Converting to Islam

Typical tactics to attempt to discredit someone. I expect no less.

Originally posted by HologramDenier
Hi,
I have never been a particularly religious person, but after reading some of the recent racist threads here on ATS I thought I would look into the Quran. After reading some of it and chatting to a few Muslims I thought I might as well convert to Islam.

I am sick and tired of reading all the hate fuelled threads on ATS by members who are blatantly EDL or part of other racist groups. Its not hard to spot them, generally they find it impossible to hide their hatred in their threads no matter how innocent and believable they try to make themselves. They are generally ill educated thugs who think they can join a cause to justify their desire to inflict violence and verbal abuse on others.

So, these idiots spouting all this clap trap about towel heads and Sharia law have actually had the opposite effect on me, having lead me to investigate further. The Quran preaches the opposite of how these racist thugs are behaving. What I would now like, is some advice on how to take further steps in converting properly to become a muslim.

Your thoughts and advice are greatly appreciated.

It is interesting that your entire argument is based around disgust for racism, but you somehow connect that with the desire to convert to Islam. Assuming you are serious, (a big "if"):

-Since your primary problem is with racism. yet Islam is a religion, please explain your logic for wishing to convert in light of your race-related feelings as carefully as possible, explicitly describing exactly where and how these two concepts dovetail.

-Your distaste for the people you consider racists is very strong, seemingly much stronger than your actual interest in Islam. Where exactly does this hate spring from? Were you also mistreated in some way by the same racists, for example? Please be specific as to why this particular issue animates you enough to make you want to take on a completely different way of life.

-Please tell us whether you agree or disagree with the following statement: "Conversion to Islam is a serious matter and should be undertaken soberly and not lightly, for the proper reasons, and with a sincere heart." Please explain your reasoning.

reply to post by confreak


I pointed out a fact about how some are peaceful and why some are extremists, which is tied into religion not a political view that has nothing to do with it. And you backed up your little come back by assuming I was an Atheist and tried to flood me with pointless and unproven drivel. (Yes, I'm reacting this way because you reacted the way you did, violent much? Maybe your an anarchist! Are you an Atheist!?!?!?!)

Jamie.

EDIT: would also like to add this www.youtube.com... - You will find this quite interesting, and by all means look it up yourself!

Jamie.

reply to post by tomten

I am Not an Anarchist.
But I am an Atheist.

Atheists always have a way with words.

I'm not violent.
But I'm religious.

reply to post by HologramDenier

I have never been a particularly religious person, but after reading some of the recent racist threads here on ATS I thought I would look into the Quran. After reading some of it and chatting to a few Muslims I thought I might as well convert to Islam.

Good luck with a that. Racism disgusts you, which it should, so in order to right this injustice you decide to join a religion that considers Jews "pigs".

Makes perfect sense.

Originally posted by confreak
reply to post by tomten

 

I am Not an Anarchist.
But I am an Atheist.

Atheists always have a way with words.

I'm not violent.
But I'm religious.

That has to be the most random reponse I have seen in my time here on ATS.

Very much enjoyed that.

Thanks

But what does it mean????

I have a way with words (I think), but I am an agnostic. Well, when I say agnostic, I really mean Semipelagian...well actually, this week I might end up as a Jansenite...it depends how my moods take me and how enraged by certain discussions on ATS I am....

I may dabble into hinduism next week, just for the hell of it (ba da bing!). Buddhism was so last year...looks like Islam is next year's approaching trend for many - including the OP.

I am interested - how do agnostics rate against atheists on the verbage scale?

Is it....?

"In last place, we have Anarchists with a not fantastic score of 34%
The agnostics are also rans with a middle of the road 61%
Top of the pops, we've got those dictionary loving atheists with a record breaking 100% - dont get into a fight with these guys, they'll turn you into verb spaghetti!"

Not taking the 'mick', but am tickled lightly by your comment.

How about fascists? How good are they with words? Do they top racists?

Loving your way of looking at things...

Back on track - I love how Islam is now a race. If all religions just focused on the concept of "doing unto others", then we'd all be in a happier place...

I know that's a Christian phrase, but I am sure the muslims, hindus, jews, etc...all have a parallel doctrine.

The problem with "Islam" today is it's really Hadithic Muhammedanism.

And the racism comes more often from these Hadithic Muhammdans.

If I was so inclined towards Islam, I would check out Sufism.
And especially, the Quran ONLY movement, which does not accept the deviations found within the popular Hadithic Muhammedanism(which is what is generally known as Islam today).
See www.submission.org...
This is the BEST site on Islam, because it is QURAN ONLY.
The problem with popular islam is it's based on supposed saying of Muhammed, someof which are crazy, as well as goes against the Quran.
Even the popular Shahada is against the Quran, as it couples Allah with a person. The real Shahada in the Quran does not.
I considered Islam myself a while back, visiting the local Mosque, and doing studies, but then I found how corrupt popular Islam is, and then I found the QURAN ONLY movement, and I did agree with them.

Originally posted by tom502
The problem with "Islam" today is it's really Hadithic Muhammedanism.

And the racism comes more often from these Hadithic Muhammdans.

If I was so inclined towards Islam, I would check out Sufism.
And especially, the Quran ONLY movement, which does not accept the deviations found within the popular Hadithic Muhammedanism(which is what is generally known as Islam today).
See www.submission.org...
This is the BEST site on Islam, because it is QURAN ONLY.
The problem with popular islam is it's based on supposed saying of Muhammed, someof which are crazy, as well as goes against the Quran.
Even the popular Shahada is against the Quran, as it couples Allah with a person. The real Shahada in the Quran does not.
I considered Islam myself a while back, visiting the local Mosque, and doing studies, but then I found how corrupt popular Islam is, and then I found the QURAN ONLY movement, and I did agree with them.

You are absolutely correct! There are very few real muslims following the original Islam. They are the Quran Alone movement. I don't want to get into a debate about it, on this thread, but the website you mention does not follow the correct teachings of Islam either. They call themselves Submitters, and follow a bible-code type sytem revolving around the number 19 which makes no sense at all, and the founder of the movement declared himself a prophet, "The Messenger of the Covenant", who made lots of ridiculous claims.

reply to post by tom502


As you suggest, sufism as a special sub-group of Islam, has its both intelligent and friendly elements.

But it has occasionally been denied as a legitimate part of Islam, and sufis have been persecuted by some 'official' branches of Islam. So while it's absolutely worthwhile to look into, it's not mainstream Islam.

Besides sufism has two major directions, both rather esoteric. One bhakti-like (devotion), and one jnani-like (similar to certain types of buddhism and hinduism being 'rational').

It's uncertain if the OP author is looking for or will benefit from such atypical religious position(s).

reply to post by Partygirl


The overlap between racism and religion is not of my choosing. However there does appear to be a connection that is being made between many people. Being Muslim and also being a rag head, towel head etc(not my words) to many are one and the same thing. Racist elements, particularly in UK such as the English Defence league are seeking to build upon the anti muslim sentiment and fear that has been spread due to the war on terror and use it for their own ends..

Originally posted by sean_uk

Originally posted by tom502
The problem with "Islam" today is it's really Hadithic Muhammedanism.

And the racism comes more often from these Hadithic Muhammdans.

If I was so inclined towards Islam, I would check out Sufism.
And especially, the Quran ONLY movement, which does not accept the deviations found within the popular Hadithic Muhammedanism(which is what is generally known as Islam today).
See www.submission.org...
This is the BEST site on Islam, because it is QURAN ONLY.
The problem with popular islam is it's based on supposed saying of Muhammed, someof which are crazy, as well as goes against the Quran.
Even the popular Shahada is against the Quran, as it couples Allah with a person. The real Shahada in the Quran does not.
I considered Islam myself a while back, visiting the local Mosque, and doing studies, but then I found how corrupt popular Islam is, and then I found the QURAN ONLY movement, and I did agree with them.

You are absolutely correct! There are very few real muslims following the original Islam. They are the Quran Alone movement. I don't want to get into a debate about it, on this thread, but the website you mention does not follow the correct teachings of Islam either. They call themselves Submitters, and follow a bible-code type sytem revolving around the number 19 which makes no sense at all, and the founder of the movement declared himself a prophet, "The Messenger of the Covenant", who made lots of ridiculous claims.

Thanks. Yes, I know of the Quran code and 19. I'm not that all familiar with it, but I think Dr. Khalifa has some valid points, but it was the Quran Only approach that appealed to me the most.

What are some Quran Only movement sites you recommend?

I think it's interesting the Quran says it's full and complete, yet popular Muslims say they need Hadith and Sunna and Sharia, which contradict the Quran. And the only role of Muhammed was to reveal the Quran, not tell people who long to grow their beard or how to wipe their behind. Islam today is so corrupt.
And yes, Hadithic Muhammedan "Muslims" hate Sufism, because Sufism is based on inner spiritual realization, and spiritual life, and the Hadithic Muhammedans are just interested in Sharia, and world conquest.

May Peace be upon you HologramDenier.

First and foremost, may you walk the Path that your heart guides you. Do not be persuaded by people to believe this or that, or to deny this or that. You must find Truth according to the discernment of your own heart!!!

I became a Muslim sometime in 2001/2002. However, after much soul-searching I left Islam and became an Apostate officially earlier this year. Why? Simple answer; I do not believe Islam promotes TRUE global Peace, Love, or Equality. Instead, Islam promotes an "us versus them" mentality, believer versus non-believer. I do not believe any All Knowing or All Powerful God would instruct people to separate or divide into factions.

Here is a thread I made describing why I left Islam and Islamic teachings that are often sugar-coated wickedness.

Becoming Muslim: I Did Not Read The Fine Print

(excerpt from this thread)

By uttering the Shahada Oath that there is no God except Allah and Muhammad is His Messenger, and by submitting one's self to Allah, you shall:

• Strive for religious freedoms of speech, expression, and belief, but murder those that use those same freedoms [Blasphemy] in disagreement to Islam. [1]

• Try to reconcile Peace and Understanding with family and friends of the religion you adhered to before Islam. However, murder those [Apostates] that leave Islam. [2]

• Look for contradiction, discrepancy, and fault in other religions, but overlook the contradictions, discrepancies, and faults in Islam. [3]

• Teach Unity that all of mankind is one people descended from Adam, and that the Jews and Christians are brothers/sisters under the same God, but never take Christians, Jews, or any non-believer as a dear or trusted friend. [4]

• Preach fairness, but enforce a tax [Jizya] on non-Muslims. [5]

• Propagate the concept of Equality, but elevate the social, political, and spiritual rank of all Muslims above non-Muslims. [6]

• Promote a message of Freedom, but keep slaves if you like. [7]

• Make a woman's word in official matters equal to half that of a man. [8]

• Allow men to beat their wives and have full control and dominance over them. [9]

• Allow Muslim men to marry up to four women of the Islamic, Christian, and Jewish faith, but Muslim women must only marry Muslim men. [10]

• Punish pre-marital sex by whipping/flogging. [11]

• Allow men [married and unmarried] to have consensual sex or rape their female slaves. [12]

• If you shall ever leave the religion of Islam for any reason, you shall be put to death. [2]

And here is another thread I made trying to explain the need to break religious separation in favor of global brotherhood and Love.

Human Unification Through Understanding Spiritual Relativity

(excerpt from this thread)

"Come on Cristians and Muslims... are we all fellow humans or what?! Why must you insist on viewing those with different views than yourself as needing to be converted or condemned to the Hell Fire? Or not even on equal footing as yourself? I'm talking about PURE equal footing! Not that, "I feel empathy, I love you, I'll help you 100%, but you are still going to Hell" bull crap!

Please, please, please think about it! Would an All Loving, All Merciful, All Knowing, and All Powerful God really want us separated and fighting? My dad feels pain and my mother cries when their children fight... they don't encourage the son that is more correct to fight against the son that is incorrect... they stop the fighting with sincere love, they talk sense into both of them in the way each one understands... and they create Peace. If God is All Loving why does he command killing, oppression, and eternal fire? Is He less loving than my parents?! I do not wish torment on anyone except the child molester, rapist, and murderer... does this make me more loving than God?

Also, Muslims like to proclaim how Islam and the Qur'an are so reliable, pure, and perfect. Here's what I wrote about that claim:

"A Muslim will reason that Christianity and Judaism are wrong because there have been editions, discrepancies and uncertainties within some verses, and obvious contradictions in the Bible.
Truth be told and a little research will prove that editions, omissions[1], uncertainties with actual wording[2], discrepancies, and obvious contradictions run rampant throughout the Qur'an. The only difference is when Islam does it, is is called an abrogation[3].


____________________________________________________

[1] The Gharaniq incident, know commonly known as the Satanic Verses. Muhammad was temporarily inspired by the whisperings of Satan, and he [Muhammad] added a couple of Satan's words into the Qur'an. Muhammad later changed the Qur'an and omitted those verses whispered by Satan.

[2] HUGE Secret that even the majority of Muslims do not know about the Qur'an!

Arabic is a language constructed around single consonant letters that represent root/base-words.
For example; the consonant letters "S-L-M" as a root/base word mean "whole, safe, intact". This is the root/base-word found in "Salaam" meaning Peace, and "Islam" meaning the religion of Allah. This is how "Islam means Peace" is understood because of the root/base-word. Using different vowels with a root/base-word can alter it's entire meaning.

Additionally, vowels are NOT a part of the written script of Arabic. Vowels are added as diacritical marks called Harakat. Written script is the interconnected consonant letters, while vowels are the marks that look like free-floating dashes, dots, lines, and squiggles.

The Qur'an was originally written WITHOUT a single diacritical mark, harakat, or vowel!!!
When formalization and standardization of the printing of the Qur'an began, Muhammad had already long since died. Many discrepancies arose as to what vowels were used, because the Qur'an had never been written or compiled by Muhammad; it was an oral tradition. So how did they know which vowels to use? The first compilers of the Qur'an relied on general scholarly consensus and sentence context clues. However, there arose argument and debate as to the exact vowels and markings in certain instances. Even to this very day there are versions of the Qur'an that differ from the "standard" version. I have read a version of the Qur'an that used color-coded diacritical and harakat markings to indicate the discrepancies and variations. Change one single mark and the entire sentence changes!!

There is only one single work I know of that even explores using variations of the diacritical and harakat markers. "The Syro-Aramaic Reading of the Qur'an" by Christoph Luxenburg (pseudonym). Although his angle and methodology is controversial, nonetheless, he is the only person to tackle the uncertainty in diacritical and harakt markings.

A most significant example of his interpretations: The confusing word "houri", when speaking of Paradise traditionally means "pure mates" and also translated into "heavenly virgins." With a minor change, the word can mean "grapes." Grapes would fit PERFECTLY in context because the Qur'an always speaks of the wonderful food and drink of Paradise!
The Virgins and the Grapes: The Christian Origins of the Qur'an

That was a lot to write and explain, but if you made it this far, you will see the full-blown case illustrating the Qur'an can not be purely the word-for-word of God or Muhammad.

[3] "None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?" [Qur'an 2:106]

"When We substitute one revelation for another, and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages), they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not." [Qur'an16:101]

"This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My favor upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. [Qur'an 5:3]

Then why did Allah not abolish slavery and why are woman equal to half a man?


I would NEVER recommend Islam as a religion to anyone. However, I do suggest everyone to follow their heart. If your heart leads you to Islam; "To you be your way and to me be my way."

Assalaamu alaikum.

reply to post by tom502


Unfortunately, I did not find a Quran Only movement that you could call a community. There are a growing number of Submitters and Quranist muslims, but there is nothing organised. If you google "Quran Alone", "Quranist" etc, you might find more info and like-minded people on forums such as Free Minds.

reply to post by sean_uk


We've had the "do we need Hadith" debate in the madrasa I used to attend.

Without Hadith how do Muslims know how to offer salah (pray)?
Without Hadith how do Muslims know how to properly perform Hajj (pilgrimage)?
Without Hadith how do Muslims know how to properly perform wudhu (purification)?
Etc., etc., etc.

Many times over Allah says in the Qur'an "obey God and His Messenger."
If Muslims are not to follow Hadith, why does Allah keep repeating to "follow His Messenger?"

I believe Hadith are an integral part of Islam. But Hadith should be of the most sahih (authentic) available.

This thread is proof that religion causes conflict.

Originally posted by Sahabi
reply to post by sean_uk

 

We've had the "do we need Hadith" debate in the madrasa I used to attend.

Without Hadith how do Muslims know how to offer salah (pray)?
Without Hadith how do Muslims know how to properly perform Hajj (pilgrimage)?
Without Hadith how do Muslims know how to properly perform wudhu (purification)?
Etc., etc., etc.

Many times over Allah says in the Qur'an "obey God and His Messenger."
If Muslims are not to follow Hadith, why does Allah keep repeating to "follow His Messenger?"

I believe Hadith are an integral part of Islam. But Hadith should be of the most sahih (authentic) available.

,,
Off the top of my head, without doing any google search to provide chapter and verse evidence. First, I presume that you know the Qu'ran well enough for me to tell you that salah (prayer) is described (in the Quran) as such: standing, bowing and prostrating. It also mentions five prayers and the times when to prayer. It describes how to perform wudhu by washing your face, hands up to the elbows, and feet up to the ankles. If no water is available or you have an illness, you are permitted to use clean, dry soil. It also describes hajj.

The Quran also warns about following Hadith, and tells muslims not to follow hadith.

reply to post by sean_uk


For these matters the Qur'an gives the broad explanations. Only the Hadith gives the key details of how to stand in congregational prayer, what to say during prayer, how many times to bow, how many times to prostrate, etc. Only the Hadith gives the key details as to what nullifies wudhu, such as eating cooked food, passing gas, etc.


P.S.
As I said above, the Qur'an repeats many times, "Obey Allah and His Messenger." If there is such a verse that says to not follow Muhammad or Hadith, I would appreciate you quote it. To my recognition, I've never read such a Qur'anic verse.

I am no longer a Muslim, so perhaps my opinion is no longer valid.
But to my understanding, the Qur'an should be followed primarily, and the Hadith is essential as a supplement to fill in gray areas, fine details, and points that the Qur'an doesn't fully explain.

The Quran speaks of itself as been complete, with nothing left out... everything is clear and explained in detail:

for example:

Quran 6:38 " . ..Nothing have we omitted from the Book..."
Quran 6:114 "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail."

The Quran warns about Hadith:

Quran 7:185 "...What HADITH besides the Qur'an, are they going to believe after him?"
Quran 31:6 "But among people, there are those who invest their time in HADITH which is unfounded, so as to lead those without knowledge away from the Path of Allah, making mockery of it (the Qur'an). For such there is shameful punishment in store."
Quran 45:6 "These are the Messages of Allah We convey to you with Truth. Then, in what HADITH, if not in Allah and His Verses, will they believe?"
Quran 77:50 "In what Hadith, after this, will they believe?"


The quran is vague, too vague on many important issues, some of which you have brought up: how to pray, what to say in prayer etc. That is why muslims have their hadith, which expains everything in detail. The Islam that is practised today is based on hadith, which were composed 100's of years after muhammad's death. The quran fails: it does not speak the truth, because it claims to be complete, concise and free from error. It is not complete, nor is it fully detailed.

The Quran and Hadith contradict each other. Where does that leave Islam?

reply to post by sean_uk


Thanks for providing those quotes. If you refer to those verses, they do in fact read "Hadith" in the Arabic. However, hadith simply means sayings, teachings, and traditions of a person. "Hadith" in reference to Muhammad is not exclusive. It is a 'generic' term coined by his followers. Today the word 'hadith' has become almost completely synonymous to the sayings of Muhammad, although at the time of Muhammad the word had it's original broader meaning.

Allah in the Qur'an instructs Muslims to obey and follow Muhammad:

"O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey His messenger and those charged with authority among you. If you differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His messenger, if you do believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is best and the most suitable for final determination." [4:59]

"Those who obey Allah and His messenger and fear Allah and observe Him, these are triumphant ones." [24:52]

"You shall obey Allah and His messenger, that you may obtain mercy." [3:132]

"He who obeys the messenger obeys Allah." [4:80]

"These are the limits set by Allah. And those who follow the commandments of Allah and the messenger will be admitted to gardens with streams of water running by, wherein they abide forever. This is the greatest triumph." [4:13]

"Those who disobey Allah and the messenger and transgress His limits will be admitted to a fire and abide there forever and shall have a humiliating punishment." [4:14]

It is my understanding that Allah said to obey and follow Muhammad, but in the verses you provided Allah was using the original meaning of 'hadith' to mean do not follow teachings outside of Islam. It was the later followers of Islam that gave 'hadith' the exclusive association with Muhammad.

You, (OP) said, "So, these idiots spouting all this clap trap about towel heads and Sharia law have actually had the opposite effect on me, having lead me to investigate further. The Quran preaches the opposite of how these racist thugs are behaving. What I would now like, is some advice on how to take further steps in converting properly to become a muslim."

Towel Heads? Towwwwwwel Heads? How easily offended are thee. What pray tell is that towel thingy that is on the head? Name please? Thanks in advance for political correctness.

Let me assist you in your investigation.

Fact...the Muslim religion was created to discredit the saving grace of Jesus Christ and that HE is the Only Son of God. To properly convert and be cool with God, you have to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and not view our Great Lord as a lowly prophet such as what the real racist thugs do.

Peace and may the God of Jesus Christ bless you as He sees fit.