Serious Food for Thought!!

I was reading several posts today, mostly to do with either the militarization of the police and/or the loss of constitutional rights, and I was hit with a thought.

Most everyone on here (American at least) bemones how "they" or "the government" or the "the powers that be" won't follow the constitution. How we have lost our rights and how we the constitution is in shreds *the 1st, 2nd, and 4th being the most cited). We can blame the ignorant masses, or the education system, etc. etc. and those arguments would have merit. But I was hit by an interesting thought.

Why should "they, etc." follow the constitution? It's just a piece of paper, written by some men over 200 years ago. It has no validity really. Same with any oaths taken to "uphold and defend".

After all, we stopped believing in a book written by some men (inspired by God) over 2000. The minute we invalidated the Bible, we invalidated everything else.

Now before the "ATS athiests" jump on, I am not stating this to advocate for or against the Bible or belief in the God of the Bible (my own personal beliefs not withstanding). Nor do i wish to incite yet another, "well the beleivers of the Bible have foster X number of atrocities" bit either. After all Americans have done some bad things as well.

I am simply saying that if we don't need to belief in anything written by a supreme being, why should we hold to anything written by man???? We have established in our schools for well over 35+ years that a written book of laws, codes, ethics, and personal conduct should have no bearing in society. So what's the difference whether said texts are 2000 years ago, or 200 years ago?????

Really, we have trained a generation of kids, (now adults) that written rules don't really mean anything.....

reply to post by SrWingCommander


Yea why not just throw all our rights out the window and let those whom are already supremely rich just do as they please and make us do the dirty work for them.

we're lazy and we're cowards.

this is our only problem.

reply to post by SrWingCommander


When one officially sets to print an idea, a law, or an edict, it's indelible. It is wrote. We as humans like permanence. Therefore, the laws against murder, rape, theft, etc., are written in a permanent medium. It's something we can point to and say, "See?!? It says right here 'this is illegal!'" The Constitution are a set of laws put to print that outline how our government is to be run by its leaders. It isn't just a piece of paper, it's law put into a form for the "show me where it's written..." type of folks, which is to say, "people".

/TOA

reply to post by SrWingCommander


Comparing the Constitution to the bible? How dare you. The bible is a book. The Constitution is a paper that our founding fathers wrote to inspire a better world free of war and poverty. The bible is the biggest cause for war. Food for thought? Eat that troll.

Originally posted by SrWingCommander




Really, we have trained a generation of kids, (now adults) that written rules don't really mean anything.....

No we haven't! Most kids[now adults] still follow the rules, laws, and conform to a civilized society. Of course there are aberrations but by and large society still functions regardless of the Constitution or the Bible.....Thank God!

If there are groups that don't follow societal rules it's the megalithic structures like the military, the church, Corporations or entrenched bureaucracies.

Serious Food for Thought!!,

Broad brushes are hard to eat!

I personally agree with the OP, the Bible WAS the Constitution for our Founding Fathers, where do you think they got the formula from? Every single one of them were devote Christians, just because you have no faith doesn't change theirs. But thats not the topic. The Bible is an invalid book and ridiculed now more than ever, and seeing that the Constitution is directly influenced from the Bible, it too is in shreds. That's not an opinion. This country was founded with religion in mind, freedom of religion NOT freedom from religion, move to England for that. Just because you can't stand religion or the belief in a supreme being means nothing to America. We as a Nation are sinking fast because no one sees the Constitution as anything but paper (There's not even 5 politicians in our Government that actually uphold the Constitution like they should).

Sure its written down, but that no longer means anything. I can swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, but i sure as hell can still lie

reply to post by mb2591


i thought thats what is happening, and why we are on this site.?

reply to post by SrWingCommander


Wow! Nice way to invoke some serious grey matter there. I concur 100%, belief is for those that believe. Like may Americans we believe we live in a "Free Society" when in reality we do not. We believe we have a democracy when in reality we have a Republic with democratic under tones. Everyone in the communist party believes they are contributing to the greater good, in reality they are not.

Regardless of the theological persuassions of anyone, we as a people or you as an individual at the end of the day have one thing, and that is free will. You can do anything you want, the only thing that will prevent you is your will power to carry it out.

One thing is certain, no government or form of rulership has stood against the sands of time for long. Eventually they either adapt to change with thte times or they die. Where we stand right now I am not sure, but I hope humanity as a whole can figure it out.

Originally posted by SrWingCommander

Why should "they, etc." follow the constitution?

Simple answer: to preserve, as much as possible, liberty, order, & justice.

Originally posted by SrWingCommander
Why should "they, etc." follow the constitution? It's just a piece of paper, written by some men over 200 years ago. It has no validity really. Same with any oaths taken to "uphold and defend".

I absolutely agree with you. Sadly, from my experience, you are wasting your time having a meaningful discussion about this on ATS, because questioning the US Constitution engenders an emotional and hostile response from those who are stuck in their ways on the issue.

It's interesting that you should bring up the Bible, because I've noticed that many people have an unquestioning religious-like devotion to the US Constitution, whereby they practically worship the document as if it is some form of holy relic.

The way that Americans unquestioningly adopt the base assumption that the Constitution is indisputably correct, and the lack of critical thought which is applied before making this assumption, is also reminiscent of the more dogmatic and zealous religious believers.

The fact of the matter is that the founding fathers were just a motley collection of slave owners, genocidal maniacs, rapists, lechers and drunkards. Not really a group of people who you'd like to be setting the unchallengeable rules for your country !

So, a group of 50-odd dudes in 17-hundred-and-whenever wrote down a set of rules on some parchment ( if we're honest, many of them were probably still half-cut when they penned it ). Yet, today, they have an army of slavish followers who uphold these rules for no apparent logical or critical reason.

That's not to say that there aren't any good bits in the US Constitution, just that there really is no relevance in mindlessly and sentimentally holding onto every last word of it, as if it is some divine piece of paper which the American citizens have to bow down and venerate.

reply to post by Sherlock Holmes


Ok, there... talk about pissing off the red, white and bluers... Especially being from England and all.. LOL, seriously, don't put ALL of us Americans in that boat. Every government has its issues including the UK. Anyways, as I had previously stated it good to think of how these adapt and change over the years, even the Queen Mother is powerless against Parliment and the Prime Minister at the end of the day.

The constitution are ideals, of Men, who at the time no longer wanted to be under the drunken, slave owning, empire seeking british. Touche, just kidding but in the end both our countries are buddy buddy and on a new track to empiralistic peddling in the middle east.

Things will change, how they change is the real question.

reply to post by SrWingCommander


I seem to be understanding you a little differently than most, if not all, of the other posters. Please take the time to correct my thinking if I have missed your thought.

I'm interpreting you to mean that at one time the Bible was held up as a true and righteous guide to everything necessary because it was inspired by God. Then man created the Constitution, perhaps the most inspired and brilliant piece of political writing ever created.

Since then we have rendered both documents optional, and sent a society-wide message that they are both optional. In fact, we say that since these things, which have been honored, are optional, every other thing, written or not, is also optional. This may have been the major factor in creating a society where everything is optional, except for kneeling to those with a bigger club than you have.

But again, I may have missed your point and await correction.

They shouldn't follow it because it is written on paper. But because it illustrates some true principles most all people know inherently. Namely they can be boiled down to do not harm or oppress your fellow man. I have some issues with certain parts of the Constitution but it is mainly to restrain government not the people. The people got together and made a compact that if they allowed certain people to takes seats of government they must abide by these rules and principles of no harm no crime etc. Putting it on paper just preserves the agreement for reference. So its not just a piece of paper it is a set of mostly natural laws by which mean should treat each other when bringing government to bear for maximum freedom, mutual defense, and free trade.

reply to post by SrWingCommander


I believe you understand what "rights" and "laws" are better than most people. Certainly better than most people who like to cite them for the sake of argument.

The answer is that the constitution -is- just a piece of paper. It reflects the concepts and ideals regarding social/governmental decisions and structure as they were agreed upon by those who signed the document and the states that, by electorate proxy, ratified that document.

It's really as simple as - what happens when you are being mugged/raped? The constitution isn't going to come out of the sky and stop another person from violating you. It merely establishes that such behavior is not acceptable ... to people other than the person currently in a position where he/she can/will violate you.

It's a contest of wills - one that walks the razor's edge between peace and war. Those of us for smaller government and the preservation of the constitution can never have our 'right' to make a decision to resist away... but if a hundred men will and act to violate a single man's wife or daughter - it is more than likely going to happen, following his death/apprehension by superior strength.

That is the reality of it - and the meaning of "freedom isn't free." We have taken the term and contorted it to imply it requires the sacrifice of our own soldiers... but that is purely romanticism. It means the sacrifice of those willing to oppress our existence - those who realize they can use some application of force to seize the benefits from another's efforts.

The problem is that, in our particular case - those willing to use the government to make intrusive and oppressive laws (or those who seem to be under the impression it is a good thing) are part of our own society. It isn't another country/society threatening to invade - it is a conflict of lifestyles within a single society. That is why I say resistance to oppression walks a razor's edge.

reply to post by charles1952


That pretty much sums it up.

Many seem to be interpreting my OP as I don't beleive in the Constitution, when as an Independant conservative American I do. Well beleive would put almost religous tone on it. I agree that it is the law of the land and the founding document/blueprint of this country and should be followed. As a Christian I also beleive in the Bible as God's inspired word. That is neither here nor there.

My basic point was that at one time the Bible was pretty much revered (even by non believers) as the greatest piece of literature of the Western World, and the bedrock in terms of Western social contracts. Now it is scoffed at, even though most of our societial norms/constructs/social contracts are based (including the US Constitution) in part if not all of its basic philosophies. Once it was "thrown out" you basicly threw out the "need" to beleive in any basic social contract. Because we can simply "pick and choose" what's right or wrong, Now, I suppose that follows the 1st amendment, but on the flip side it doesn't really support a basic national construct for us to follow.

reply to post by josh2009s


I didn't compare them....I was making the point that when we throw out one code of ethics, we set the precedent to throw out all of them. A society has to have a concrete foundation. We no longer do, whether it is the Bible, the Constitution, or the Boy Scout Oath.