Question about Eastern Star

you trying to cloak what we are writing with you propaganda and off topic stories without essence.

pot-kettle-black?

there were many Native Americans during the missionary period of the 1800s
that felt that the cross or more accuratly the cruicifix was evil. that it stood
for pain, death and humiliation. so by the standard of NH & DP that would
make it so right? also the upside down cross displayed so well as a symbol
of satinists by hollywood, that would also be unchallengeable right?

Originally posted by NeonHelmet
To my knowledge its more like 10% of the masonry that is infected, the bad part about this is that it is the TOP of the lodge who worship Satan, and have all of you manipulated into thinking we are doing something good here I am a faithful believer in Jesus and warrior against ignorance.

Whew. It's like "dial-a-libel" with these guys... if one tactic isn't working, pull another one of the five standard lies out of the bag, and try that one.

Here's the thing about the "top Masons in control" saw: Regular Masonry is controlled by the Grand Lodge System. Each Grand Lodge is the absolute authority over its jurisdiction, and there is no higher Masonic Authority. The Grand Master is the head of the Grand Lodge, he's the guy in charge. The Grand Master changes every year, and is elected.

Now, if we want to believe that it's only the "high level" Masons who know what's going on, then we must be talking about the Grand Master and his officers... there is no higher authority. OK, now we know what we're talking about.

Now, as I mentioned before, the Grand Master changes every year. In my jurisdiction, I am not aware of any Grand Master that has served more than one term, and indeed I believe that to do so is unconstitutional (I don't feel like looking it up right now). That means that since 1984, twenty separate individuals have held that office, all of whom, if you believe NeonHelmet, are in on the big "satanic secret."

Let's talk about the Grand Masters (Register of Alberta, my jurisdiction) I have known personally.

This year's Grand Master is Rod Ponech. Rod is a good and decent man. Like many previous Grand Masters, he has chosen the theme of his year based on words from the New Testament. He chose Matthew 5:16:

[16] Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Rod also serves as the treasurer in the local Scottish Rite Body, and is a strong proponent of several children's Charity initiatives in that body. How Satanic can you get?

Let's go back a year to Norm Thomas. I adore Norm Thomas, and feel privileged to call him my friend (as I also feel about Rod, of course, just in case you're reading this, Rod ). Norm is a Lay Minister in a Christian Church. Norm is also a member of the SRIA, an organisation that requires one to be a trinitarian Christian to join.

Norm's Theme was from II Timothy 2:15 :

[15] Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Again, how Satanic.

Let's go back one more year to Terry Drolet. I'm afraid I don't have any record of what Terry's Theme was. I don't know him very well, but I do know that the highlight of his year as Grand Master was visiting the Holy Land, and seeing the steps Christ trod. There's nothing more Satanic than that, eh.

Just a little note, as well... I worked for the Grand Lodge (not as an officer... I was the Masonic Higher Education Bursary Fund Representative for the District of Beaverhills, working for the District Deputy Grand Master, Mahlon Weir (a man whose virtues and spirituality are too extensive to be listed here)). That makes me "one of the top-level Masons." So, I'm in on this Satanism as well, am I? Quite surprising that all I've seen are decent, religious men.

Pot-kettle-black!

Are you calling me a hypocrite?
If you took the time to read the thread you would see, that we are not making a hundred year old claim to what that symbol stands for but a thousand year old claim to what the symbol stands for.
We are not talking about the reversed cross or the cross!
It is not the symbol in it self that is used that�s evil, it�s the meaning of the symbol, its what the symbol have meant to people all over the world the last 5000 years, a lot is in symbolism it�s the means to communicate with each other across physical as well as language boundaries.
It is the means to say hey look we are the good guys don�t fear us or *muhaha* we worship the Supreme Being.

I would also like to point out a growing fetish in here that is to take some thing completely out of context and then word bash it so hard that every meaning is lost.
Now this final remark wasn�t meant to someone in particular just an observation I have made.

Baron Bilbo Baggins
Bilbo's Empire of the Neutral Zone

�What we anticipate seldom occurs; what we least expected generally happens�

Ps: A fast reply to AK, that is not what I am saying, I have never claimed you to be in the top of the Masonic lodges you have made that claim!
If you were in the TOP you would never tell us what happened there.
Now AK I have tried my best to change my tone toward you, and I would like you to stop calling me a liar, an ignorant perhaps or misguided, but I am not lying (i.e. telling something as true I know to be untrue.)


[edit on 13-8-2004 by NeonHelmet]

[edit on 13-8-2004 by NeonHelmet]

[edit on 13-8-2004 by NeonHelmet]

You show a breath-taking ignorance of symbolism and it's usage.

Also, pulling a page from David Icke (the self-proclaimed Messiah) does show you to be a hypocrite. Is a man who claims to be the new Jesus a good man? How do you manage to condemn others for their beliefs when you believe in the work of somebody who is so obviously un-Christian?

I also love the way you change directions over the pentagram. First it's evil back then, then it's not evil somewhere else in time, then it's evil again.

Originally posted by NeonHelmet
and I would like you to stop calling me a liar, an ignorant perhaps or misguided, but I am not lying (i.e. telling something as true I know to be untrue.)

Alright, NeonHelmet. That I'll do.

I state it officially: NeonHelmet is ignorant and misguided.

I have made the mistake to allow myself to go off topic I will stop this and perhaps join another thread were it is more appropriate to the discussion.
AK this isn�t a debate about what you do in the top lodge, and I apologize for this as it was me that started it by making a �false� claim according to you and you off course defended it.
I will search for a thread were this is already being discussed or ask the moderators for permission to start a new thread with this subject.

Baron Bilbo Baggins�
Bilbo's Empire of the Neutral Zone

PS: BASTET BEFORE YOU CALL YOU ARMY OF MODS IN HERE AND STARTS A INQUSITION AGAINST ME JUST DROP IT!
I SAID DROP IT!

Now leveller you just make me so happy inside every time you post your gospel!
I have explained were I found the site and how I found, because I happen to agree with 5 quotes of he�s you can�t call me a hypocrite and you seem to know him very well.
I am saying that the symbol is evil but not the symbol in it self, are you just stupid or are you trying with some low life scheme to pull me into some sort of trap *LOL*
I can draw what I want without making it evil but if in fact the whole world considered it evil wouldn�t it be evil?
ALL SYMBOLS ARE NEUTRAL IT IS THE WAY THEY ARE UNDERSTOOD AND THE ENRGIES THAT HAVE BEEN PUT IN THEM THAT MAKES THEM GOOD/EVIL!
As I try to explain but have utterly failed at Is that no symbol from start is evil/good but if the human race over thousands of years has put good or bad energies/thoughts in it, it would have become good/evil.
Still the symbol is neutral it is just what we feed it with that makes the difference.
If I painted a painting with a man slaughtering 10 little infant babies and I said hey it means something good to me, it would still be an evil painting, the inverted pentagram has been used again and again for evil things so no matter how I paint it, it would be an evil painting.
Again because I happen to find 5 pictures and 5 quotes I like on David Icke�s homepage which all of you seem to know even better than me, you can�t label me with the Icke lover stamp.

Baron Bilbo Baggins
Bilbo's Empire of the Neutral Zone

�Sometimes I lie awake at night, and I ask, "Where have I gone wrong?"
Then a voice says to me, "This is going to take more than one night."

[edit on 13-8-2004 by NeonHelmet]

Originally posted by NeonHelmet
I can draw what I want without making it evil but if in fact the whole world considered it evil wouldn?t it be evil?

No. There is a difference between drawing and symbology.

ALL SYMBOLS ARE NEUTRAL IT IS THE WAY THEY ARE UNDERSTOOD AND THE ENRGIES THAT HAVE BEEN PUT IN THEM THAT MAKES THEM GOOD/EVIL!

Yet again no. Some were designed with pre-conceived ideas.

As I try to explain but have utterly failed at Is that no symbol from start is evil/good but if the human race over thousands of years has put good or bad energies/thoughts in it, it would have become good/evil.
Still the symbol is neutral it is just what we feed it with that makes the difference.

No. Symbols aren't always neutral at their conception. Man wouldn't create them if they didn't have a purpose would he?

If I painted a painting with a man slaughtering 10 little infant babies and I said hey it means something good to me, it would still be an evil painting, the inverted pentagram has been used again and again for evil things so no matter how I paint it, it would be an evil painting.

Ummm rather contradicts your first couple of statements doesn't it?

Again because I happen to find 5 pictures and 5 quotes I like on David Icke?s homepage which all of you seem to know even better than me, you can?t label me with the Icke lover stamp.

Maybe you should check your sources a bit better in future then? However you look at it, you quoted the guy who claims he is Jesus to prove others anti-Christian. You can't have it both ways, old bean.

?Sometimes I lie awake at night, and I ask, "Where have I gone wrong?"
Then a voice says to me, "This is going to take more than one night."

I reckon the way you're going, it's going to take you more than one life time.
By the way. Hearing voices? You better get that one checked out with the head doctor. It could be a sign of mental illness.

[edit on 13-8-2004 by Leveller]

Tamahu

You said: this magical sign we can command the elemental creatures that inhabit the regions of Fire, Air, Water and Earth.

As written in the Satanic bible the 4 crown pincess are :Fire, Air, Water & Earth.

Not for nothing, I am not a satanist but did stun my High School back in the day with a 26 paged typed report about the Satanic Bible..

and yes you are correct on this mistype "Lavey".

What ever Leveller you are misinterpreting me on purpose, try to be serious!
Is there a difference between a painted symbol and a symbol?
All symbols are neutral it is what we put in them that makes them evil, and I am saying it is man that puts the meaning in a symbol not the symbol that gives it self meaning, are you reading what I am writing?
No I don�t contradict what I am saying if I made an inverted pentagram and I thought it would be good it won�t matter because the rest of the world would recognise it as evil.
Why do you keep referring to Christianity I have never said I defended Christianity or Jesus!
An to my knowledge he has taken that statement back, if what he has gone through is real, now I am not saying it is wouldn�t you at some time perhaps claim that you where Jesus?
Now any way David Icke is not the point I stand by those quotes I knew it before I read it on he�s page, which I stumbled over by coincidence.
Don�t say I have a mental disease Leveller; don�t try to tick me of with your adolescent name calling.

Baron Bilbo Baggins
Bilbo's Empire of the Neutral Zone

�Often we can achieve an even better result when we stumble yet are willing to start over, when we don't give up after a mistake, when something doesn't come easily but we throw ourselves into trying, when we're not afraid to appear less than perfectly polished.�

Originally posted by NeonHelmet

Is there a difference between a painted symbol and a symbol?
All symbols are neutral it is what we put in them that makes them evil, and I am saying it is man that puts the meaning in a symbol not the symbol that gives it self meaning, are you reading what I am writing?

What a stupid statement. Anything that involves interpretation by man, has a positive or negative aspect. The whole essence of symbology is interpretation.
Also a painting can be symbolic of something, but it is not a symbol in itself - so sorry - wrong again.

Why do you keep referring to Christianity I have never said I defended Christianity or Jesus!

You really aren't that clever are you? What are your references to Satanism compared against then? If you're not defending Christianity or any mainstream religion, then Satanism is about the only thing that is neutral in your rantings.

An to my knowledge he has taken that statement back, if what he has gone through is real, now I am not saying it is wouldn?t you at some time perhaps claim that you where Jesus?

Nope. I'd never be insane enough to call myself Jesus. Nor would I believe that what David Icke has gone through is in any sense of the word real. Taking the statement back gives him no more credibility though, does it?

As for the "mental disease"? Hearing voices is sometimes a symptom of some mental disorder. You stated you hear voices. I stated the fact. Sorry if you think that's namecalling.
Maybe you should ask your "voice" to explain that one to you.

with ignorancehelmet set on ignore...

I've jumped in and out of this interesting (read "silly") thread...wow over 7 pages of it thus far.

I may have missed it but has anyone pointed out that the Grand Chapter of the Order of the Eastern Star in New York uses the 5 pointed star with one point UP?...not down! Yes, they have a reason for doing so but I won't get into their history here.

The interesting thing here is that with all the talk about the OES and the Pentagram/star, yadda yadda yadda.... Two of it's 5 degrees are specifically Christian in nature (that of Martha who's brother Lazarus is raised from the dead by Jesus) Yes JESUS himself is featured in the OES degrees...and that of Electa or The Elect Lady who refuses to trample upon the Cross when told to do so by the Roman soldier.

All that aside, it's truly a shame that all of you who believe the OES is EVIL EVIL EVIL can't attend a meeting of the Order of the Eastern Star. I'm a Past Worthy Patron of the OES (that's the officer "second in command" the Worthy Matron is the presiding officer except during initiations) So, I've attended many OES meetings and presided at initiations (used to have the entire ritual memorized...) and I can honestly say that if those of you who think we're satanists, etc. etc. could attend an OES meeting, you'd....why you'd....

you'd FALL ASLEEP! It's a fraternal society like any other. The Rebekah Lodge of the Odd Fellows, the Lady Pythians, the Ladies Oriental Shrine...not great world-domination secrets told here...no human sacrifice...no ANYTHING but a nicely done ritual ceremony inducting new members into the Order, a BORING business meeting, a bit of arguing over the bills and whether or not to install an elevator so the 98 year old members can continue to attend the meetings, a bit of stale cake and aluminum-flavored coffee afterwards and that's IT!

So why all the fuss???? By the way, a quick search on Ebay or Advanced Book Exchange will turn up DOZENS of copies of the OES ritual. There truly is nothing secret about it any more.

Sheesh!

Originally posted by Justmytype
Tamahu

You said: this magical sign we can command the elemental creatures that inhabit the regions of Fire, Air, Water and Earth.

As written in the Satanic bible the 4 crown pincess are :Fire, Air, Water & Earth.

Not for nothing, I am not a satanist but did stun my High School back in the day with a 26 paged typed report about the Satanic Bible..

and yes you are correct on this mistype "Lavey".

The main difference between Samael Aun Weor and Anton Lavey, being that the latter is all about the worship of the ego(Satan), and that the former is all about the elimination of ego.




Peace

The false theory that the top 10% of Masons are evil and know the "truth" is very funny. I know most of the high ranking brothers in my GL, Rite and Jurisdiction. I have met and had many conversations with our Grand Master, Deputy Grand Master, Grand Inspector, Grand High Priest, and Grand Commander. Although they have their various styles of teaching, lecturing or even conversing, non of them have any inclination to Satanism, or anything associated with it. I knew our Grand Inspector for about 4 years before I even became a Mason, before I knew he was even invloved in Masonry. He actually came to my MM raising. When the hoodwink was taken off, he was there standing next to me, smiling, this is the first time I knew he was involved in Masonry. Because i've gone through many schools of though he and I would have frequent conversations, both before and after I joined the craft, yet nothing he has ever said or illuded to has ever been related to satanism or anything evil. In short there is no evidence to support the 10% theory, and for the record the group that originated it is the Nation of Gods and Earths, which I one held the title/rank of "Supreme" in, as I was once a stellar member. That being said I know both sides of this myth, both sides of the coin, and there is no merit to it, so put it to rest.

SYMBOLS

A certain individual seems to be very confused as to what symbols are and aren't, what their inherant meanings contain.

Symbols themselves can and cannot contain an inherant evilness to them, it depends on that symbols history, and what purpose it was originally created for. Symbols aren't evil themselves as they are simply "symbols" a creation of man, usually based upon somthing found in nature, or in ones enviornment. However once man creates a symbol he then assigns a meaning to it, as that is the purpose of a symbol to communicate meaning. If that meaning is "good", then its a "good" symbol, if its "evil" then its "evil". However many symbols are too old and too common to indescriminately bow to this rule. Many symbols such as the star of david, cross, swastica have existed since antiquity and can be found being used by ancient cultures all over the globe, cultures who seemingly had no contact with one another. Just because the Nazi's used the swastica doesnt mean that the ancient swasticas found in Egypt and India mean the same thing and are evil as well. When the Swastic is used by the Nazi's or under the theology/morality (or lack there of ) of the Nazi's then it is indeed evil as evil acts were done under it. The same goes for the Cross, just because its attached to Christianity NOW doesnt mean that if you see a Cross from 2500 BC etched in a wall it was a tribute to the Christian theology. Additionally humans choose to interpet sybols differently based upon their experience with them or under them. To slaves during slavery a slave ship was a symbol of death, destruction, evil, but to a Slave shipper and slave Master it was a symbol of opportunity, wealth, prosperity. We now view slave ships in a negative conotation based upon a contemporary and common morality of mankind, we understand, and the majority of us agree that the purpose they served under the guidance of man was evil, and thus are attached to that stigma. But its easy to exoterically categorize things as postive and negative, good and bad because of the rule of morality and righteousness. Its much more difficult to judge a symbols esoteric meanings in such a way. You can't just assume that everytime you see an upside down 5 pointed star its a tribute to satanism. Nor can you assume that its not, you must consider both, examine it intelligently and then gain an understanding of what it is trying to communicate in this specific instance, UNLESS the symbol is a part of an organizations emblem which predates the negative, satanic, contemporary usage by such groups as Satanists, in these cases its easy for the logical and intelligent to eliminate such claims.

Since this whole thread was started about how evil the Order of the Eastern Star is...and in particular that scary 5 pointed star with one star-point down...and since the OES ritual is available to anyone with a few $$$ and the inclination to look around for it...and since Detective Perez posted a link to a picture of an 1866 version of the Order of the Eastern Star...I thought I'd quote a bit from that book. I have an 1866 version just like the one in the picture (as well as several other versions including the current one)

Here's how "evil" that little book is, for those interested.

pp. 56-57 Jesus said unto her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live; and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"
She answered at once, in the tone and spirit of perfect faith: "Yea, Lord I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world!"

(Ummmm pretty evil stuff there...)

pg. 35 Freemasonry in its obligations, emblems and principles,is peculair and we, as Master Masons, are taught to respect devotion to religious principles. Upon our first entrance into the Masonic Lodge we testify our faith and trust in God. Atheism will effectually debar any person from becoming a Freemason.


Yep. I'm convinced that THAT'S evil! Guess I'd better resign from the Order of the Eastern Star.

Originally posted by senrak
you'd FALL ASLEEP!

Brother, I wouldn't agree with this, at least re: our local Chapters. I've never attended a meeting of the OES here, but I have had the pleasure of meeting some of the women involved. They are among the most together, smartest, most decent, toughest, most compassionate women I know. At their meetings, they discuss important issues, and they're always there, supporting their charities and good works with a degree of humility and silence which we men are scarce able to achieve.

I've never been pleased with the "we Masons are just doddering, boring fools -- we're nothing to be threatened by" argument, but I certainly wouldn't say that this applies to the OES. (I'm not sure you were trying to imply this either, of course, as it's never been my experience that you've been of that opinion, Senrak).

Originally posted by AlexKennedy

Originally posted by senrak
you'd FALL ASLEEP!

Brother, I wouldn't agree with this, at least re: our local Chapters. I've never attended a meeting of the OES here, but I have had the pleasure of meeting some of the women involved. They are among the most together, smartest, most decent, toughest, most compassionate women I know. At their meetings, they discuss important issues, and they're always there, supporting their charities and good works with a degree of humility and silence which we men are scarce able to achieve.

I've never been pleased with the "we Masons are just doddering, boring fools -- we're nothing to be threatened by" argument, but I certainly wouldn't say that this applies to the OES. (I'm not sure you were trying to imply this either, of course, as it's never been my experience that you've been of that opinion, Senrak).

Bro. Alex,

Sadly the OES in my area has become boring and a veritable power-struggle to become a Grand Officer. That's not what it SHOULD be, but sadly, it is. Same goes for the Order of the Amaranth and the White Shrine of Jerusalem. Lodge meetings around here are generally well done. We are blessed with some very active and dedicated Masons who like to perform the ritual letter-perfect (although they don't ridicule those who make mistakes) ...but the ladies organizations are quickly falling by the way-side.

But they're still not "satanic"

S&F

-John

To my 10% Masonic claim I would like to apologize, I have seen no evidence that should say that in fact it is only the 10 % of the top there are devil worshipers, but I find it hard to believe that so many good Christians cant see that top Masonic lodges like the P2 of the Italian chapter are infected with bad blood.
You find it so hard for us to have a problem with the masons because as you your self are saying how can the masons be evil when all your friends and idols are so good?
I think there is a big difference in the masons I am talking about and the masons you are, you are obviously in the lower chapters because you are not rich and you don�t have power. (Rich = more than 1 million $ in cash, power = CEO or President of a top multinational company)
The top masons use it to further their own goals get good people before they join the FREE MARKET, get them to do your under the table deals.
Masons have for hundreds of years helped their fellow masons. When top fellow masons help each other out like this for hundreds of years you get elite, these elite can then do as it pleases with and to the world because no one will have the power to challenge them.
I don�t have anything against the normal or ordinary mason except they will only be a normal mason until they get wealth and power then they will be sucked up by the power elite to do their bidding it may look like they are trying to help you and maybe they are, but they are just surely helping them selves.
But even the ordinary and good mason is doing as the top would like them to do, and that is to defend the masons to tell people that masons are good and there aren�t anything suspicious to the truth of Free Masonry, it is normal for people with power to band together in secret societies to help the FREE MARKET and the legitimate TRADING LAWS, off course I see so the P2 list and all the names there including Berlusconi, has nothing to do with nothing, in fact when you are writing the top names of your order in a separate order / list shouldn�t that tell you that something is wrong?

Again I am sorry for going off topic!


Baron Bilbo Baggins
Bilbo's Empire of the Neutral Zone

Ps: Leveller you are misunderstanding me on purpose if you read what I have written in here you would see that I am not contradicting myself, but they only reason you are posting against me is to post against me not because you have some incriminating fact that proves me wrong but because you have so low self esteem that you need to boost your own ego by acknowledging the fact that some share the same views at you.

�The grass is not, in fact, always greener on the other side of the fence. Fences have nothing to do with it. The grass is greenest where it is watered. When crossing over fences, carry water with you and tend the grass wherever you may be.�

Originally posted by NeonHelmet
cant see that top Masonic lodges like the P2 of the Italian chapter are infected with bad blood.

The P2 Lodge was not a "top" Lodge, it was just a regular Lodge... and as soon as it was discovered that members of P2 were engaging in non-Masonic behaviour, the Lodge was closed by the Italian Grand Orient.

The fact that everybody tries to point out how awful P2 was is just illustrative of the fact that there are no other proven examples of any Lodge acting in an "evil" way. And the fact that P2 was shut down immediately when the Grand Orient discovered what was happening illustrates that we are serious when we say we won't accept that kind of behaviour in Freemasonry.

I think there is a big difference in the masons I am talking about and the masons you are, you are obviously in the lower chapters because you are not rich and you don�t have power. (Rich = more than 1 million $ in cash, power = CEO or President of a top multinational company)

This is utter BS. Sorry for the poor language, but there's no other way to describe it. There is at least one guy in my Lodge that has over $ one million, and there are other guys who find it hard to scrape up the $120 for membership. There are several CEOs and other executives in my Lodge, and then there are those of us who are just busy worker bees. We're all brothers in Lodge. If you think there's a Lodge made up entirely of CEO millionaires, I suggest you do the following: i) provide some evidence, and ii) show how its relevant.

I don�t have anything against the normal or ordinary mason except they will only be a normal mason until they get wealth and power then they will be sucked up by the power elite to do their bidding it may look like they are trying to help you and maybe they are, but they are just surely helping them selves.

Proof?

But even the ordinary and good mason is doing as the top would like them to do, and that is to defend the masons to tell people that masons are good and there aren�t anything suspicious to the truth of Free Masonry,

No, the reason we do that is because what you're claiming is false, and secondarily because we love the order. There's absolutely no shame in defending yourself or your order against false accusations.

it is normal for people with power to band together in secret societies to help the FREE MARKET and the legitimate TRADING LAWS, off course I see so the P2 list and all the names there including Berlusconi, has nothing to do with nothing,

Again, P2 was disbanded as soon as the Grand Orient (the real "Top Masons" -- the Grand Lodge) discovered what was happening.

in fact when you are writing the top names of your order in a separate order / list

Proof?

Ps: Leveller you are misunderstanding me on purpose if you read what I have written in here you would see that I am not contradicting myself, but they only reason you are posting against me is to post against me not because you have some incriminating fact that proves me wrong but because you have so low self esteem that you need to boost your own ego by acknowledging the fact that some share the same views at you.

Then his ego should be very boosted -- most intelligent, reasonable people who know whereof they speak agree with him... whereas the only people who agree with you are Mr.Necros (a hate filled known fraud and liar), and Stancumans (possibly deranges (not by his own choice) or also a liar).

[edit on 17-8-2004 by AlexKennedy]