway will not change. Evil will not ...prevail.” The Crown Prince: “Tonight the streets are filled with love. We have chosen to meet hatred with unity. We have chosen to show what we stand for.

Breivik has a lawyer who is of this party and mindset.

If his lawyer is consistent to his beliefs, Breivik's compassionate sentence will make people want to harden the laws. Which is one of the things Breivik wants.

Touting the love-and-bunnies speeches is likely to backfire, while being good now. When he is sentenced later the retroactive contrast between sense and sensibility isn't likely to go over well with the populace.

Even in the event the populace under-reacts, the damage will be done. Just like how in using the police uniform he used the European's presumption of authority to keep murdering them, the damage is done. The damage is not noticeable today, but it is there.

Norway's politicians are so busy with the pretty speeches, and the rest of the European Union doesn't think this effects them. But it does. And NONE of them are dealing with it.

The presumption of authority is so ingrained in these societies, that it doesn't even OCCUR to the social leaders how significantly it impacts their society, and how much havoc and change it is going to create when the presumption is questioned. It doesn't occur to social leaders how important it is for them to deal with this effect now, or how important it is for them to deal with the contrast that will be after his trial.

Damage is done. Damage is not being addressed, or anticipated. Politicians are being politicians, news is being the news, public services are covering their butts, and no one is being a real leader who sees it and crafts their message to deal with the issues they apparently don't realize are issues.

This guy's got you all the balls, and you're too busy getting camera face time to realize he set himself up to win even if he's loses.

Originally posted by Aeons
Damage is done. Damage is not being addressed, or anticipated. Politicians are being politicians, news is being the news, public services are covering their butts, and no one is being a real leader who sees it and crafts their message to deal with the issues they apparently don't realize are issues.

This guy's got you all the balls, and you're too busy getting camera face time to realize he set himself up to win even if he's loses.

edit on 2011/7/31 by Aeons because: (no reason given)

Agree 100% with this post.

Someone mentioned mengele here, and said how evil he was. The problem with mengele, is not that he wasn't evil, but that he, like hitler, is made the essence of evil. Anything less than Mengele, Hitler or Stalin, can't be evil. To become evil, statewise, you have to reach their position. So, when the US was going to fight Iraq, they started to state how many millions he murdered. Before they were going to attack, they needed to have Saddam optain the posture of evil, by making him equivalent with Hitler, Stalin and Mengele. Americans aren't bad, they ONLY killed a few hundred thousand. That isn't being evil.

The point is, nobody is question the posture. Nobody is questioning this guys agenda, or putting up alternative methods, to search for answers of logic. It's not being dealt with, he's being pushed aside as a "nutcase". Someone told me, a psychopath needs to fullfill 5 of 7 criterias. But in special cases, 3 is enough. In other words, people can't deal with it ... so he's being "institutionalized" in a Soviet style manner. If your mindset, doesn't fit with the predefined "normal" mindset, you must be a psychopath, sick, nutcase. Yet, history is full of people, like the french revolution, the french opposition and the norwegian opposition during the wars, where they murdered and mutulated civilians and innocent people, all in the name of victory. People who had had some relationship with the enemy, or slept with the enemy ... were murdered, and the murder sanctioned.

People have the tendancy to think, that their system is perfect. Today, western society is all good, and anyone with a mindset for different things is crazy. And therefore, not dealt with ... just locked away ... like they did in the soviet union.

But even if I make the connection between current actions, and the actions done by the soviet union ... just to make a point. It does not help ... it's not being listened to, and does not demand a reaction. No one makes the connection, that in the Soviet union the psychologists were judging people psychopaths, and anti-social, left and right. The same people, that were accepted into western society and fared very well ... in a different system.

As you said, people are too busy making heroes out of themselves, and the victims. To busy being politicians ... and don't see "less" freedom, "less" democracy and "more" immigration that eventually will follow. Must follow as a result.

And even though people tell me, that there are nutcases in the world ... I will rather believe my fellow man is an intelligent being, that is capable of false flag operations, to accomplish his means. Than he's a nutcase, with the intellect, equiivalent of a frog. I don't see a frog, planning for years and building a bomb ...

reply to post by johncarter

Is one hour and 20min enough for one person to shoot dead 69 people and to wound badly other 67??? i mean i have seen Rambo movies,StivenSeagal,even Chuck Norris... But i never seen that they killed more than 40-50 people in their movies witch are an hour and half long,with the help of a "director". I mean this guy must have been best sharp-shooter in the world,or the guy had help...from "director".
I have problem understanding this and if thare is here some "experts" on weapons and killings please make me understand.... Beacause it is just unbeliaveble how he managed alone to do all the killings in so "short" time.
Sample 1.
As i see it now,police has changed their info many times,about how it happend. First they said when we came on island,we called his name(???) and he came torward,stoped and put guns away from him with saying " This is just the begining".
Sample 2.
Now they are saying they needed 2 min to arrest him from the moment they came on island till they actually arrested him,but if u see on the video they gave to VG,it took them at least 7min to even move from that van parked on docks. SO when they finaly decided to go search,they said " We heard shootings from left side of island,and we went there calling his name(???),when we came on place he stood with arms over his head,and his gus was 15m behind him"
So which one is true? 1st,or 2nd?? or maybe none of them....?
The question nobody cares to ask is What highest officials of Norwegian Government and Norwegian Prince were doing on the meeting with Bilderberg group? When everybody knows by Norwegian law they are as officials not allowed to attend private and non-official meetings.... What were they doing there,and what kind of agenda was behind that visit we probably will never know.But it seems to me that after EACH meeting of Bilderbergs something terrible happends in world.
Police in Norway is lying about infos because High Officials force them to,i dont mind police lying anyway i got use to that. But why killing those kids in the name of ....whatever??
Now in Norway everyone is very sad,and if u now in Norway start asking those questions,i am sure PST or someone else will knock on your door in no time with arrest warrant... Norway is a POLICE state,and the freedom of speach that Norwegians are so proud about is ILLUSION.... bigger than a BIG BANG!
I love norwegians and Norwegian culture,it is beautiful,country,people,air....it is just amazing place,but until those government officials that are pretending to be Norwegians* are on power,Norway will never be Norwegian.
It is sad,but also truth.
I am logical person,i dont believe in ghosts and deffinitely dont believe in this all "alien-crap" that governments are searving us with... If Aliens are here they would have made conntact,why else would they be here if they are so advanced to reach us from thir place,why would they be scared to show themselvs...? Anyway i just wanted to say i am sane person who dont agree with officials(means INSANE in their language) .
Something smells bad in Norway ....(some whould say it is five o)
Condolences to all victims families from me,it is very sad what happend to those kids!!!
Sorry about my english,it is not my mothers tongue! SO all linguists experts take easy on me please!

Originally posted by TribeOfManyColours
The mayor of Oslo:“We shall punish the terrorist, and this will be his punishment: more democracy, more tolerance, more generosity.” The Prime Minister: “…the answer to violence is even more democracy.” Diplomat Steinar Gil:“Norway will not change. Evil will not ...prevail.” The Crown Prince: “Tonight the streets are filled with love. We have chosen to meet hatred with unity. We have chosen to show what we stand for.

Which is of course total bullcrap. What is happening is in fact the complete opposite. More control, less freedom and even more demonizing of those who criticize the non-existant immigration policy for fear of being labeled an ABB sympathiser.

I don't really give a # anymore, it's obvious where this world is heading.

Welcome to the New World Order.

www.krone.at...

Breivik was very close to get shot by the DELTA unit. A austrian newsletter wrote. DELTA received the command "shoot to kill". But Breivik was unarmed when the DELTA found him, so they got the "Shoot to kill" command revoked and had to arrest him.

Somewhere else I read that Breivik sended a SMS with the following text "Breivik. Commander. Operation executed, I will surrender to DELTA" to the police, minutes before DELTA found him.

derstandard.at...



btw iam new here

I have been following this incident myself, so I am interested in what is being discussed here.

I have not heard any mention of a second gunman myself in any of the medias, so I cannot comment on that.

However, I would like to say that it is very possible, and plausible, for one person to carry out such an act. Tiny hints are often missed or misinterpreted, identified only in hindsight. A single person is capable of committing a significant act when no one is expecting it.

Having said that, I am not able to say that this individual acted completely alone. I suspect, though, that his support was mostly ideologically and perhaps financially.

I am in the process of reading his manifesto, I am about a third of the way through, and I may comment in the future on that.

Addendum:

***I wanted to add one more thing. The concept of a person being "evil," in the way that Hitler or Pol Pot are described, is totally based on societal norms and values, not by any innate nature. Any person is capable of what could be classified as "evil" if they are able to justify the action to themselves. History is ful of examples of this. Sometimes these behaviours encompass entire nations, and sometimes single persons.***

Good discussion.

J

Originally posted by jroberts227
I am in the process of reading his manifesto, I am about a third of the way through, and I may comment in the future on that.

If you are reading his "manifesto", note the word "suicidal humanism" which he uses a lot. I think it is key to understanding his psychosis. "humanism" is suicidal, to him, and yet he murders others, and does not suicide himself. So the idea that you have to "kill humans before they become humanists" really speaks to the mental loop in which he is caught. The key idea in his tiny mind, is that only by becoming anti-human murderers, can humanity avoid suicide. And so understanding this obvious truth, it is easy to just pity this man for his eventual fate.

But frankly, I think the subject of monarch/MK programming is purposefully being avoided. There is no way to decipher any Israel vs. Nazi feelings or misconceptions unless we roll the whole 20th century back to WW1 and Balfour and the US Great Depression and WW2 and Mengele which came from these earlier events. At some point, the method for fragmenting the young mind was perfected in deep occult circles, and all of this story so far is surface fodder, not penetrating the issue of where and how, the real injuries to the mind, are accomplished.

Originally posted by magtaf
www.krone.at...

Breivik was very close to get shot by the DELTA unit. A austrian newsletter wrote. DELTA received the command "shoot to kill". But Breivik was unarmed when the DELTA found him, so they got the "Shoot to kill" command revoked and had to arrest him.

Somewhere else I read that Breivik sended a SMS with the following text "Breivik. Commander. Operation executed, I will surrender to DELTA" to the police, minutes before DELTA found him.

derstandard.at...

btw iam new here

edit on 5-8-2011 by magtaf because: (no reason given)

edit on 5-8-2011 by magtaf because: (no reason given)

Not really true. Delta (Beredskapstroppen) only shoots to kill if the situation demands it.

A normal tactical procedure for Delta in a case like this is to attract the shoots attention towards them (delta), so that the shooter is no longer focusing he's attention on the civilians. That is also what happened.

Delta made their presence known to the shooter by repeatedly shouting: armed police presence.

Delta started to make their presence know when they were about 150m from the shooter. When they met up with the shooter. The shooter had already put down his weapons and was walking towards them with he's hands above he's head.

Delta were about to shoot him because of the west the shooter was wearing, and because the shooter didn't stop as commanded as he was walking towards the delta team. One of the Delta members saw that the shooters west didn't have explosives, so the dont shoot order was given.

Don't confuse the dont shoot order as if A shoot to kill order was given prior to the engagement.

Deltas main goal is not to kill, but to apprehend.

reply to post by John0Doe


A sick person can do a lot of damage in 60 minutes on a small island with over 600 people on it.
They have nowhere to run but in circles, hide or swim. All the shooter has to do is fallow.

This guy killed one person every minute in average. But most of the people he executed were standing or hiding by the shore line in thick vegetation. And many of them hid in large groups.

Originally posted by jroberts227
I have been following this incident myself, so I am interested in what is being discussed here.

I have not heard any mention of a second gunman myself in any of the medias, so I cannot comment on that.

However, I would like to say that it is very possible, and plausible, for one person to carry out such an act. Tiny hints are often missed or misinterpreted, identified only in hindsight. A single person is capable of committing a significant act when no one is expecting it.

Having said that, I am not able to say that this individual acted completely alone. I suspect, though, that his support was mostly ideologically and perhaps financially.

I am in the process of reading his manifesto, I am about a third of the way through, and I may comment in the future on that.

Addendum:

***I wanted to add one more thing. The concept of a person being "evil," in the way that Hitler or Pol Pot are described, is totally based on societal norms and values, not by any innate nature. Any person is capable of what could be classified as "evil" if they are able to justify the action to themselves. History is ful of examples of this. Sometimes these behaviours encompass entire nations, and sometimes single persons.***

Good discussion.

J

edit on 2011/8/5 by jroberts227 because: Addition of further comment

He didn't do it alone. He has a group, one that is currently active monitoring reactions to this.

He did final "operation" alone. He's been recruiting for about 9 years.

Most of his manifesto is derivative. The ideas took him 9 years. The writing of it did not.

reply to post by Aeons




>The reason this guy was successful was because he acted and planed the whole operation alone.
Secrecy was the key to he's success. If he had spoken about he's plans to anyone, he would most likely have appeared on the PST radar. Plans like this travels fast within criminal or non criminal environments, at least in Norway where actions like this are not common. People would most likely have reacted very negatively to he's plans and called him crazy. He's outrageous plans would probably also have been the main theme of the week, and that's how news travels fast.

You have to look at your information from a different point of view. This guy gathered information indirectly by taking part in many different societies and activities. He even went east to learn tactical military skills. But never mentioned what he was planing to use the skills for.
You can say that he used he's connections to gather knowledge without revealing he's actual intentions.
There are many ways to pump people/societies for knowledge/information to get hints to how to accomplish a act like this. People love to brag about their knowledge or experiance.

He had helpers, but they were passive, meaning they only fed him knowledge/ideas without knowing he's actual plans/intentions.

The problem is... this group isn't a group of criminals (in their own minds) and doesn't operate as a group of criminals. For the most part, they probably have few criminal connections, and no deep ones.

Your analysis is that based on criminals. These are people whom have a CAUSE. That's a whole different mind-set. They are not criminals. They are a secret army.

They could boast right in front of you, but you won't know what they are boasting about.

Originally posted by Aeons
The problem is... this group isn't a group of criminals (in their own minds) and doesn't operate as a group of criminals. For the most part, they probably have few criminal connections, and no deep ones.

Your analysis is that based on criminals. These are people whom have a CAUSE. That's a whole different mind-set. They are not criminals. They are a secret army.

They could boast right in front of you, but you won't know what they are boasting about.

edit on 2011/8/6 by Aeons because: (no reason given)

This guy became a active criminal as soon as he decided to make plans to kill people.
To society he was looked upon as a normal person. He didn't have a criminal record except for one or two parking tickets.
This guy lied to his friends and family and posed as someone he never was. He kept he's agenda to him self, He supported actively different radical institutions but not in he's own name. He actively took part in different military training camps to learn how to handle different types of weapons and learn tactics.

The act he did in Olso didn't demand that much coordination and effort, making the large bomb did.
Making the bomb is what took time and effort. He had to buy a small farm and start a firm to cover he's purchase to build the bomb. Getting the coveralls to make a replica police uniform did not take much effort, he bought the markings he needed in the east as he was trying to buy weapons.

What he did is not difficult make possible alone.

reply to post by spy66


Parking ticket isnt actually CRIME,so he didnt have criminal record.

And u forgot to explaine how did he "make" original police ID wich he had to show on the entering the ferry? Plus u forgot to explaine how police didnt find mobile phone with him or anywhere on Utøya? As well as why youngsters suddenly stopet talking about another shooter? And how come Leader of AUF Eskil Pedersen took off from island few min after A.B.Brevik got on? And how no one of main people of AP wasnt on island? And why is Police changing their raports every day? And most important how come Police knows everything in Norway and didnt have clue about attack?

Can u or anyone answer on these questions with logic?

reply to post by johncarter


I agree it does not make sense for him not to be killed. However, as I have relitives still living in Norway, and the people there are a lot more laid back and peaceful there, so perhaps they wanted to give him a fair trial.

HOWEVER, I do not personally believe this to be true. My personal opinion is that there were other people involved, especially when you consider Norway's refusal to get involved with world events

reply to post by John0Doe

And u forgot to explaine how did he "make" original police ID wich he had to show on the entering the ferry?

He never made a "original" police ID. He showed up disguised as a police officer with police logo. (It is not common for Norwegians to ask police for ID).

Plus u forgot to explaine how police didnt find mobile phone with him or anywhere on Utøya?

It has been confirmed that "he" had a conversation with the police while he was at Utøya.

As well as why youngsters suddenly stopet talking about another shooter?

Anders Behring had two different types of weapons and was never stationary.

Shooting a gun at targets in different direction from one location. Can appear/sound as if there are different guns going of depending on the location of the observer compared to the directions the shooter is shooting. The terrain also plays a vital role on how sound travels.

And how come Leader of AUF Eskil Pedersen took off from island few min after A.B.Brevik got on?

That is speculation. He wasn't the only one who left Utøya.

And how no one of main people of AP wasnt on island?

Anders Behring got stuck in traffic for 45 minutes on he's way to Utøya do to a car accident. If he had made it in time according to he's own planning, Gro Harlem would have been a potential target for Anders Behring.

And why is Police changing their raports every day?

As the police stated they had to give some unconfirmed information do to the aggressive press/media.
This is not uncommon in a early state of a ongoing investigation where the public pressure for information is high. There is no way the police can properly give correct information unless they have had time to investigate properly.

And most important how come Police knows everything in Norway and didnt have clue about attack?

Because the police "PST" can't read peoples minds. Behring Breivik keep he's plans of the nett and from the public.

reply to post by spy66


All u explained here was from news of norwegian papers,that is all arranged so i personaly dont believe in that story. And maybe u dont know but i lived in Norway for 14 years,so i KNOW more things than other people that only read news.... U see i know how police in Norway works,and i know that they can lie very good to people,and Norwegian people are so good that they believe in every single word police says....
Det er ikke viktig å vite sannheten for meg,jeg bare vil at de ikke lyve sin egen folk...