I have a few questions regarding Noah's ark/ the flood story

I have several points to make and I was wondering how people who take the bible literally would answer them. Bearing in mind I will not take, "God works in mysterious ways" or any similar replies seriously and will most probably ignore them.

With that out of the way, let us begin.

Point #1

The Earth has an average radius of 6371 km, which equates to a volume of 400 million km^3. Suppose that the water during the flood reached 8000m above the actual sea level (leaving uncovered only the highest peaks of the Himalayas (where nobody could survive for a short period of time, never mind the year it states in the bible)) I find that the extra volume occupied by water during the flood should be 400 million of km^3. "Should" because I have to take into account the volume occupied by emerged land.

Earth's surface is 510 million of km^2, only 29% being occupied by emerged land. Taking into account an average altitude of 840 m, the volume occupied by land is 130 million of km^3. The extra volume occupied by water during the flood is (400 - 130) = 270 million of km^3! From where did this huge quantity of water came from? If it was sweet water (as rain is), being the total volume occupied by sea water today 1360 million of km^3, it should have drop the salinity of sea water of 5 grams/liter, causing the death of sea fish (fresh water fish should already been dead due to rivers disappearing in to the sea): how come that there's still fish in rivers and sea?

Point #2

Mount Everest is approx. 8,850 metres tall. If it rained (at a constant rate) for 40 days, so that the water level reached this high by the end, it must have risen by an average of 221.25m a day. That's 9.22m an hour, or 1536mm a minute. Just compare these figures to the list of weather records

So basically, this rain would have to be (on average) 50 times heavier than the heaviest rainfall on record (in one minute!!)

Not only does this sound totally ridiculous, but more importantly you could not breathe in rainfall this heavy!! Noah and his animals would have died along with everyone else!

Point #3

Enough of the maths for now, if you read genesis you can clearly see that the animals were on the ark for over a year! How was it possible for Noah to not only gather enough food to last all the animals on the ark a full year? (Remember this was in the days before fridges were invented so that food would go off pretty quickly). But to also prevent the animals from a) eating one another b) removing all of the faeces and waste material that they produce and c) removing the dead bodies if any of them died?

To put this into perspective, I'm have this picture that compares Noah's ark to the RMS Titanic

I have only one word for you kind sir and that is BRILLIANT!!!

I am no theologian but I have read the Bible several times and while I understand the inquiry I think first we must take into consideration the math and science behind point#1. Water......

I actually just got through reading many papers from geologists regarding new theories in relation to not only the Earth's core but the Evolution of this Planet and the entire System for that matter.

If we had an accumulation of water deep inside the crust that came billowing out....there is your flood water??

These papers and theories are lengthy but never the less I see emerging new hypothesis to support the changing of our text books and how we view not only this planet but others....

Here is the link if you want to further investigate what I am referencing. Its really interesting and refreshing to see new ideas embraced by a community that does not like change.

www.ncgt.org...

I am assuming it will not be long before the Big Bang theory is out the window.

reply to post by MamaJ


That may very well be true, but at the moment we don't have any evidence for a groundwater supply of water that big and that also doesn't explain why or how it would all seep out at the exact same time.

There is still points 1 and 3:

Point 1: with all of the water that would have covered the earth, this would have diluted the sea water and concentrated the fresh water, which would have killed both the fresh water and salt water fish. Why are fish still alive

Point 3 is pretty self explanatory and doesn't need a tl;dr

This boat was created due to divine inspiration..

Perhaps there was a closet to Narnia inside?

Great post!

reply to post by Griffo


SO true.....well kind of. My point is you are basing your statistics on what you have read to be accurate. If the accuracy to the statistics are wrong then it is back to square one. While the link addresses changes on the Horizon in regards to what we thought was accurate and is now being reconsidered, I am basically using it as an example.

Great post, no doubt and I look forward to other ATS'ers theories.

Where did the water come from?
Gen 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, on the seventeenth day of the second month—on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened. 12 And rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights.
More importantly, the water came from the decision of the omnipotent God who made a sovereign decision to flood the earth. The same God which spoke the universe into being. I'm never going to convince you that He is all that He says He is but that's where the water came from.
As for size of the ark...
this link Could Noah's ark really hold all the animals? will do it more justice than I could type on ATS. Skim down to the Was the ark big enough heading?
It will provide a rational explanation to the possibility.

I'm not expecting you to believe it; but you may want to hold off on assuming you have all the facts.

Originally posted by faithparadigm
More importantly, the water came from the decision of the omnipotent God who made a sovereign decision to flood the earth. The same God which spoke the universe into being. I'm never going to convince you that He is all that He says He is but that's where the water came from.

I don't have the mind of your god or anything, but why would he use something such as a natural disaster to wipe out everything on the planet? Why not just snap his fingers and disintegrate everything he wanted dead? With it being a natural disaster, it could be that maybe a flood did happen and a man saved some animals and his family on a big boat and survived the flooding, but later re-telling of the story made it into something much more than what it really was? It's kind of like the Katrina hurricane. After it happened, people were (and still do) say that it was god who sent it to punish the people of New Orleans for their sins. Is that what happened, or was it just nature taking its course?

reply to post by Griffo


The story seems to describe a pole shift that was not permanent. Perhaps some massive object came by and left, then the earth righted itself and the water drained off. This could never happen and if it happened once it could never happen again. But wait......scratch that.

reply to post by Hydroman


I look at it like this...we are evolving entities who have not been in existence long enough to have answers we so desperately look for.

If you take a step back and look at the BIG picture in regards to the Universe then one can realize we just do not have all the answers. Our knowledge gets stuck in science for a while because some want to hold onto old ideas. They will not let go of some of the older ones to fit their theories. For this reason science has got to let go and learn from the younger and or older ones with fresh ides and new theories from their own community. Please do not think these men and women are not biased. They are!

Again, scientifically we base everything we know off of what we think we know. There is the illogical means, if you will.

Once we begin to evolve again in science and physics I do believe sooner than later we will discover so much more.

In regards to our waters here on the planet.....we are still learning about them. One cannot define the chemicals, gasses etc to be a definitive measurement because it too is changing. The Oceans are changing and always have and always will. We know 5% of what lies in them and we are still learning about Volcanic activity in the Seas as well. We are learning new stuff on a daily basis and honestly I am seeing it daily.

So....my point is this..... before we can analyze data we must first be assured the data is correct before we can form any type of opinion....

For the Ark, God, or anything else for that "matter".

We are about as smart as a rock. Thats the truth right there.

Originally posted by MamaJ

I look at it like this...we are evolving entities who have not been in existence long enough to have answers we so desperately look for.

If you take a step back and look at the BIG picture in regards to the Universe then one can realize we just do not have all the answers.

I don't think there would be any scientist who would disagree with you. Scientist ARE learning new things all the time. Look at what they've done with the LHC. It is amazing, and they're just getting started.

Some theories have changed and some haven't. If there isn't a need for them to change, they won't.

Holy double post Batman!

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by faithparadigm
More importantly, the water came from the decision of the omnipotent God who made a sovereign decision to flood the earth. The same God which spoke the universe into being. I'm never going to convince you that He is all that He says He is but that's where the water came from.

I don't have the mind of your god or anything, but why would he use something such as a natural disaster to wipe out everything on the planet? Why not just snap his fingers and disintegrate everything he wanted dead? With it being a natural disaster, it could be that maybe a flood did happen and a man saved some animals and his family on a big boat and survived the flooding, but later re-telling of the story made it into something much more than what it really was? It's kind of like the Katrina hurricane. After it happened, people were (and still do) say that it was god who sent it to punish the people of New Orleans for their sins. Is that what happened, or was it just nature taking its course?

Rain was a supernatural event back then. Until that time water had never fallen from the sky. As for why not use the snap of the fingers, we go back to the sovereign thing. He is God and you are not. One of the tools God uses to display His glory is called "type and shadow".
Ecclesiastes 1:9 What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.
The flood is considered a foreshadowing of baptism.
The Katrina thing? I don't know about the Pat Robertson type stance. According to Hebrews 9:27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment. It appears that we are not coming under God's judgement till after physical death. Though as the end of this age draws near and the natural disasters increase, many people are going to die. The only thing you can control is where you'll end up after you're dead.

Originally posted by Griffo
I have several points to make and I was wondering how people who take the bible literally would answer them. Bearing in mind I will not take, "God works in mysterious ways" or any similar replies seriously and will most probably ignore them.

I'll be perfectly honest with you, I don't know. Frankly it doesn't make sense. There are many things in the Bible that make perfect sense and I fully accept as fact such as the accounts of the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. There are other things like Noah's flood that do not make sense, so I tend not to be dogmatic about them. I see 3 possibilities here:

1) There was a worldwide flood just as told. There is very little geographic evidence (and it's quite controversial) for this and philosophically it doesn't make sense that God would destroy all the ancient people for their sins and then turn around and offer modern people (us) free salvation even though we are just as sinful as they were. God is the same "yesterday, today and forever" so this "change of heart" just doesn't make sense. However, I do leave the door open that it happened like this and I don't understand the "why" of it.

2) There was a local flood. There is geographical evidence that a natural bridge did give way in ancient times and a severe flood of the Mesopotamian flood plain occurred, perhaps this event is where the story originated. If so, there are probably some errors in the telling of it because the ark would not have landed on a mountain, and it's unlikely that they would have been afloat for 40 days without seeing land, etc. Many people point to Psalms 104 (especially 104:9) as proof that the flood could not have been a global event, and that in fact the "worldwide" aspect of the flood is a mistranslation. This site gets into the original Hebrew words used (kol erets) and offers that "erets" can mean "earth," "land," "country," or "ground" and that the context in Genesis indicates the passage was referring to a local geographical area, not the whole world.

3) The whole story is just a retelling of an ancient flood story that may or may not have happened. There are actually a stunning number of flood stories, many dating from well before the Bible timeline. See this site for more info.

Which of the above is correct? I don't know. For me the real question is "does this story being true or false affect my belief in God?" And the answer to that is "no", because my faith is not dependent upon this. I came to believe outside of the Bible and while I do embrace much of the Bible, if someone were to categorically prove that some events in the Bible are myth (such as the flood) it would in no way affect my faith in the Lord. There are certain things I will defend to my last breath such as the historicity of Jesus, but there are other things like this one that I readily admit I do not understand.

Originally posted by faithparadigm

Rain was a supernatural event back then. Until that time water had never fallen from the sky.

You know this because the Bible tells you? Does it say that this was the first time it has ever rained? Is it supernatural now, if not why not since it was back then?

reply to post by Hydroman


In regards to the LHC...lets think about this for a minute. I mean......I have researched that big mama jama and I know what it is for and what they have found and it is on one hand exciting but on the other.....what do we really know about black holes? How do we know how UNKNOWN particles will act in this planets environment? We do not know....and that to me is the scary part. Not only is it scary....but way naive and inhumane. I just do not see where human life is less important than the findings.

Back to topic...

In Noahs time it was assumingly like today in regards to our Planet and what was going on with it. The story could be true without all the facts being true.

I think you can tell I am somehwhat biased BUT I am in no way a member of a religion. I call my self a seeker if one must label me. I have studied science/physics/geography/theology/ and the paranormal enough to come to my own conclusion of who I am and where I came from.

SO.....with that said I am a believer of Jesus and follow his teachings. His teachings are basically common sense in regards to loving your neighbor as yourself. But of course....there is more. The more does not belong in this thread but I do believe in the story of Noah. Noah rocked!! whooo hoooo go Noah!

This link may just shed some new light on the matter if anyone is interested. The Ark in my opinion was indeed found in Turkey. You decide

news.nationalgeographic.com...

reply to post by SavedOne


Hey I am with you!

I rejected the teachings of the Bible for years. The seed had been planted and my parents were from different denominations and they basically told me....search. Search out what denomination you are.....I did more than that. I researched all Religions and decided I wanted no part of any!

I am a follower of Christ's teachings. I love the Buddha and many other great teachers but Christ is my Shepherd.

Go NOAH!

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by faithparadigm

Rain was a supernatural event back then. Until that time water had never fallen from the sky.

You know this because the Bible tells you? Does it say that this was the first time it has ever rained? Is it supernatural now, if not why not since it was back then?

If you want to understand how Cristians come up with the no rain go read Genesis 2:5-6. (Can't link on phone, sorry)

Perhaps "supernatural" was the wrong word. Let me say it was incredibly remarkable. It was something that no one had ever seen before. There are many things that blow my mind in creation. But that doesn't make them supernatural. Sorry for the poor choice of words.

From my point of view, there are a number of ways that God could have pulled this off. We cannot limit Him by cleverness. I do believe that He accomplished this without the bending of physics, although He is not limited to this rule by any means. The laws of nature are set. This is stated in the Bible and it goes on to say they are fixed. So we start form this point with conjecture.

There are a number of ways to get the existing water from the earth over the entire land mass. This does not need to happen at one time. Water can cover the earth in sections and still get the job done. Let's image that rain flooded the local area where Noah and the ark were sitting. After the ark made it's way up on the rising waters, it rode this local flood for most of the time it was on water. Image that the entire earth was under such a flood, but mountains and high land were still exposed. We do know form the Bible that some Nephilim lived through the Flood.

How do we get water from the oceans to cover up to the tops of all high ground? Have you ever held a bowl in your hands and tried to walk? Now hold the earth at a constant and steady speed and then temporarily stop or impede it's motion with a meteor hit in the Gulf of Mexico. What happens to all the water in the oceans? Look at the images of Japan after the earthquake. Imagine this all over the earth. Noah and the ark finally come to rest on the top of the mountain as a giant slow moving wave lifts them high. That wave continues across the earth like the ripple form a pond, only really high and for weeks or months. Noah would only feel the rise and fall of a giant wave or waves for an extended time.

The sequence of events could have even been triggered by the meteor strike first, causing rains and abnormal weather across the globe. We can't really say how God did it, just that it is possible.

As for the number of Animals on the Ark, consider this quote:

"Doctors Morris and Whitcomb in their classic book,The Genesis Flood state that no more than 35,000 individual animals needed to go on the ark. In his well documented book, Noah's Ark: A Feasibility Study, John Woodmorappe suggests that far fewer animals would have been transported upon the ark. By pointing out that the word “specie” is not equivalent to the “created kinds” of the Genesis account, Woodmorappe credibly demonstrates that as few as 2,000 animals may have been required on the ark. To pad this number for error, he continues his study by showing that the ark could easily accommodate 16,000 animals.)"

Another good point:

"Once aboard, many have suggested that Noah's problems really began, with only 8 people to feed and water, to provide fresh air and sanitation for the huge menagerie of animals for a total of 371 days. However, a number of scientists have suggested that the animals may have gone into a type of dormancy. It has been said that in nearly all groups of animals there is at least an indication of a latent ability to hibernate or aestivate. Perhaps these abilities were supernaturally intensified during this period. With their bodily functions reduced to a minimum, the burden of their care would have been greatly lightened."

Could God pull this off? Why not?

There are other very good ideas on the website where this came from. LINK

I don't want to say that any of this is the way it happened. The point is this: We cannot limit God to His cleverness. If there is a way to calculate how it can be done, God could do it. There are options that we may never consider. When we are in Heaven and review the record, we will be amazed. We will all go OHHHHHHHHH. I See. We could postulate all we want, God is capable.

On a side note. I believe that Enoch was Thoth (Egypt) and Hermes (Greeks). There are many reasons I believe this. Here is a link. LINK

I believe that the pyramids were built as a monument to the Lord before the flood. Isaiah 19 mentions this. I think that it is likely that Joseph and Moses were brought to Egypt to decipher the knowledge that was there. Anyway, this is for another thread. The link tells why I think this. In my view, the Pyramids were designed to withstand the floods. It's a theory so it is likely incorrect or off by perspective. At any rate, there was a reason for Moses and Joseph to be there. The Corpus Hermeticum seems to be the back information for much of what is in the Bible. Enoch 1 and the Book of Jasher are clues as well.

If you want a great English translation of Hermes, get a book called The Way of Hermes. It's incredible. Another book called Hermetica is good as well, but not nearly as good as former.

Originally posted by Griffo
I have several points to make and I was wondering how people who take the bible literally would answer them. Bearing in mind I will not take, "God works in mysterious ways" or any similar replies seriously and will most probably ignore them.

With that out of the way, let us begin.

Point #1

The Earth has an average radius of 6371 km, which equates to a volume of 400 million km^3. Suppose that the water during the flood reached 8000m above the actual sea level (leaving uncovered only the highest peaks of the Himalayas (where nobody could survive for a short period of time, never mind the year it states in the bible)) I find that the extra volume occupied by water during the flood should be 400 million of km^3. "Should" because I have to take into account the volume occupied by emerged land.

Earth's surface is 510 million of km^2, only 29% being occupied by emerged land. Taking into account an average altitude of 840 m, the volume occupied by land is 130 million of km^3. The extra volume occupied by water during the flood is (400 - 130) = 270 million of km^3! From where did this huge quantity of water came from? If it was sweet water (as rain is), being the total volume occupied by sea water today 1360 million of km^3, it should have drop the salinity of sea water of 5 grams/liter, causing the death of sea fish (fresh water fish should already been dead due to rivers disappearing in to the sea): how come that there's still fish in rivers and sea?

Point #2

Mount Everest is approx. 8,850 metres tall. If it rained (at a constant rate) for 40 days, so that the water level reached this high by the end, it must have risen by an average of 221.25m a day. That's 9.22m an hour, or 1536mm a minute. Just compare these figures to the list of weather records

So basically, this rain would have to be (on average) 50 times heavier than the heaviest rainfall on record (in one minute!!)

Not only does this sound totally ridiculous, but more importantly you could not breathe in rainfall this heavy!! Noah and his animals would have died along with everyone else!

Point #3

Enough of the maths for now, if you read genesis you can clearly see that the animals were on the ark for over a year! How was it possible for Noah to not only gather enough food to last all the animals on the ark a full year? (Remember this was in the days before fridges were invented so that food would go off pretty quickly). But to also prevent the animals from a) eating one another b) removing all of the faeces and waste material that they produce and c) removing the dead bodies if any of them died?

To put this into perspective, I'm have this picture that compares Noah's ark to the RMS Titanic

reply to post by faithparadigm


Rain has been happening for millions of years, it didn't just start 6000 odd years ago. As long as there is water on the earth and the sun in the sky rainfall will happen, there's no doubt about it.

Or do you mean, because of the area they were living in was desert like it would have been a rarity for them? Even then it's hardly the Atacama desert