the call for activism and the shunning of limiting freedoms

Please read in it's entirety before commenting

The Argument

so ever since i've joined here at ATS i've seen the two sides of the same argument and it always boils down to these two sides, and understandably so. because activism will inevitably lead to leaders limiting our freedoms.

so what is one to do? that is my question.

we apparantly see the need for change but any change that we fight for will in turn teach them how to defend our attacks it is irrefutable truths.

the sum of what i'm trying to express can be better explained in the scene with the architects speech from the matrix: reloaded

How Society Has Been Put in a Choke Hold

through each and every revolution the reigns have been tightened. almost like a boa constrictor will allow you to take a breath so that it can constrict you further.

it has now reached the point to where we have been given a choice and through that choice we choose slavery because slavery gives us certain "luxuries". i will let you make decisions for me, i will work for you as long as i have my tv, my house, and my family.

So now we've reached the inevitable, the point where another choice must be made, but this isn't an easy choice, because as i've stated before they've learned from all the revolts they've learned from our revolutions, and have taught most people to accept the system. most people don't even notice the system. most people are so engulfed in the system they actually believe that by fighting they would suffer, because they would lose the system(i.e. fancy cars, nice clothes, etc.) people have reached the point where they believe the lies and don't believe the truth. people have become so reliant on TPTB that they couldn't govern themselves in an orderly fashion.

Anarchy means people would run lawless in the streets like rabid animals attacking anything they don't instantly recognize. they have successfully trained the masses. it's a sad truth but it is still the truth. this is what the fear tactic is for. to turn you against me and vice a versa.

so a revolt, would inescapably lead to the limiting of freedoms, because people are now fearful of others. people believe that "they" are out to get them. nobody know's who "they" are, but whoever "they" are, "they" want to rape and kill you.

The Choice

so how else can we fight? what is it that we can do to change things? a complete automatic shutdown of all governing establishments would lead to a "man with the biggest gun makes the rules" scenario.

i've come to the conclusion that there have been people telling us how to do it all along and yet we never learned, which is peace and love. Not to the governing powers, although they are not exempt, but most importantly to each other. we see it in everything, from anon - wikileaks - the recent arizona "state of emergencies". we must unravel the fear and pain and anger that has been trained and instilled in us through the many generations. how much more pain and suffering are we going to have to endure until we see war, of any kind, is not the way.

So in order to win this fight first you must not fight. We must become each other's keepers, we must become the change we want in the world. i know this is an old saying and an old way of looking at it, but it is the only way we haven't tried. hacking doesn't work, leaking information doesn't work, taking our money out of the banks doesn't work, and good luck getting americans to stop going to work. we were once THE UNITED STATES of AMERICA. we no longer even closely resemble that which we once were.

and to end i'll leave you with some of my favorite examples take from them what you will.




ignore the audio on ^^^

and only because it's relevent.
KJV Matthew 18:3. And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

and finally

Its kind of hard to get people involved because all the sheep are being brest fed the news from the teets of the neocons.

So do you have any historical precedent for the "Peace and Love" approach actually working?

I have quite a few of violence and anger working.

I'm ready to fight the good fight only if I'm not the only one standing up in the crowd things will have to get pretty bad before the people with blinders wake up and smell the stench of oppression and corruption and want to rise up.

reply to post by stuncrazy

So in order to win this fight first you must not fight. We must become each other's keepers, we must become the change we want in the world. i know this is an old saying and an old way of looking at it, but it is the only way we haven't tried. hacking doesn't work, leaking information doesn't work, taking our money out of the banks doesn't work, and good luck getting americans to stop going to work. we were once THE UNITED STATES of AMERICA. we no longer even closely resemble that which we once were.

I agree with you 99%. Our revolutions have not failed, they are simply different than any type of revolution before. All revolutions of the past were founded upon blood, further feeding the cycle of pain. As long as we fight fire with fire we will always be tainted. Love, Peace, Tolerance, and Compassion are the only ways.

That being said the only way I would resort to violence is if they (they meaning a power which threatens our very lives) start coming into our homes to imprison or kill us. While I would love never to take a human life in this situation it is necessary.

Thank you for sharing a clip of Bill Hicks. His message is truth. RIP Bill

And when I say rise up I wish it to be peaceful and noncombative but what are you going to do when the big bad wolf has a club when you were the sheep.

reply to post by kro32


That's simply because peace and love has not actually been attempted..as in say a utopia, but thats only because there's no profit in a society such as that.

Maybe it has been attempted but is was squashed so quickly nobody ever heard about it. Peace and love will not change anything.

sorry

Really I don't think anyone wants violence. Violence is just a circumstance created by those who hold power.

You wrote:

Anarchy means people would run lawless in the streets like rabid animals attacking anything they don't instantly recognize. they have successfully trained the masses. it's a sad truth but it is still the truth. this is what the fear tactic is for. to turn you against me and vice a versa.

Can you supply any evidence that this is the case? Anarchy is our natural state. We have been modern Humans for 150,000+ years and we only have evidence of any kind of civilisation for the last 15,000 years.

You are talking about social chaos, not anarchy. Anarchy does not equate to "every man for himself". It is the absence of hierarchy, of government. People would still govern themselves, as has been demonstrated in Benghasi in Libya. A consensual system arose within days, people went back to work, food was brought into market and life resumed without the dictator. There were no riots, no gang violence.

The idea of people running wild in the streets is the bogeyman the powers that be use to frighten us, their childish charges, into toeing the line. Please don't perpetuate the lie.

Originally posted by kro32
So do you have any historical precedent for the "Peace and Love" approach actually working?

I have quite a few of violence and anger working.

If "violence and anger" are working out so well, then why is the world in the mess it is in?

reply to post by kro32


if anger and violence had worked we would be in utopia by now. anger and violence is the approach always taken and guess what it always leads us right back here.

Edit to Add:
although i would like to say thank you for being a perfect example of the effects of generations of fear mongering.

reply to post by AnonYmous81


yea ok hurricane katrina, and any recent epidemic where government hardly intervened. hell look at canada when they lost the stanley cup.

edit to add:
if the government was stripped away in an instant is the example i was using. maybe if we were eased into it i believe we could manage. i thoroughly agree that anarchy is our natural state, but with the mentality that society has at this point in time i don't think it would work yet.

If you need a history lesson to see how violence and anger has changed the world then I will give you a few examples.

1. Violence has ended world wars.

2. Anger let to the American revolution.

3. Anger led to stricter laws for child molesters.

4. Violence allowed us to win the American revolution.

5. Anger led to the end of the Vietnam war

I could go on but I think you get the point. Peace and Love solve nothing. As for the mess we are in you should realize there will always be messes when your dealing with billions of people in the world so there will never be a Utopia..

reply to post by stuncrazy


That depends on your definition of "work". It wouldn't be pretty. Many would die, good people and bad, but Humanity would continue, our world would continue. If things remain as they are I'm less certain that either can.

*sings "Rip It Up And Start Again*

reply to post by kro32


It is past insane to argue that "violence has ended world wars". It is a gross misunderstanding of the truth. What ended both world wars were the peace treatise signed, not the violence that perpetuated the wars.

Anger did not lead to the American Revolution, the strong desire to be free from tyranny led to the Revolution for Independence. This is why it is called The Revolution for Independence and not The Revolution of Really Angry People.

Anger, I agree led to "stricter" acts of legislation, not law, but legislation, but show me how this has made the United States a better place, instead of facilitating the steady march of government towards an aggregation of power.

Violence did not "allow" us to win the Revolution for Independence, it was better strategies, a home field advantage, and the willingness to succeed that made American's victorious.

Anger did not lead to the end of the Vietnam war. The poser protesters of that time simply take credit for it.

You clearly know little to nothing about history.

Anger and violence solve nothing, and war is the extension of failed politics. Those politics failed because far too many people like you believe that anger and violence is an acceptable solution to disagreement.

The problem with these "solutions" is the fact that 90%+ of people must change themselves and apply them. But:
1. People don`t change just like that, for no reason (Not the majority anyway).
2. Even if 90% changed, then what? The other 10% without a doubt will be cops, TSA agents, CIA agents...you get the point. The 10% will probably still rulll over the 90%...unless they fight.