This has to stop!

Originally posted by Mike_A
reply to post by operation mindcrime

 

Then materialism isn’t the right word. Materialism refers to the use of resources to collect material things for the gratification that one gets out of this activity regardless of their actual utility.

Personally I think this is just another example of people looking down on those who are better off than they are in order to make themselves feel better; demonising anyone with more than them and contriving reasons to justify this attack. For example in this thread saying that money and ethics don’t go together or that people with money can’t sleep (really?! Done the research have we?).

But all these arguments only ever apply to people who are further up the ladder than the person making them and they never consider that to someone with less than them they are the wealthy, materialistic, unethical ones.

If one really did believe these sentiments then they’d have unplugged their internet connection, severely downsized their home and given away most of their possessions. I may be being cynical but I don’t believe anyone here has done anything like that.

I think the Bible got it right -- it's not that money itself is the root of all evil, but "the love of money" (= greed). IMO, if you see money simply as a means to give you more personal freedom, as well as using and making it in a way that's ethical and responsible, there's nothing wrong with it. However, I would agree that greedy bastards who only look after themselves and would sell their grandma for a nice profit are one of the reasons that so much is so wrong with the world today.

The problem that I see with many rich people (and I know a lot of them) is that at some point they start despising poor people and throw them all into one big box labeled "Parasites and Ne'er-do-wells." Since they usually stay in their own (rich people) circles and don't have much contact with "the man on the street," they have a very distorted view of them, i.e., believing they all just don't want to work or are too stupid to ever make something of themselves. I'm sure many rich people have had bad experiences with not-so-rich people trying to smooch off of them, including their own families; but this contempt for ordinary people just can't be healthy. I totally agree with them, though, when it comes to welfare queens, who just live off everyone else's money. On the other hand, I have a few friends on disability/food stamps and very small SS payouts who are the most decent, honest people I've ever met.

So I guess the bottom line is for me: What's important is that you have values--like integrity, honesty, always doing the best you can--and live by them, whether you're a multimillionaire or live on a welfare check.

"The love of money for what it is, as opposed to the love of money merely as a means to the enjoyments and realities of life - can be recognized as a somewhat disgusting morbidity; one of those semi-criminal, semi-pathological propensities that one only ends up handing over to the specialists in mental disease."

~ Kenneth Galbraith, Economist

I think it all boils down to this: having material things is not bad in itself, but to solely focus on those material things--how to get them, how to keep them--is not just bad for your character, but also for your spirit.

I just watched the documentary "The Mindscape of Alan Moore" on YouTube (he's the comic book author who wrote "V for Vendetta"). I'd never heard of this guy until today, through ATS, but he's a real genius and a very deep thinker.

Here's some stuff he said in the video, and I think that hits the nail on the head:

When we are doing the will of our true Self, we are inevitably doing the will of the universe. In magic, these are seen as indistinguishable, that every human soul is in fact one human soul. It is the soul of the universe itself, and as long as you are doing the will of the universe, then it is impossible to do anything wrong.

[...]

The one place in which gods and demons inarguably exist is in the human mind, where they are real in all their grandeur and monstrosity. Much of magic, as I understand it, in the Western occult tradition, is the search for the Self with a capital S. This is understood as being the Great Work, as being the gold that alchemists sought, as being the Will, the Soul, the thing that we have inside us that is behind the intellect, the body, the dreams. The inner dynamo of us, if you like.

Now, this is the single most important thing that we can ever attain, the knowledge of our own Self. And yet there are a frightening amount of people who seem to have the urge not just to ignore the Self, but actually seem to have the urge to obliterate themselves.

This is horrific, but you can almost understand the desire to simply wipe out that awareness, because it’s too much of a responsibility to actually possess such a thing as a soul, such a precious thing—what if you break it, what if you lose it? Mightn’t it be best to anesthetize it, to deaden it, to destroy it, to not have to live with the pain of struggling towards it and trying to keep it pure.

I think that the way that people immerse themselves in alcohol, in drugs, in television, in any of the addictions that our culture throws up, can be seen as a deliberate attempt to destroy any connection between themselves and the responsibility of accepting and owning a higher Self and then having to maintain it.

Very well said.

reply to post by sylvie


Its all about what you believe to be your self.

Materialistic people identify with materials and forget their true self as part of and one with nature.

You can't go anywhere without seeing the strange unnatural material things that we are surrounded by. This takes our focus off of nature which is who we are and sets our focus on to the materials and then we categorize the materials into desirable or less than desirable and associate ourselves with the desirable and envision a life of what it would be like to have the desirable material. Ultimately, we believe we will find satisfaction in the materials, and that is when we forget our true selves.

I think if and when we are able to individually and collectively SHIFT our paradigm, from that of a materialist monist atheistic POV, to a monistic idealist spiritualist one (wherein consciousness, not matter is primary), that we will begin to heal the Newtonian-Cartesian split in the psyche of man, and re-discover the ancient wisdom of the heart and soul. I also think that we need to better grasp our position and stature from an evolutionary perspective and recognize the degree to which a materialist monist atheist worldview is degenerative and regressive ie: unhelpful.

We need to rediscover and come to recognize (re cognize) the true position of the human being, in nature, as a very high expression (in potentia) of the eternal Godhead. Modern science and evolutionary theory can, when not divorced from Spirit as the universal connecting principal, serve us in this regard, so that at the end of our journey, in arriving where we first started we might again know that sacred place as if for the fist time.

The problem is more fundamental than "materialism", and goes to the very heart of things. To "solve" the problem, the dualistic split in the psyche needs to be healed, and to that end we need to reaquaint ourselves with "the sacred science" of the soul and the Great Work or Magnum Opus of the Ages. Then, we will find a place for ourselves and peace for the soul.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
I think if and when we are able to individually and collectively SHIFT our paradigm, from that of a materialist monist atheistic POV, to a monistic idealist spiritualist one (wherein consciousness, not matter is primary), that we will begin to heal the Newtonian-Cartesian split in the psyche of man, and re-discover the ancient wisdom of the heart and soul. I also think that we need to better grasp our position and stature from an evolutionary perspective and recognize the degree to which a materialist monist atheist worldview is degenerative and regressive ie: unhelpful.

We need to rediscover and come to recognize (re cognize) the true position of the human being, in nature, as a very high expression (in potentia) of the eternal Godhead. Modern science and evolutionary theory can, when not divorced from Spirit as the universal connecting principal, serve us in this regard, so that at the end of our journey, in arriving where we first started we might again know that sacred place as if for the fist time.

Materialism is a double-edged sword. It has two sides in its contribution to the human being. On the one hand, we forget our true selves and create false emotions within us that send us into negativity (greed, jealousy, envy, pride, etc.). On the other hand, materialism has directly contributed to the acceleration of our knowledge of the physical universe.

There are two types of intelligence. Knowledge and wisdom.

Knowledge comes from the dissection of the physical universe by the systematic use of materials ultimately for the contribution to creating new material things and the acquisition of material things.

Wisdom comes from the dissection of the self and of natural order and natural behaviors in general. Ultimately this contributes to the improvement of your being.

The problem is more fundamental than "materialism", and goes to the very heart of things. To "solve" the problem, the dualistic split in the psyche needs to be healed, and to that end we need to reaquaint ourselves with "the sacred science" of the soul and the Great Work or Magnum Opus of the Ages. Then, we will find a place for ourselves and peace for the soul.

You are right, the problem IS more fundamental than materialism. The problem is unnatural intelligence known as knowledge. Wisdom is natural intelligence.

Duality is inherent in creation and as long as there is a creation, duality isn't going anywhere. You are right to assume that absolute reality is non-dualistic, but that doesn't make it any less paradoxical. The dualistic split in the psyche is not the dualistic split in nature. The dualistic split in the psyche is unnatural. The dualistic split in the psyche is the belief that we are separate from nature. This is directly influenced by materialism and nothing else.

reply to post by smithjustinb


There is a type of knowing, that of the felt experience of "Gnosis", but I think that's what you mean by Wisdom.

I conjoin materialism with atheism as fundamental to the problem, because a Godless world, is a purposeless one, but life is more than a meaningless absurdity, and the universe or "the reality" is never an impersonal thing.

It is important I think to remember too that the word "religion" means "to rejoin", but that in modern minds, religion has separated itself from the Ancient Wisdom it sprang from, although it's still there between the lines between the lines.

Our thinking is just all screwed up, and until our most fundemental thinking changes, nothing outwardly or causally will change.

The Ancient Hindus they understood these things quite well, and saw that their sacred science called "Brahmavidya" represented the inner circle of an outward manifestation and causation.

In our modern world, we lack such a touchstone and training. We fail to see that Krishna isn't a God without, but the God within, our true self, powerful beyond measure.

That said, the Christ mind, God consciousness, cosmic consciousness, whatever you wish to call it, is alive and well and resonates in eternity throughout all the spheres, and, cannot be an imposition upon the mind of man (once healed of cosmic ignorance), since it is our true state of being, as intended from the very beginning, from Alpha to Omega, from the first, to last.

And that's why I'm an optimist.

Knowledge comes from the dissection of the physical universe by the systematic use of materials ultimately for the contribution to creating new material things and the acquisition of material things.

Wisdom comes from the dissection of the self and of natural order and natural behaviors in general. Ultimately this contributes to the improvement of your being.

You are right, the problem IS more fundamental than materialism. The problem is unnatural intelligence known as knowledge. Wisdom is natural intelligence.

I once read somewhere that wisdom is knowledge plus love, and that knowledge without love makes us cold and arrogant.

Lao Tzu said: "To attain knowledge, add things every day. To attain wisdom, remove things every day."

He also said: "Responsibility without love makes us inconsiderate
Power without love makes us cruel
Belief without love makes us fanatics
Intelligence without love makes us dishonest."

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by smithjustinb

 

There is a type of knowing, that of the felt experience of "Gnosis", but I think that's what you mean by Wisdom.

Wisdom is the discover of self and nature which is self mostly by contemplation and the knowledge of what has been explored. Wisdom is actuated by love of self and nature.

I conjoin materialism with atheism as fundamental to the problem, because a Godless world, is a purposeless one, but life is more than a meaningless absurdity, and the universe or "the reality" is never an impersonal thing.

-For most "atheists", they believe their purpose probably is materialism.
-Life is more than a meaningless absurdity. However, it is dualistic, and ultimately there are two main purposes that lead to one destination.
-The universe is an illusion forged by the paradox.

It is important I think to remember too that the word "religion" means "to rejoin", but that in modern minds, religion has separated itself from the Ancient Wisdom it sprang from, although it's still there between the lines between the lines.

Our thinking is just all screwed up, and until our most fundemental thinking changes, nothing outwardly or causally will change.

The Ancient Hindus they understood these things quite well, and saw that their sacred science called "Brahmavidya" represented the inner circle of an outward manifestation and causation.

In our modern world, we lack such a touchstone and training. We fail to see that Krishna isn't a God without, but the God within, our true self, powerful beyond measure.

That said, the Christ mind, God consciousness, cosmic consciousness, whatever you wish to call it, is alive and well and resonates in eternity throughout all the spheres, and, cannot be an imposition upon the mind of man (once healed of cosmic ignorance), since it is our true state of being, as intended from the very beginning, from Alpha to Omega, from the first, to last.

And that's why I'm an optimist.

edit on 13-7-2011 by NewAgeMan because: edit

Yes. I think that oneness and love for all of creation is a most natural feeling. I now believe that the only thing that makes it hard to come by is materialism.

Originally posted by sylvie

Knowledge comes from the dissection of the physical universe by the systematic use of materials ultimately for the contribution to creating new material things and the acquisition of material things.

Wisdom comes from the dissection of the self and of natural order and natural behaviors in general. Ultimately this contributes to the improvement of your being.

You are right, the problem IS more fundamental than materialism. The problem is unnatural intelligence known as knowledge. Wisdom is natural intelligence.

I once read somewhere that wisdom is knowledge plus love, and that knowledge without love makes us cold and arrogant.

From my perspective, wisdom happens when intelligence combines with awareness and combines with love for self and all of nature (other-self).

Intelligence is not to be confused with knowledge. Intelligence is the capacity for knowledge and/or wisdom. Knowledge is the awareness of specific physical facts and specific physical laws. Wisdom is the awareness of non-physical attributes and their role in your life and nature.

I wonder what kind of person would prefer to argue vehemently for the materialist monist POV than to accept even the possibility of Spirit as the unseen dynamic of existence? Someone with a hardened heart no doubt. Oh but to be so cut off by nothing other than a mind firmly closed, what ignorance is that?

Originally posted by Claudius
But in reality they are not happy and they have to take sleeping
pills because they cannot sleep.They cannot sleep because their inner
self keeps asking questions about what they have done.

I couldn't disagree more....These people sleep just fine with what they've done....

reply to post by Claudius


I believe it's all supply and demand. If more of us practiced true business ethics it could become the norm, and anything less then would be the less profit-able for it -

And, I've been called an idealist many times, but this does nothing to decrease my belief in the ability to craft you' own reality -

Thanks for the post - nice 1

Originally posted by OneEleven

Originally posted by Claudius
But in reality they are not happy and they have to take sleeping
pills because they cannot sleep.They cannot sleep because their inner
self keeps asking questions about what they have done.

I couldn't disagree more....These people sleep just fine with what they've done....

Personally I had trouble sleeping, plus the additional stress added to my life during the day.

...I'm in marketing by the way.

Ethical marketing does exists, but most media agencies only care about the bottom line.

reply to post by Astar316

and those people, who disagree with that always use to say something like... "Yeah, well, then you'll have to go and live in the forest..." - or - "It's people like you I pay taxes for..." this is all rubbish in my view.
No one pays taxes because of me... I didn't make money, and I didn't make taxes..

Strawman, I didn't say I pay taxes for you or the OP. I said, essentially, that if you're going to demonise materialism while holding onto material possessions that you don’t really need then you are a hypocrite. It has nothing to do with taxes.

reply to post by yzzyUK

Why does not wanting 'things' always = mud hut or wilderness to those that love their gadgets?

Because otherwise it’s meaningless, self congratulatory nonsense. You’re not anti-materialist because you get rid of those materials things that you don’t want, that’s easy, you’ve still got your computer at least and I’d be willing to bet a fair few other things that you don’t need.

Your income is also probably several orders of magnitude larger than the world average.

It’s like people who think they’re so charitable because they give their unwanted cast offs to Oxfam.

reply to post by sylvie

I think the Bible got it right -- it's not that money itself is the root of all evil, but "the love of money" (= greed).

Perhaps, but I don't think that's what the OP was talking about.

The problem that I see with many rich people (and I know a lot of them) is that at some point they start despising poor people and throw them all into one big box labeled "Parasites and Ne'er-do-wells."

You’ve just done the same thing except with reversed roles. Maybe you know a few rich people, you certainly don’t know the majority, just as a rich person may know a few poor people. Yet you seem to feel perfectly qualified to pronounce on the nature of all rich people.

I would also like to point out that in world terms you are rich, does this evaluation apply to you too? Do you look down on those that are poorer than you?* Or are you, by some amazing coincidence, just on that cut off point where everyone earning more than you has this nasty streak while you and everyone earning less than you are nice and humble?

I don’t buy it. Some rich people are dicks, some aren’t, some poor people a dicks and some aren’t.

I totally agree with them, though, when it comes to welfare queens, who just live off everyone else's money.

* It would appear you do!

Originally posted by Mike_A
reply to post by Astar316

 

and those people, who disagree with that always use to say something like... "Yeah, well, then you'll have to go and live in the forest..." - or - "It's people like you I pay taxes for..." this is all rubbish in my view.
No one pays taxes because of me... I didn't make money, and I didn't make taxes..

Strawman, I didn't say I pay taxes for you or the OP. I said, essentially, that if you're going to demonise materialism while holding onto material possessions that you don’t really need then you are a hypocrite. It has nothing to do with taxes.

Mike, I think we're having a problem with defining materialism here. Here's what the dictionary says:
1. A tendency to consider material possessions and physical comfort as more important than spiritual values.
2. The doctrine that nothing exists except matter and its movements and modifications.

Being against materialism doesn't mean that you can't have any material possessions, obviously. It means you're against valuing those material things above all else.

reply to post by yzzyUK

 

Why does not wanting 'things' always = mud hut or wilderness to those that love their gadgets?

Because otherwise it’s meaningless, self congratulatory nonsense. You’re not anti-materialist because you get rid of those materials things that you don’t want, that’s easy, you’ve still got your computer at least and I’d be willing to bet a fair few other things that you don’t need.

Your income is also probably several orders of magnitude larger than the world average.

It’s like people who think they’re so charitable because they give their unwanted cast offs to Oxfam.

See definition of materialism above.

reply to post by sylvie

 

I think the Bible got it right -- it's not that money itself is the root of all evil, but "the love of money" (= greed).

Perhaps, but I don't think that's what the OP was talking about.

The problem that I see with many rich people (and I know a lot of them) is that at some point they start despising poor people and throw them all into one big box labeled "Parasites and Ne'er-do-wells."

You’ve just done the same thing except with reversed roles. Maybe you know a few rich people, you certainly don’t know the majority, just as a rich person may know a few poor people. Yet you seem to feel perfectly qualified to pronounce on the nature of all rich people.

I said "many," not "all." And yes, I agree with you that everyone has their scapegoats; even the poorest people can probably find someone they can look down on. Personally, I don't care how poor someone is; I was dirt-poor myself before but still happy. I was also not milking the system for all it was worth. I doubt you'd find anyone with an ounce of sympathy for those who draw welfare because they're simply too lazy to work.

I don’t buy it. Some rich people are dicks, some aren’t, some poor people a dicks and some aren’t.

I agree.

Materialism and the acceleration of knowledge go hand in hand. Knowledge is power. Money is power. More school, better job, more money. More knowledge, new materials, new desire for acquisition of materials. Knowledge and materialism walk hand in hand on the road to our destruction.

Originally posted by Claudius

Let me preface this by a caveat that is very popular in our home: what follows are NOT rhetorical questions.

Categorical assertions require a scientific approach if progress is to be made.

Materialism is increasing in this world

Really? Show me the stats.
Surely you have stats, or you wouldn't be talking in such definite comparative terms, right?
Where is it increasing, increasing in comparison to what/when, and on what specifically do you base this observation?

and people are running behind these materialistic things.

Again, which people? The people you think you know?
And which things are they running after?
Because we ARE three-dimensional beings living in material bodies - and there's nothing wrong with that, it's our condition- so it wouldn't be really surprising or tragic that material bodies need some amount of material sustenance and - gasp - yes, even pleasure.

We think that those who are rich despite being corrupt are happy.

Who are the WE you're referring to?
Specifically, please.

But in reality they are not happy and they have to take sleeping
pills because they cannot sleep.

Who, specifically, are they who cannot sleep and have to take sleeping pills because they are rich?
I know quite a few rich people, and very few of them ever require sleeping pills.
On the other hand, I know quite a few people who are struggling tremendously to make ends meet, and most of them ARE taking different sleeping aids, when they can afford them. (When they cannot, they down a bottle of cheap alco, hoping it will help.)

No discussion - no serious discussion, that is - can even begin to take place if based on generalizations of purely subjective impressions, which in their turn are based on superficial observation of a very small circle of people.

reply to post by AdAstra


I am not willing to start a debate here.But thanks for sharing your views.
You may disagree with me,but the things I have posted are all general
observations about people have seen and interacted with.
Anyways,everybody is an individual.You made your point.

Originally posted by Claudius
Your views on this are welcome.

You know what makes sorting all this out so difficult? Human nature. I see human life as being a complex mix of competition and cooperation. This makes it so tough -- if it was pure competition, you could roll up your sleeves and feel no guilt about running roughshod over everything in an orgy of sociopathic materialism. Life as a video game. On the other hand, if life were pure cooperation and compassion, we could all hold hands and bliss out in a field together in love and trust, and there would be no need to impress people with silly material objects or other clumsy status markers.

Maddeningly, life is not that way. All your interactions with other humans (even those closest to you) involve mixtures of cooperation and competition to varying degrees, the balance between them is often turbulent, and the iterations of experience that result from this strange brew provide life with all its moral complexity and frustration.

To deal with the uncertainties presented by this setup (and other factors), it's usually a good idea to have something under your pillow for a rainy day.

In truth, I'm not very good at maintaining the balance between the competitive and cooperative aspects. This board, as it turns out, is my soul. This is the only place I can ramble on and come across as a nice guy and make my little philosophical observations and treat the on ATS around me with dignity and respect for their minds, not as objects of competition to be exploited or obstacles to be evaded. I can interact with you all in an empathic way, for the only time in my life, ever, really. Because there is nothing I want from you, other than your input. I delight in your minds and hearts with pure childlike wonder, because you want nothing from me in the real world, and I want nothing from you in the real world.

Meanwhile, out in that ugly real world its a different story for old Silent Thunder. Some of you know a little about my life and my past, I'm not going to go into it here again execpt to say I guess in the final analysis I fall in the materialst camp the OP criticizes. Because I have been very, very good at my job over the past 25 years. Far better than I dared hope. I could give you particulars and start to make excuses, or complain about this or that like anyone else, but why bother? Nobody wants to hear the complaints of a person like me, I know that well.

I guess given all this, I make sense of it by seeing things in terms of the yin-yang of competition and cooperation. Anything that pushes too far to one of these extremes in favor of the other is unstable, because life can't be sustained that way. So to my mind the vision of the OP is impossible, because it denies the competitive aspects of life. Likewise, the other extreme -- a purely souless life of materialism and struggle is not only meaningless...its a kind of hell. We all have to come to our answer on how we balance these two, and most of us do a half-a$$ed job of it. I know I do.

And that's all I've got to say about that.