What is a 9/11 "Conspiracy Theorist"?

reply to post by GoodOlDave

He gave the order to the board, the board gave the order to their subsidiary's managament, the subsidiary's management gave orders to the supervisors, the supervisors gave orders to the security guards, the security guards allowed the evil gov't ninjas into the building, etc etc etc, involving hundeds of people in this supposedly "secret" conspiracy of yours.

This is an excellent point, how could so many people be involved? It might not have taken 100's to know exactly what was going on when wiring the building, but a lot of people would have been involved and some would have at least had some questions about it. Then again 1000's may have been in on it for the overall project. So how could so many be in on it? This is one part that many people have a problem with in trying to understand.

Ex military personal is a very likely source as these people have been drilled and trained to carry out orders, without question. The mercenary mentality is a common trait I would expect from those involved in this project. These are people who have seen war, suffering the mental consequence and are now just looking out for themselves the best they can. The horror and hypocrisy of conflict has left them with a damaged sense of humanity. With the promise of money it was just another job.

On the more extreme side I would not be surprised if MK Ultra style brainwashing has been utilized to create obedient servants for these duties. MK Ultra is on the congressional record and some hearings did take place in relation to it. The full project details where not uncovered and it is very reasonable to suspect these experiments have continued in some form. The Monarch Project is one example of the next generation mind control techniques with many other forms of trauma based mind control out there.

No, actually, I believe in conspiracy fact.

I know the conspiracy scene is full of a lot of misinformation, but so are governments as well.

Originally posted by kwakakev
This is an excellent point, how could so many people be involved? It might not have taken 100's to know exactly what was going on when wiring the building, but a lot of people would have been involved and some would have at least had some questions about it. Then again 1000's may have been in on it for the overall project. So how could so many be in on it? This is one part that many people have a problem with in trying to understand.

The problem is that the conspiracy mongors are seeing sinister secret plots under every rock to the point where this master conspiracy has ballooned to such absurd proportions that even an immigrant watering the lawn next the Pentagon is a planted disinformation agent to them. IN ADDITION to the Towers there was that whole building 7 thing. IN ADDITION to the towers and building 7 there was that whole Pentagon thing. IN ADDITION to the towers, building 7 and the Pentagon, there was that whole Shanksville crash thing. IN ADDITION to the towers, building 7, the Pentagon, and the Shanksville crash there's all these NIST studies, FEMA studies, MIT studies, Purdue studies, etc. IN ADDITION to etc etc there the fact that we showed our evidence proving it was a terrorist attack to our NATO allies, and after comparing it with what their own intelligence services were reporting, they found it legitimate enough to invoke article 5 for the first time in it's existence. And so on and so forth.

There'd have to be a HECK of a lot more than thousands to pull off this crazy sounding conspiracy. Try tens of thousands, and all it would take is one journalist to trace the family history of the dead passengers and discover they never really existed to upset the whole apple cart. At that point it would just be easier to fling hijacked aircraft into the buildings.

Originally posted by GoodOlDave
there's all these NIST studies, FEMA studies, MIT studies, Purdue studies, etc. IN ADDITION to etc etc there the fact that we showed our evidence proving it was a terrorist attack to our NATO allies, and after comparing it with what their own intelligence services were reporting, they found it legitimate enough to invoke article 5 for the first time in it's existence. And so on and so forth.

There'd have to be a HECK of a lot more than thousands to pull off this crazy sounding conspiracy.

So why can't you find a diagram of the layout of the horizontal beams in the core of either tower? Why don't we have a good explanation of how the top of the north tower could destroy everything below? That cannot be done without the distribution of steel and concrete.

Conspiracies are IRRELEVANT!

psik

Originally posted by psikeyhackr

So why can't you find a diagram of the layout of the horizontal beams in the core of either tower? Why don't we have a good explanation of how the top of the north tower could destroy everything below? That cannot be done without the distribution of steel and concrete.

So what are you saying, that because we don't know what happened to every nut, bolt, and door hinge during the physical progression of the collapse it necessarily must mean there's a conspiracy? I shouldn't need to point out that the conspiracy mongors are every bit as equally negligent in explaining how these controlled demolitions would have brought down the towers.

How about doing some computer modelling to show proof of concept? If NIST could do it then you can do it.

Originally posted by GoodOlDave

Originally posted by psikeyhackr

So why can't you find a diagram of the layout of the horizontal beams in the core of either tower? Why don't we have a good explanation of how the top of the north tower could destroy everything below? That cannot be done without the distribution of steel and concrete.

So what are you saying, that because we don't know what happened to every nut, bolt, and door hinge during the physical progression of the collapse it necessarily must mean there's a conspiracy? I shouldn't need to point out that the conspiracy mongors are every bit as equally negligent in explaining how these controlled demolitions would have brought down the towers.

How about doing some computer modelling to show proof of concept? If NIST could do it then you can do it.

Do you consider this EXAGGERATED CRAP to be an argument?

I didn't say anything about every nut and bolt. Do you think it is unreasonable to expect to know the amount of structural steel and concrete to within maybe 5 tons on each level of the buildings? Just one concrete floor slab outside the core weighed 600 tons. When do we ever hear that? I had to compute it from the dimensions. I don't know the weight of all of the pans and trusses that held that concrete. I have never seen it.

I don't give a damn about ANY CONSPIRACIES. But if it was physically possible for NORMAL AIRLINERS to do that to a couple of the largest buildings ever constructed then the nation that put men on the Moon should be able to explain in very good detail. The distributions of steel and concrete down the buildings should be simple and readily available.

I already did a Python program and provided a link to the source code of a "magical collapse" with no supports that had to be destroyed. It isn't 100% accurate because that can't be done without knowing the tons of steel and tons of concrete that were on every level. But I come up with 12 seconds for a collapse time and a real building that had to have supports must have taken A LOT LONGER. So the whole idea of the building coming down in ELEVEN SECONDS which is what Dr. Sunder of the NIST said is totally ridiculous.

So something more than the plane had to be involved.

There had to be around 1500 feet of horizontal steel beams on every level which we don't have data on and you want to compare that to bolts and door hinges. That is why this crap drags on and on and on. People talking bullsh#.

psik

this is excellent.....very complete....NIST was ridiculous, and, now I know why.....(other than it was a government slime job....both 911 AND the NIST report!)I feel that, the American people have "moved on", and don't want to know what really happened....so, I am glad that this site, and others are keeping the story alive....

reply to post by _BoneZ_

Bones excellent thread, I believe if the whole truth ever gets out it will start WW3 that is why the government has used every available media propaganda tool to deceive the world.

In my opinion people who want to believe in our government and their lies lack any logical thinking and are afraid of what the truth is, it is simple to stay in denial and for some in here they think insulting the truth movement and scoffing at all the credible science that proves the OS is a lie will make them look credible. I have yet to see anyone of these OS defenders produce any science to support their *opinions, and claims.*
The only thing that the people who defend the OS can do is ridicule everyone who dares to question or have a different opinion than them as we see demonstrated in this thread. These people do not have any credibility in my opinion.

The NIST report was proven a fraud and the people that were able to prove it used science and they confronted NIST about their pseudo-science. NIST cannot or will not address the many questions that architects and engineers have asked of NIST. NIST and the governments silence on serious questions concerning their reports speak volumes to the rest of the world.

Congress has demonstrated 911 Truths= enemy or terrorists.
Conspiracy theories are America’s enemy, (George W Bush) you are with us or you are against us, that includes the government OS of 911.

Originally posted by GoodOlDave
No, actually, I believe in conspiracy fact.

Yes, GoodOlDave. We know that you claim that you do. However, your lack of action would suggest otherwise.

Your presence is still required in this thread.

You claimed that there was a famous Ingersoll photo showing the light pole lying on top of the cab. Please prove this, so it can be taken as fact.

Your refusal to address this issue is noted, GoodOlDave. Casual readers of this thread can clearly see that you have avoided proving your claim for more than a week.

Excellent thread OP s&f as always. NIST providing that disclaimer to their final report and refusing to show their work and evidence is the height of arrogance.It's not surprising that they avoid any questions it's because they have no answers.Their computer simulations have been proven to be false and they have been forced to admit to the freefall of WTC7 and yet,we are expected to just take their word for it just like the Kean Commission?

Originally posted by hooper
reply to post by deathboxsk8er08

 

If you put fear into people you can get them to do anything you want.

That's a load of crap. In fact, a fear and panic infected population is a study in the unpredictable and the least likely to follow direction.

???
Not when there is a trusting entity that promises to take care of them. i.e. the government..i.e. your parents

How do you think the government is getting the majority of Americans to fore-go there constitutional rights with this TSA fiasco. Or pay taxes when the law was never ratified?

Now if aliens all of the sudden invaded Earth, your point would stand, for most (obviously children would still turn to their parents for direction and support), but the rest of the world would know that our government has no ability to save us should the ET's decide to treat us like cockroaches. Then, yeah....there would be chaos and unpredictable behavior.

reply to post by GoodOlDave

IN ADDITION to etc etc there the fact that we showed our evidence proving it was a terrorist attack to our NATO allies, and after comparing it with what their own intelligence services were reporting, they found it legitimate enough to invoke article 5 for the first time in it's existence.

At the time the science was not in so it was left in the hands of intelligence reports to pin the blame and name a suspect. There are indications that MI5 knew the reports where bogus, or at least has serious questions about them. But with George Bush and Tony Blair accepting and promoting this official story the direction of action is set. With powerful people behind the scenes like Henry Kissinger and Rupert Murdock supporting this direction a lot of control was applied in how the story came out and the repercussions taken.

Overall millions of people have been involved in this event with its actions and repercussions. As for who actually understood the overall situation and misdirected the investigations is a lot smaller. The website whodidit.org... names 103 key suspects directly involved in the 9/11 crime with its planning, execution and subsequent cover up. It is very likely there are others considering some of the names and connections on the list.

At the time I believed the official story despite a few little questions because the tv told me so, I had trust in it. Since reviewing events I understand the confusion you have with the conspiracy scene as it is very messy with lots of different version of events and ideas. When I compare the information provided by NIST and ae911truth.org the conclusions are clear. Do you want to live in a world governed by facts or fiction?

Originally posted by psikeyhackr
There had to be around 1500 feet of horizontal steel beams on every level which we don't have data on and you want to compare that to bolts and door hinges. That is why this crap drags on and on and on. People talking bullsh#.

psik

Well then something certainly stinks in the state of ATS because I was specifically told by one of your fellow conspiracy mongors here that each floor had the capability of supporting four times its own weight, and I have no reason to refute it. Take four floors, pile them on top of each other, and that's how much weight each floor could hold, and because every floor was held in air by horizontal support braces running from the internal core to the outer perimeter, it means every floor has the exact same load bearing capacity as every other floor. The first floor beneath the impact area was hit with the weight of some FIFTEEN floors (the section of building above the impact area) which is beyond its load bearing capacity regardless of how you look at it.

Your needing to know whether each floor happened to be 20 tons, fifteen tons, or whatever, isn't research- it's grasping at straws in desperation becuase you know you can't find even a microbe of tangible evidence of any conspiracy so you have to resort to calculating out trivial details like what the precise tonnage of each floor is to find this conspiracy you're "so sure" has to be there somewhere. When I say that you people WANT these conspiracy stories of yours to be true, how are you showing me to be incorrect, exactly?

Originally posted by GoodOlDave

Originally posted by psikeyhackr
There had to be around 1500 feet of horizontal steel beams on every level which we don't have data on and you want to compare that to bolts and door hinges. That is why this crap drags on and on and on. People talking bullsh#.

psik

Well then something certainly stinks in the state of ATS because I was specifically told by one of your fellow conspiracy mongors here that each floor had the capability of supporting four times its own weight, and I have no reason to refute it. Take four floors, pile them on top of each other, and that's how much weight each floor could hold, and because every floor was held in air by horizontal support braces running from the internal core to the outer perimeter, it means every floor has the exact same load bearing capacity as every other floor. The first floor beneath the impact area was hit with the weight of some FIFTEEN floors (the section of building above the impact area) which is beyond its load bearing capacity regardless of how you look at it.

Your needing to know whether each floor happened to be 20 tons, fifteen tons, or whatever, isn't research- it's grasping at straws in desperation becuase you know you can't find even a microbe of tangible evidence of any conspiracy so you have to resort to calculating out trivial details like what the precise tonnage of each floor is to find this conspiracy you're "so sure" has to be there somewhere. When I say that you people WANT these conspiracy stories of yours to be true, how are you showing me to be incorrect, exactly?

So apparently you can't read.

In my posts I make a point of distinguishing between FLOORS and LEVELS. The word FLOOR can be ambiguous. I think some people confuse the issue deliberately.

There is the FLOOR Assembly outside the core held up by 35 and 60 foot rebar trusses.

Then there is the CORE with vertical columns connected by horizontal beams. When I say LEVEL I mean the everything within a 12 foot height including one floor assembly and the perimeter columns. When I say FLOOR I am talking about the 206 foot square floor slab outside the core and the pans and trusses.

I do not know or CARE how you associate me with people you call conspiracy mongers or how much you confuse or exaggerate what we say.

Every LEVEL of every skyscraper must support all of the weight of all of the LEVELS above it. What a FLOOR can hold is a separate issue. That is the LIVE LOAD but the LEVELS below must hold the live load also.

If you don't distinguish FLOOR and LEVELS either accidentally or deliberately that is your problem. But for the north tower 15 LEVELS came down and the core came down on the core. I have no reason to think that the 15 FLOORS became separated from the core. So you explain how the core was destroyed.

The tube-in-tube design of the WTC towers are used to cause confusion in my opinion and the supposed collapse is blamed on that design but then we are not given accurate data on the details of the design. I have never seen a layout for the horizontal beams in the core. Though the blueprints show the men's and women's toilets in the core.

psik

Originally posted by psikeyhackr
Then there is the CORE with vertical columns connected by horizontal beams. When I say LEVEL I mean the everything within a 12 foot height including one floor assembly and the perimeter columns. When I say FLOOR I am talking about the 206 foot square floor slab outside the core and the pans and trusses.

I do not know or CARE how you associate me with people you call conspiracy mongers or how much you confuse or exaggerate what we say.

Every LEVEL of every skyscraper must support all of the weight of all of the LEVELS above it. What a FLOOR can hold is a separate issue. That is the LIVE LOAD but the LEVELS below must hold the live load also.

If you don't distinguish FLOOR and LEVELS either accidentally or deliberately that is your problem. But for the north tower 15 LEVELS came down and the core came down on the core. I have no reason to think that the 15 FLOORS became separated from the core. So you explain how the core was destroyed.

Because when that first floor collapsed, it hit the floor below it. That floor was supported by a horizontal brace attached to a vertical column, so when the horizontal brace was pushed down from the impact, the vertical column it was connected to was yanked sideways by its connection point. The vertical column bent, lost its structural integrity, and the upper section of the building it was formally holding up collapsed and did the rest. Like this example they preserved and stored in that hanger at JFK:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/6cc309d1f98a.jpg[/atsimg]

You can call me dishonest, you can call me stupid, or you can even accuse me of kicking pregnant dogs, as I really don't care in the least. The only thing I want to hear from you is how the [censored] these imaginary "secret thermite bombs" of yours caused this type of damage, 'cause I can definitely tell you how this type of damage was caused by the immense force from gigantic amounts of wreckage crashing down onto it.

Originally posted by GoodOlDave
Because when that first floor collapsed, it hit the floor below it. That floor was supported by a horizontal brace attached to a vertical column, so when the horizontal brace was pushed down from the impact, the vertical column it was connected to was yanked sideways by its connection point. The vertical column bent, lost its structural integrity, and the upper section of the building it was formally holding up collapsed and did the rest. Like this example they preserved and stored in that hanger at JFK:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/6cc309d1f98a.jpg[/atsimg]

You can call me dishonest, you can call me stupid, or you can even accuse me of kicking pregnant dogs, as I really don't care in the least. The only thing I want to hear from you is how the [censored] these imaginary "secret thermite bombs" of yours caused this type of damage, 'cause I can definitely tell you how this type of damage was caused by the immense force from gigantic amounts of wreckage crashing down onto it.

You have no evidence whatsoever about what the columns in the core did. You are just talking. That picture does not tell us where that steel came from in the building whether it was a column or a horizontal beam from the core. You keep saying "floor" but I don't know if you are talking about the slab outside of the core or not. There were slabs in the core outside of the elevators but they were not supported by trusses like the outer core. So since I cannot tell what you are talking about there is no point in my responding to you.

I have never said anything about thermite any bombs so you are just associating me with you delusion of "conspiracy mongers".

psik

As for this photo with the bent steel beam, I have come across one theory that a hydrogen based explosion is responsible and capable of bending thick beams. It would explain why there have been no traces (except thermate) of more standard explosives like C4. I have not fully been through this theory to confirm or deny it, but does appear reasonable on the surface.

Originally posted by psikeyhackr

You have no evidence whatsoever about what the columns in the core did. You are just talking. That picture does not tell us where that steel came from in the building whether it was a column or a horizontal beam from the core. You keep saying "floor" but I don't know if you are talking about the slab outside of the core or not. There were slabs in the core outside of the elevators but they were not supported by trusses like the outer core. So since I cannot tell what you are talking about there is no point in my responding to you.

You're waffling. I never mentioned anything about anything made of concrete. I'm talking about the vertical columns like you asked me to, and I specifically showed you a section of vertical support column preserved from the WTC so it's idiotic to claim "I have no evidence whatsoever". You can see with your own eyes what happened to the core columns. This section wasn't cut, it wasn't bent by explosives, and it certainly wasn't disintergrated by heat rays from Martian war machines. It was bent from the mechanical forces of the collapse itself. If you're attempting to claim anything otherwise, then you're lying.

And yes, this is a vertical column. The vertical columns were all hollow box columns, with the core columns being rectangular while the exterior perimeter were square, and with the column being wider than it is thicker this is almost certainly one of the core columns. You can even see what happened to it- something was attached to this column (almost certainly a horizontal floor brace) at the location of the beam where that wooden block is ,and it was yanked sideways in that direction which caused it to bend at that specific point. Go ahead and prove me wrong.

I have never said anything about thermite any bombs so you are just associating me with you delusion of "conspiracy mongers".

Excuse me, but I'm not the one making up these stupid claims of secret gov't ninjas sneaking in and planting invisible controlled demolitions for some sinister plot to take over the world. Your fellow conspiracy theorists are. Take your umbrage over such delusion up with those con artists like Richard Gage, not me.

For one thing, I absolutely guarantee that Gage isn't showing you inconvenient details like this steel beam. Why would he? He's trying to make a living by suckering people that the towers were destroyed by controlled demolitions so he's certainly not going to let you know about anything that refutes the idea.

Originally posted by GoodOlDave

Originally posted by psikeyhackr

You have no evidence whatsoever about what the columns in the core did. You are just talking. That picture does not tell us where that steel came from in the building whether it was a column or a horizontal beam from the core. You keep saying "floor" but I don't know if you are talking about the slab outside of the core or not. There were slabs in the core outside of the elevators but they were not supported by trusses like the outer core. So since I cannot tell what you are talking about there is no point in my responding to you.

You're waffling. I never mentioned anything about anything made of concrete. I'm talking about the vertical columns like you asked me to, and I specifically showed you a section of vertical support column preserved from the WTC so it's idiotic to claim "I have no evidence whatsoever".

Where is your evidence that it is a vertical columns section and not a horizontal beam from the core?

Even if it is a vertical columns you have no explanation of what caused it. If the top of the north tower could destroy everything below then why aren't we told the amount of steel on every level? Didn't that have to be determined to construct the building.

The steel had to hold up the CONCRETE. So not talking about the concrete in what you CLAIM was a gravitational collapse is nonsense. I am not interested in DEBATING against you. This is about resolving a grade school physics problem. The longer it takes to get resolved the more stupid the people that can't figure it out will look.

DUH, do skyscrapers have to hold themselves up? So how did the steel have to be distributed? So where is accurate data from official sources on the distributions of steel and concrete.

9/11 is the biggest joke in scientific history.

psik

reply to post by psikeyhackr

This is about resolving a grade school physics problem. The longer it takes to get resolved the more stupid the people that can't figure it out will look.

DUH, do skyscrapers have to hold themselves up? So how did the steel have to be distributed? So where is accurate data from official sources on the distributions of steel and concrete.

No wait, you said you already solved the problem and reached your conclusions so what do you need the data for? The issue, as far as you are concerned, is closed. No more data required. Closed subject.

Originally posted by hooper
reply to post by psikeyhackr

 

This is about resolving a grade school physics problem. The longer it takes to get resolved the more stupid the people that can't figure it out will look.

DUH, do skyscrapers have to hold themselves up? So how did the steel have to be distributed? So where is accurate data from official sources on the distributions of steel and concrete.

No wait, you said you already solved the problem and reached your conclusions so what do you need the data for? The issue, as far as you are concerned, is closed. No more data required. Closed subject.

Is playing word games all you can do?

Here is my solution:

www.youtube.com...

Where is your physical model that can be completely collapsed by less than its top 15%?

Which engineering school has made a model that can completely collapse?

psik