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An experiment in socialism

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posted on Jul, 18 2011 @ 01:42 AM
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reply to post by apacheman
 




As opposed to capitalist countries where things are falling apart?

I take it you haven't looked at Detroit lately. Or New Orleans. Or out your front door.


The USA is NOT a capitalist country it has not been for a hundred years or more. A capitalist takes HIS wealth (labor and assets) and reinvests it to produce more wealth.

For the last hundred years bankers used fractional reserve banking to STEAL the wealth of everyone through price inflation and wage devaluation caused by their increasing the money supply through counterfeiting. The banks can lend the stolen wealth (counterfeit fiat money) much more cheaply so bankers corner the "investment" of wealth and pocketed the ROI (Return on investment) INSTEAD of the people the wealth actually belonged to. This is the mechanism that has been used to shift the wealth of the individual to the pockets of the bankers and their corporate friends with lots of help from the traitors in D.C.

One of the major principles taught to Quality Engineers is the Pareto Principle - The 80-20 Rule - because it holds true for so many aspects of life. In 1906 an Italian economist, Vilfredo Pareto, discovered that 20% of the Italian population owned 80% of the nation’s wealth. Further studies revealed that The Pareto Principle, as it became known, affects us all in every aspect of life.


Does the Pareto Principle still hold true in the USA???

I normally treat Alex Jones as if he had the plague but this article by "Michael??" that he stole from TheEconomicCollapseBlog.com answers my above question. - (Some one really did their homework.)


Will The Banksters And The Corpocracy Eventually Own It All? 29 Statistics About Extreme Income Inequality In America That Will Blow Your Mind

...Over the past several decades, those with huge amounts of money and power have been busy
rigging the game so that the rest of the money and power slowly but surely funnels into their hands.... Today, the big banks, the big corporations and the federal government are all in bed with one another and it is average Americans that always lose out.....

[THIS IS THE SIGNIFICANT STATISTIC: cv]
#1 In the United States today, the richest one percent of all Americans have a greater net worth than the bottom 90 percent combined.....


WHOA, Wait a Second 1% of the population controls over 90% of the wealth ???? What ever happen to the natural distribution of 20% controlling 80% 0f the wealth???



Since the whole objective of the scam called the Federal Reserve Act is to move as much of the wealth of the USA from the people into the hands of the World Power Mongers, it looks like they have done a bang up job of it! And of course they make sure to blame poor dead capitalism for the transfer of wealth to deflect anyone trying to understand what is actually going on.

Here is a bit more on what is actually going on behind the curtain.

It was the ideas of the classical economists that removed the checks imposed by age old laws, customs, and prejudices upon technological improvements and freed the genius of reformers and innovators from the straitjackets of the guilds, government tutelage, and social pressure of various kinds....

None of the great modern inventions would have been put to use if the mentality of the pre-capitalistic era had not been throughly demolished by the economists. What is commonly called the "Industrial Revolution" was an offspring of the ideological revolution brought about by the doctrines of the economists. The economists exploded the old tenets that it is unjust and unfair to outdo a competitor by producing better and cheaper goods....

...Deluded by Marxian myths they consider modern industrialism an outcome of mysterious "productive forces" that do not depend in anyway way on ideological factors.... Hence the abolition of capitalism... [As I said capitalism is dead cv]

What is called "Orthodox" economics is in most countries barred from the universities and is virtually unknown to the leading statesmen, politicians and writers. The blame for the unsatisfactory state of economics affairs can certainly not be placed upon a science which rulers and masses despise and ignore... HUMAN ACTION: A treatise on Economics (1949)


Once one understands the mechanism of the bankers scam one can understand why the Bankers funded university economics departments in order to kill "Orthodox" economics and have agressively promoted Marxism and socialism. Socialism is the perfect cover for them. The perfect Sheepskin for the wolf to hide under because it could be used to suppress the science of economics that would have revealed their scam to the masses!


So who is now training our statesmen and world leaders - Rothschild affiliates of course!




New World Encyclopedia - Organizing knowledge for happiness, prosperity and world peace.

Fabian Society


The Fabian Society is a British socialist intellectual movement, whose purpose is to advance the socialist cause by gradualist and reformist, rather than revolutionary means....

London School of Economics

Four Fabians, Beatrice and Sidney Webb, Graham Wallas, and George Bernard Shaw founded the London School of Economics with money left to the Fabian Society, including a bequest of £20,000 by Henry Hutchinson....

The LSE was established to further the Fabian aim of bettering society, focusing on research on issues of poverty, inequality and related issues. This led the Fabians, and the LSE, to be one of the main influences on the UK Labour Party.[4]

The school was founded with the initial intention of renewing the training of Britain's political and business elite...

LSE in this sense must be looked at as the father of modern economics studies. Under Beveridge, Friedrich Hayek was appointed as a professor and he brought about the ascendancy of the LSE through his famous debates with John Maynard Keynes. The famed Keynes-Hayek debates which occurred between Cambridge and the LSE still shapes the two major schools of economic thought today as nations still debate the merits of the welfare state versus an economy solely controlled by the market. LSE's influence upon modern economics is undeniable since it both formed the very basis for economic thought as well as shaped modern perception of free market economics. Hayek's works continue to influence the study of economics across the globe. At the other extreme, during these years Harold Joseph Laski, a professor of political science at the LSE was influential in British politics as an advocate of far left policies. Many renowned world leaders including John F. Kennedy studied under his guidance at the LSE....

Anthony Giddens, the former director of the LSE, was the creator of the 'Third Way' followed by both Tony Blair (who unveiled the Fabian Window at LSE in 2005) and Bill Clinton. His policy created a balance between the traditional welfare state and the belief in total free market economics. This policy is being put into effect by governments all across the world as free market economies continue to deal with wealth inequalities and bettering the welfare of the general population...


Compare THAT drivel to what is actually happening, a slow return to a serf/lord system with the bankers and "intellectual elite" as the lords.

EQUALITY??? Yes equal poverty and slavery for us serfs.

The FabianSocialists/Banker connection:
modernhistoryproject.org...
www.modernhistoryproject.org...



posted on Jul, 18 2011 @ 06:08 AM
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reply to post by apacheman
 



If we force them to take personal responsibility for the damage they've caused, you call that theft.


We're forcing them to take a social responsibility for their actions. That's the term that scares beezer. Instilling personal responsibility in people is all well and good, but social responsibility is something everyone needs to understand and practice as well.

Everyone of us has a level social responsibility in addition to a level of personal responsibility. Having just one or the other puts on the wrong path to self destruction.



posted on Jul, 18 2011 @ 06:54 AM
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Id have no qualms about giving my stars and flags away if the socialist mind thinks its so damn important that I do so. Im not particularly attached to them. I did not steal them, I got them in exchange for providing value.

Of course folks will say "ITS SO UNFAIR!. Why do you have so many flags, and I dont?". But its not really unfair, its just how the world works. I provided threads people liked, so they gave me flags.

The key point is: If I give away all of my flags to socialists thats no problem - I can make some more flags any time. But it will not benefit the recipients because they will not have learned how to generate flags for themselves. It will make them even weaker than they were.

The socialist mind will say "you need to be forced to give", but I say its much nicer when giving comes from the heart than by the force of people with inferiority complexes.

"Its sooooo unfair...why dont you give to the needy?" they cry. But Ive already given a lot. Ive given TONS of content. Similarly in society the wealthy are wealthy because they have given TONS of things the needy benefit from. Their streets, buildings, foods, infrastructure, computers, cars, jobs..its ALL made by Capitalism. And still they whine and say "Down with Capitalism!".



posted on Jul, 18 2011 @ 07:00 AM
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Originally posted by woodwardjnr

Yes the Ayn Rand philosophies are quite prominent around these parts. Shame it's these same philosophies that caused the financial meltdown. Also Ayan Rand relied on the state in her later years.


Ayn Rand philosophies did not "cause" the "financial meltdown". What causes financial meltdown is the same thing that has been causing it since thousands of years: Making too much debt.



posted on Jul, 18 2011 @ 10:53 AM
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reply to post by Skyfloating
 




Ayn Rand philosophies did not "cause" the "financial meltdown". What causes financial meltdown is the same thing that has been causing it since thousands of years: Making too much debt.


I have never read Ayn Rand but some one haul me off to see the Ayn Rand move.

All I say was a fictional depiction of the K street lobbyists and Government/Corporate revolving door in action with the usual "holier than thou" Politicians lying through their teeth to get laws passed that help their corporate buddies and crap on the little people.

Sure sounds like she nailed today's reality.



posted on Jul, 18 2011 @ 11:11 AM
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reply to post by beezzer
 


What an amazing way to pander for some stars and flags for yourself.

Wish i had thought of this first.



posted on Jul, 18 2011 @ 11:19 AM
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reply to post by Skyfloating
 

If I may add, as a parallel, when you have given away all your stars and flags to people who don't know how to earn them, you're left wth a society with a few scattered stars and flags with no-one having the drive to earn them, just waiting for another handout.



posted on Jul, 18 2011 @ 11:45 AM
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Originally posted by beezzer

If I may add, as a parallel, when you have given away all your stars and flags to people who don't know how to earn them, you're left wth a society with a few scattered stars and flags with no-one having the drive to earn them, just waiting for another handout.



Yes. Socialism makes people weak. The more "aid" we have given to Africa, the poorer it has become. The correlation should be obvious by now.

We need to stop sending money to Africa to "help the poor". If anything we should build schools there.

We see the same forces at work in our private lives. I can keep giving money to someone, but if I keep doing that he will never learn to earn for himself. He becomes dependent on my handouts and fails miserably.



posted on Jul, 18 2011 @ 11:54 AM
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reply to post by Skyfloating
 


Teach a man to fish. . . . .

Or my favorite take on it, "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.”
-Terry Pratchett



posted on Jul, 18 2011 @ 12:49 PM
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reply to post by links234
 


Very good point and distinction.

I blended to two concepts into one because in the way I was raised they are nearly identical. I forget sometimes how seperate other cultures can make them, and hold that upholding one without the other still allows one to be considered a good person in them.

Jars me every time I acknowledge it.



posted on Jul, 18 2011 @ 01:37 PM
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reply to post by links234
 





We're forcing them to take a social responsibility for their actions. That's the term that scares beezer. Instilling personal responsibility in people is all well and good, but social responsibility is something everyone needs to understand and practice as well.....


OH good grief who the heck do you think came up with the idea of Altruism in the first place!

The Christians, two thousand years before Marx was a twinkle in his Daddy's eye.


Socialism is not about "social responsibility" it is an excuse for systematically removing the rights of the individual. It is an excuse for enforcing "Collectivism" where "the group" that is THE GOVERNMENT, is more important than the individual. Once you allow this concept to hold sway it can lead to all sorts of atrocities all in the name of "Protecting the Group." The Patriot Act is a classic example of where the individual must give up his Constitutional rights for the "sake of the group"

This is one of the ways we were seduced into believing this .

...Under Münzenberg's direction, hundreds of groups, committees and publications cynically used and manipulated the devout radicals of the West.

Most of this army of workers in what Münzenberg called 'Innocents' Clubs' had no idea they were working for Stalin. They were led to believe that they were advancing the cause of a sort of socialist humanism. The descendants of the 'Innocents' Clubs' are still hard at work in our universities and colleges. Every year a new cohort of impressionable students join groups like the Anti-Nazi League believing them to be benign opponents of oppression, rather than the Trotskyite fronts they really are.

The old tricks certainly are the best! www.heretical.com...


The reality is not all sweetness and light as the powers behind "Socialism" want us to believe.

As one Marxist screamed at me in Cambridge Square MA:
WHEN WE TAKE OVER WE WILL KILL PEOPLE LIKE YOU!"

THAT is the unveil face of "Collectivism"

History tells us what actually happens when control is complete.

Attacks on Intelligentsia: Early Attacks

In the years immediately following their accession to power in 1917, the Bolsheviks took measures to prevent challenges to their new regime, beginning with eliminating political opposition....

Bolshevik policy toward its detractors, and particularly toward articulate, intellectual criticism, hardened considerably. Suppression of newspapers, initially described as a temporary measure, became a permanent policy. Lenin considered the Constitutional Democrats (Kadets) the center of a conspiracy against Bolshevik rule. In 1919, he began mass arrests of professors and scientists who had been Kadets, and deported Kadets, Socialist Revolutionaries, Mensheviks, and Nationalists. The Bolshevik leadership sought rapidly to purge Russia of past leaders in order to build the future on a clean slate.

These harsh measures alienated a large number of the intellectuals who had supported the overthrow of the tsarist order. The suppression of democratic institutions evoked strong protests from academics and artists,who felt betrayed in their idealistic belief that revolution would bring a free society..... www.ibiblio.org...


Pol Pot

I never met Pol Pot, but I saw examples of his handiwork....

...children who had escaped from mobile work units drew pictures of their experiences: soldiers plunging bayonets into pregnant women tied to trees, or plucking out a captive's liver with a specially devised hook....

Ty Kim Seng [less than ten yrs old?cv]... disobeyed orders, went off in search of food and came across a mass grave of 30 bodies. To punish him, soldiers tied him to a bamboo pole and left him to starve for days....

People who wore glasses also were killed because it was assumed they could read.... www.time.com...


And now the Fabian Socialists I mentioned in an above are tightening their grip on The European Union. Tony Blair former Chairman of the Fabian Society is earmarked as President of the EU.

Now this is starting to float around the internet, from Hungary.


After 90 days of unemployment insurance, all assistance will come to a screeching halt. If the unemployed person can't find a job during those 90 days, he will have to enroll in public works programs which might be anywhere in the country and work on some large public projects, like building football stadiums or dams and cleaning sewers. The work will be done under police supervision. SOURCE


Last is how one of the founders of Fabian's described "Socialism "


“Under Socialism, you would not be allowed to be poor. You would be forcibly fed, clothed, lodged, taught, and employed whether you liked it or not. If it were discovered that you had not character and industry enough to be worth all this trouble, you might possibly be executed in a kindly manner; but whilst you were permitted to live, you would have to live well.”
The Intelligent Woman’s Guide to Socialism and Capitalism, 1928, pg. 470)

“The notion that persons should be safe from extermination as long as they do not commit willful murder, or levy war against the Crown, or kidnap, or throw vitriol, is not only to limit social responsibility unnecessarily, and to privilege the large range of intolerable misconduct that lies outside them, but to divert attention from the essential justification for extermination, which is always incorrigible social incompatibility and nothing else.”
“On the Rocks” (1933), Preface
The Real George Bernard Shaw


Thank you NO, I rather put capitalism back in place and continue donate to my favorite charity (The Salvation Army) instead! - And I am not even Christian.

edit on 18-7-2011 by crimvelvet because: added



posted on Jul, 18 2011 @ 01:48 PM
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Originally posted by Skyfloating
Id have no qualms about giving my stars and flags away if the socialist mind thinks its so damn important that I do so. Im not particularly attached to them. I did not steal them, I got them in exchange for providing value.




And a lot of us provide value and get very little in exchange...

You clip someone like me out, little appearent value and you lose a porportionally large part of the opposition
which keeps this place in balance. You could remove four moderates and ten liberals out of the thousands
of members here, and get an echo chamber as a result, thus removing much of the value of ATS, which is
based on a diverse perspective and opposition to popular sentiment.

I bet I can create a faux identity and triple my "value" in a month by echoing what people want to hear.

Anyone want to take me up on that bet?

Value can be a total BS concept, Bear Sterns had more value than the lot of us.



posted on Jul, 18 2011 @ 02:06 PM
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Originally posted by crimvelvet
It is an excuse for enforcing "Collectivism" where "the group" that is THE GOVERNMENT, is more important than the individual. Once you allow this concept to hold sway it can lead to all sorts of atrocities all in the name of "Protecting the Group."


I say this sums up the corporatist conservative position just as well...

We protect the group, it is just a different group, that thrives on private collectism.



posted on Jul, 18 2011 @ 02:13 PM
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reply to post by Janky Red
 
Beautiful example JR. You blame others for your lack of stars and downplay anyone elses "success" on vieled insults.
You, by your post, have provided an OUTSTANDING example for my little experiment.





posted on Jul, 18 2011 @ 02:18 PM
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reply to post by crimvelvet
 


Hungary:

Unfortunately the law passed in the final vote last monday.

Here is an english article: www.budapesttimes.hu...


After 90 days of unemployment insurance, all assistance will come to a screeching halt. If the unemployed person can't find a job during those 90 days, he will have to enroll in public works programs which might be anywhere in the country and work on some large public projects, like building football stadiums or dams and cleaning sewers. The work will be done under police supervision. esbalogh.typepad.com...


The information is from a Hungarian on ATS belsoember who has just join us here at ATS.

The scary thing about this is the agreement to "Harmonize" US laws with that of the EU.


The Transatlantic Economic Council

The Transatlantic Economic Council (TEC) is one of the most recent additions to the existing set of transatlantic institutions. The TEC, established by Section IV of the Framework for Advancing Transatlantic Economic Integration between the United States of America and the European Union, was signed on April 30, 2007 by U.S. President George W. Bush, German Chancellor Angela Merkel (the then President of the European Council), and EU Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso.

The TEC was established to harmonize the EU and the US...

At the October 27th, 2009 TEC meeting, the group was charged with continuing their efforts in support of transatlantic cooperation. This TEC meeting will be focused on topics related to regulatory cooperation, intellectual property rights, secure trade, and financial markets.


The TEC even addresses Global Governance

As opportunities and threats increasingly manifest themselves at a transnational level, the need to strengthen global governance continues to grow. The potential benefits of deeper international economic integration - as well as the challenges posed by the financial crisis, demographic shifts, terrorism, rising powers, and climate change - are prompting new efforts to shape global frameworks. Decisions to strengthen the G-20, refocus the G-8, reform the IMF, extend NATO's functional and geographic reach, expand the Trans-Pacific Partnership, and combat climate change through the UN are only the most recent developments aimed at achieving this goal.
At the Streit Council, we support the continued integration of advanced democracies as one of the long-term foundations for more effective global governance....


The new Food "Safety"
Modernization Act of 2010 turns control of the US food supply over to the World Trade Organization specifically, among others.


SEC. 404. COMPLIANCE WITH INTERNATIONAL AGREEMENTS.

Nothing in this Act (or an amendment made by this Act) shall be construed in a manner inconsistent with the agreement establishing the World Trade Organization or any other treaty or international agreement to which the United States is a party.
www.fda.gov...


"good agricultural practices", written by the United Nations OIE and FAO at the request of the World Trade Organization are also mentioned. This means the WTO has already got the "FDA" regulations all written and ready to go


We are slowly losing our rights to an unelected group intent on "Global Governance" Here is an article on Global Governance by Pascal Lamy, Director of the World Trade Organization. He is pretty blunt about their future intentions.



posted on Jul, 18 2011 @ 02:18 PM
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I didn't read all ten pages of replies (apologies) but here is a better example of modeling ATS after what the US does:

The top 10% of posters will only actually get 6 stars for every 10 stars they earn. The other 4 will be given to those at the bottom 50%. Also those who post less than once a month or not at all will receive a non-poster supplement of 25 stars a month.



posted on Jul, 18 2011 @ 02:21 PM
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reply to post by jjkenobi
 

That's actually very interesting. I gave you a star from a thread on actual evidence of alien life. But the aliens were boring and just wanted to come to Earth for Idol try-outs, so no great loss.



posted on Jul, 18 2011 @ 02:32 PM
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Originally posted by Janky Red

I bet I can create a faux identity and triple my "value" in a month by echoing what people want to hear.

Anyone want to take me up on that bet?



Lets not talk about what you could do but what you actually do.

edit on 18-7-2011 by Skyfloating because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 18 2011 @ 03:27 PM
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reply to post by Janky Red
 




I say this sums up the corporatist conservative position just as well...

We protect the group, it is just a different group, that thrives on private collectism.


I have no problem with people protecting a group as long as they leave the blasted federal government out of it. Heck I am all for Corporate Employee owned Corporations.

Actually when you think about the 97% of the US money supply that is BANK LOANS. That ALL of these loans are made by creating the money on the spot there by reducing the value of the American dollar by 96% since the blasted Federal Reserve Siphon was put in place, then the employee DID buy those corporations, they just didn't realize that that is where the "wealth" (as opposed to money) came from.

The reason we have the need for "Charity" is three fold.
1. The easy independent "entrepreneurships" have been legislated away. Heck a kid can even set up a blasted Lemonade stand anymore. So forget cleaning houses/offices, yard-work, babysitting.... If the government doesn't regulate it then the Insurance companies take all the profit.
Midway police have shut down a lemonade stand run by three girls...
lemonade stand was shut down...
7-Year-Old Girl Asked if She Had $120 License....

2. The banker siphon has sucked up about 90% of the value of worker wages and we can no longer work for the same company most of our lives as our parents/grandparents could. - no pension and no work for those over 45 to 50.

3. Welfare is a trap that become a life style for generations. Effort is put into figuring out how to "work the system" instead of working for a living. This attitude makes those who do earn a living, but who are in contact with those who work the system highly resentful.

Just after I got out of school and had my first job, I followed a lady around the store grocery shopping. While I bought hamburger helper and Ramen noodles She, in her mink coat, was buying lobster tails and filet mignon. She paid with food stamps and then hopped into her pink Caddy. Also the family next door was on welfare. Daddy lived with Mom and held a job and only disappeared when the Social worker MADE AN APPOINTMENT to visit.

Believe me reporting these people is a frustrating waste of time, my neighbors and I tried on a thieving, dangerous drug dealer who was faking an injury - no luck. Case load is how the Social Worker system brownie point system works and they will fight tooth and nail to keep that case load.

The answer to the economic problem isn't more welfare it is getting rid of the strangleholds on the economy. The Banksters and the ridiculous red tape.

People like me who have tried to look for the root cause (something I did for a living for thirty years) see socialists as just wanting to add more thieves to steal our hard earned wealth and more obstacles in the form of red tape

Actually I do not see how we can prevent the collapse of the USA the globalists have engineered. About 25% of the USA is non-wealth producing bureaucrats, we are down to less than 9% of the work force in manufacturing MAKING wealth and now a law just passed to wipe out farmers (16% of the GNP) has just been passed. Looks like Al Gore's prediction is coming true.

Gore reportedly replied that the young person should develop other plans because our production agriculture is being shifted out of the U.S. to the Third World."
My Ag Extension Agent was at the ceremony when Al Gore made this statement. He was breathing fire when he was telling the rest of us.

I am just hoping the collapse is slow enough so I am dead. I hate to be alive to see the greatest experiment in history finally die even though she was mortally wounded 100 years ago.

Think of this, If politicians are so concerned about the US citizen, WHY haven't they repealed the FED????




posted on Jul, 18 2011 @ 03:45 PM
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reply to post by Janky Red
 




I say this sums up the corporatist conservative position just as well...

We protect the group, it is just a different group, that thrives on private collectism.


One more thing.

YOU may worry about the "Group" I worry about and help the individual. We have had more than one kid come to see us and tell us that the help we gave them when they were young really changed their lives.

As far as I am concerned opening up the horizons and getting those kids off the welfare treadmill is a the most important thing I can do.

I really do not give a crap about some nebulous "group" I worry about the individual, but that is the difference between a "Socialist" and a "Capitalist"


Capitalism is a social system based on the recognition of individual rights, including property rights, in which all property is privately owned. It is not a system where everything is forbidden unless expressly allowed. That is the system where ALL rights flow from the group aka GOVERNMENT.



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