God is GOOD and I will defend Him. A Challenge for Atheists

Originally posted by SuperiorEd
If you want to stay in your box, feel free.

Oh the irony of that statement. You are discussing a good topic, but your emphasis on the "Bible" and obviously the "Christian" God is where you are falling short.

Let me just express something very simple for you. If God is all knowing and has been around for the entire length of man's existence and beyond, do you not think it is extremely hypocritical and slightly arrogant of you, and any other religious person who follows a "set" religious doctrine to state that "your" version of God, "your" holy book is the right one?

You're basing your thoughts on 2000 years of history. The book of Matthew was not written in 100 AD, do more research, yet again.

The history of our planet, and our existence is a little longer than 2000 years. If you wish to go back to the earliest known historical texts, why are you not bowing to the Sumerian Gods? You are the one in a box, the religious doctrine box. You are the one with the blinkers firmly attached to your head like an ass (as in donkey).

All you fervent religious people are managing to do, and have been for the last 100 years or so is prove how ridiculous the world has been since Rome and it's various bodies managed to enslave all of you like good little sheeple with this claptrap. Believe what you want, but don't even attempt to make any of us believe, because most of us deny ignorance, we do not embrace it.

T

reply to post by SuperiorEd


You wrote to Torqpoc:

["I can't help you if you don't realize that Matthew 24 was written 1900 years ago and describes today's world. It tells us about today from the past. It explains what is happening now from our previous perspective. This means that God can draw the future into the past for us to see as it comes by our view. This is drawing the future into the past. God has been there, is there and is everywhere."]

And neither can it be helped, if YOU don't realize that the vedas and the buddist texts were written even earlier and BETTER describe reality (from a scientific perspective), than your mythology does.

Quote: [" Man cannot travel back in time to leave messages. Man can, however, draw his past into the future as a new choice. When you make a poor choice, this creates your past. You draw on this experience to make a new choice in the future. When you make a new choice, the new outcome creates a better past. We have the ability to work toward a better future. God has this ability as well as working the other direction."]

The 'god' part of it is an assumption.

Quote: ["God has the ability to work both way in time. Are you so surprised that this could be possible for the creator of Time, Space, Matter and Energy? He can see from the future and also from the past forward. I can't help you if you don't understand how time works for a God that is not bound by it. You doubt God by limiting Him in your mind. He has no limits. He is infinity for every opposite. High low, fast slow, and yes, past future."]

PREACHING assumptions don't turn them into general truths. Your premises are NOT valid except for you.

It's arrogance to try to impose such premises on other people just by preaching at opposition.

Quote: [".You demonize me for thinking beyond my tiny awareness."]

You initated the whole process by (completely without any justification) trying to turn subjective faith into objective knowledge.

Quote: ["We live in an amazing universe and I am bold enough to examine the evidence from two perspectives, both science and religion. I do not confine myself to one box as I examine all perspectives and weigh the evidence. The Bible is the only solid foundation available and the most reliable to meet the requirements of what is observed in science."]

What you introduce as scientific procedure has nothing to do with scientific procedure. I doubt, that you even know the basics of it.

reply to post by SuperiorEd


You wrote to vjr1113:

["I teach High School"]

As I used to do. Mathematics.

Quote: ["I can spot the language, writing style and use of wording a mile away. Maybe I am wrong. How old are you?"]

What importance has that? I'm 65+, so I must be VERY wise, if age is an indication.

Quote: ["Give yourself time to live life before you judge God."]

What about all the elderly muslims, tao'ists, buddhists, jain, tantrics, hindus, hews, wiccas, ....... (not to forget elderly atheists)

Quote:

["I have my own doubts about my faith and this is the reason I put my perspective out there to others. I test myself and my notions of truth daily. It is presumptuous to jump the gun on this as we still have lives to live, wisdom to gain and characters to grow."]

The way this manifests, it looks more like as a testing of rhetorical skills, rather than a rational testing of the intrinsics of faith per se.....not meant as a character-attack, but as a manifestation of the choice between the positions of either subjective preachings or objective procedure (or intellectually dishonest: An erasing of the differences between such positions).

The Word is the epicenter of our history. This is Logos in John 1. The Bible is the center point for all other ancient texts. I've read as much of them as I can and nothing compares. As an example, I have read most of the ancient Egyptian papyrus documents. They all read from the perspective of man's pride and a pagan viewpoint of many gods. One stands out.

The Maxims of Ptahhotep, 5th dynasty, is likely the writings of Joseph from the last verses of the Bible. There is a difference. The Maxims are night and day away and read like a biblical text.

Next, you have Confucius and Buddha. Both were obviously seeing truth, but apart from the biblical text, yet strikingly similar. The Dhammapada mirrors the ethics in the Bible. Confucius mirrors virtue and government in the Bible. Each of these characters came 500 years before Christ and had a similar impact on the world.

Confucius was ethics, education and government.

Buddha was overcoming the ego and animal nature.

Christ was overcoming the world with love for others.

Each message is valuable to our perspectives today. When you combine these and others like Rumi the Sufi, you begin to notice a pattern. Like Socrates, none of these individuals wrote any of their words down themselves.

Now go to an article that I have written and see the larger picture. As I said, Christ was the Word that wrote the entire story for us to see. It is done in love. The Word literally created the image that we are in. Again. Read this article and you will expand your box. LINK

Originally posted by torqpoc

Originally posted by SuperiorEd
If you want to stay in your box, feel free.

Oh the irony of that statement. You are discussing a good topic, but your emphasis on the "Bible" and obviously the "Christian" God is where you are falling short.

Let me just express something very simple for you. If God is all knowing and has been around for the entire length of man's existence and beyond, do you not think it is extremely hypocritical and slightly arrogant of you, and any other religious person who follows a "set" religious doctrine to state that "your" version of God, "your" holy book is the right one?

You're basing your thoughts on 2000 years of history. The book of Matthew was not written in 100 AD, do more research, yet again.

The history of our planet, and our existence is a little longer than 2000 years. If you wish to go back to the earliest known historical texts, why are you not bowing to the Sumerian Gods? You are the one in a box, the religious doctrine box. You are the one with the blinkers firmly attached to your head like an ass (as in donkey).

All you fervent religious people are managing to do, and have been for the last 100 years or so is prove how ridiculous the world has been since Rome and it's various bodies managed to enslave all of you like good little sheeple with this claptrap. Believe what you want, but don't even attempt to make any of us believe, because most of us deny ignorance, we do not embrace it.

T

edit on 14-7-2011 by torqpoc because: (no reason given)

Buddha was 400 BC as was Confucius (500). Genesis is much earlier (1400 BC). Hermes, much earlier. Enoch, much earlier. Jasher, much earlier. The trade routes provided the eastern nations with their information. This also works the other way around the world. All seven continents have a piece of the whole.

Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

You wrote to Torqpoc:

["I can't help you if you don't realize that Matthew 24 was written 1900 years ago and describes today's world. It tells us about today from the past. It explains what is happening now from our previous perspective. This means that God can draw the future into the past for us to see as it comes by our view. This is drawing the future into the past. God has been there, is there and is everywhere."]

And neither can it be helped, if YOU don't realize that the vedas and the buddist texts were written even earlier and BETTER describe reality (from a scientific perspective), than your mythology does.

Quote: [" Man cannot travel back in time to leave messages. Man can, however, draw his past into the future as a new choice. When you make a poor choice, this creates your past. You draw on this experience to make a new choice in the future. When you make a new choice, the new outcome creates a better past. We have the ability to work toward a better future. God has this ability as well as working the other direction."]

The 'god' part of it is an assumption.

Quote: ["God has the ability to work both way in time. Are you so surprised that this could be possible for the creator of Time, Space, Matter and Energy? He can see from the future and also from the past forward. I can't help you if you don't understand how time works for a God that is not bound by it. You doubt God by limiting Him in your mind. He has no limits. He is infinity for every opposite. High low, fast slow, and yes, past future."]

PREACHING assumptions don't turn them into general truths. Your premises are NOT valid except for you.

It's arrogance to try to impose such premises on other people just by preaching at opposition.

Quote: [".You demonize me for thinking beyond my tiny awareness."]

You initated the whole process by (completely without any justification) trying to turn subjective faith into objective knowledge.

Quote: ["We live in an amazing universe and I am bold enough to examine the evidence from two perspectives, both science and religion. I do not confine myself to one box as I examine all perspectives and weigh the evidence. The Bible is the only solid foundation available and the most reliable to meet the requirements of what is observed in science."]

What you introduce as scientific procedure has nothing to do with scientific procedure. I doubt, that you even know the basics of it.

edit on 14-7-2011 by bogomil because: grammar

This is about the other user who replied using texting lingo (ppl) and no capitalization with incomplete sentences. Since you taught, then think back. Put the teacher in God's place in the classroom. God has his classroom here on earth with us.

If a teenager fails to heed the warnings of his teacher, he is doing it from a platform of rebellion and pride. On the other side of this, the teacher is looking out for the future interests of the student. As the student exits the classroom, he enters the real world only to find out that opportunity knocks once. The more we open ourselves up to opportunity, the more it becomes available. As the student misses each opportunity from poor writing skills, he thinks back to the teacher that tried to warn him. He suffers at the hands, not of the teacher, but of his own pride and ignorance to truth. The teacher is always right. Wisdom and virtue speaks, but do we listen?

Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

You wrote to vjr1113:

["I teach High School"]

As I used to do. Mathematics.

Quote: ["I can spot the language, writing style and use of wording a mile away. Maybe I am wrong. How old are you?"]

What importance has that? I'm 65+, so I must be VERY wise, if age is an indication.

Quote: ["Give yourself time to live life before you judge God."]

What about all the elderly muslims, tao'ists, buddhists, jain, tantrics, hindus, hews, wiccas, ....... (not to forget elderly atheists)

Quote:

["I have my own doubts about my faith and this is the reason I put my perspective out there to others. I test myself and my notions of truth daily. It is presumptuous to jump the gun on this as we still have lives to live, wisdom to gain and characters to grow."]

The way this manifests, it looks more like as a testing of rhetorical skills, rather than a rational testing of the intrinsics of faith per se.....not meant as a character-attack, but as a manifestation of the choice between the positions of either subjective preachings or objective procedure (or intellectually dishonest: An erasing of the differences between such positions).

edit on 14-7-2011 by SuperiorEd because: (no reason given)

Originally posted by SuperiorEd

Buddha was 400 BC as was Confucius (500). Genesis is much earlier (1400 BC). Hermes, much earlier. Enoch, much earlier. Jasher, much earlier. The trade routes provided the eastern nations with their information. This also works the other way around the world. All seven continents have a piece of the whole.

Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

You wrote to Torqpoc:

["I can't help you if you don't realize that Matthew 24 was written 1900 years ago and describes today's world. It tells us about today from the past. It explains what is happening now from our previous perspective. This means that God can draw the future into the past for us to see as it comes by our view. This is drawing the future into the past. God has been there, is there and is everywhere."]

And neither can it be helped, if YOU don't realize that the vedas and the buddist texts were written even earlier and BETTER describe reality (from a scientific perspective), than your mythology does.

Quote: [" Man cannot travel back in time to leave messages. Man can, however, draw his past into the future as a new choice. When you make a poor choice, this creates your past. You draw on this experience to make a new choice in the future. When you make a new choice, the new outcome creates a better past. We have the ability to work toward a better future. God has this ability as well as working the other direction."]

The 'god' part of it is an assumption.

Quote: ["God has the ability to work both way in time. Are you so surprised that this could be possible for the creator of Time, Space, Matter and Energy? He can see from the future and also from the past forward. I can't help you if you don't understand how time works for a God that is not bound by it. You doubt God by limiting Him in your mind. He has no limits. He is infinity for every opposite. High low, fast slow, and yes, past future."]

PREACHING assumptions don't turn them into general truths. Your premises are NOT valid except for you.

It's arrogance to try to impose such premises on other people just by preaching at opposition.

Quote: [".You demonize me for thinking beyond my tiny awareness."]

You initated the whole process by (completely without any justification) trying to turn subjective faith into objective knowledge.

Quote: ["We live in an amazing universe and I am bold enough to examine the evidence from two perspectives, both science and religion. I do not confine myself to one box as I examine all perspectives and weigh the evidence. The Bible is the only solid foundation available and the most reliable to meet the requirements of what is observed in science."]

What you introduce as scientific procedure has nothing to do with scientific procedure. I doubt, that you even know the basics of it.

edit on 14-7-2011 by bogomil because: grammar

I referred to your text, and not to later additions or changes in your reference-points.

reply to post by SuperiorEd


You wrote:

["Since you taught, then think back. Put the teacher in God's place in the classroom. God has his classroom here on earth with us."]

I don't operate from meaningless allegories, based on mythological assumptions.

Quote: ["If a teenager fails to heed the warnings of his teacher, he is doing it from a platform of rebellion and pride. On the other side of this, the teacher is looking out for the future interests of the student. As the student exits the classroom, he enters the real world only to find out that opportunity knocks once."]

Sorry, this is not a church, where preachings automatically are accepted as being of value. This means nothing to me, and I must admit, that your insistence by using such an approach surprises me. It's a waste of time for both of us.

PS This is my last response on this thread.

The attitude a defiant student personifies in the classroom is similar to that of someone who is in rebellion against God. Attitude is the key motivator that shows up in a students behavior with things like homework and the ability to pay attention in class. This is tied to the basic needs that are met (or not met) at home by the family. Needs are critical. If a student does not have basic needs met at home, the focus at school is on the missing needs and not the task of seeking education. This is the same for the person seeking satisfaction from life. Two methods are used. Either they seek virtue or they seek vice, with all points in between. As I have said before, truth is never removed from virtue. When virtue is lacking, truth stings and hurts. This is reflected in the person hearing the truth. The person delivering the truth is only stating the obvious.

In my book, I list six motivators that identify most students crossing through a typical classroom. This list is the same for most people who go through life. God is good because He can take the non-motivator and turn Him around to become the self-motivator. The ideal is the self-motivator for all of us. The self motivators are never far form virtue, as reflected in their families. The non-motivator is never far from the missing needs that are left behind by the family. Religion plays a key role in needs being met at home for children. Anywhere you find a lack in virtue, you find kids that are focused on needs and not on seeking education. The closer we are to God, the closer we are to virtue. Kids that come from a home built on a foundation of virtue will reflect the same motivator type at school. Here is the 2nd chapter form my book. LINK

We can all find ourselves on the list at one time or another in our lives.

Self Motivator

The self motivator has a strong desire to please others and be respected. They strive for perfection at all times. This student exhibits repetitive positive behavior that produces lasting respect and adoration from others. This student’s actions are motivational to others, and self motivators are generally well liked. They have many friends, have high self-esteem, and are seen as smart and talented. They typically gain the most in life.

Social Motivator

The social motivator constantly seeks conversation with others to build self-esteem. They miss what is most important for the future. Typically, they lack the skills and knowledge necessary to succeed at a high level, which compounds over time through lack of focus. Despite this, they do share some random characteristics with the self-motivator and may be successful in some ways and to varying degrees.

Attention Motivator

The attention motivator has an abnormal need for attention. They display repetitive actions to make themselves the center of attention. They let their personality interfere with the class and are a distraction to others. They are typically the students who are constantly in trouble and lose respect from their peers and leaders. Their actions lower their self-esteem.

Defiant Motivator

The defiant motivator lashes out to get attention. They exhibit repetitive actions to make themselves the center of attention. When asked to stop, the students become defiant and often feel mistreated after constant negative attention is focused their direction. This type of student frequently visits the office or receives referrals. The defiant motivator never sees himself or herself at fault.

Revenge Motivator

The revenge motivator is a defiant motivator who regularly hurts others physically or psychologically through comments and behavior. These students receive no respect from others in return and are routinely picked on. They often lash out with violent acts.

Non-Motivator

The non-motivator is helpless and feels inadequate. They typically wish not to be seen and hide from responsibility. They reject the smallest of educational demands placed on them. This student almost never has classroom materials. They have low self-esteem due mostly from a lack of self-motivating actions. They will often exhibit qualities of the revenge motivator.

Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

You wrote:

["Since you taught, then think back. Put the teacher in God's place in the classroom. God has his classroom here on earth with us."]

I don't operate from meaningless allegories, based on mythological assumptions.

Quote: ["If a teenager fails to heed the warnings of his teacher, he is doing it from a platform of rebellion and pride. On the other side of this, the teacher is looking out for the future interests of the student. As the student exits the classroom, he enters the real world only to find out that opportunity knocks once."]

Sorry, this is not a church, where preachings automatically are accepted as being of value. This means nothing to me, and I must admit, that your insistence by using such an approach surprises me. It's a waste of time for both of us.

PS This is my last response on this thread.

Originally posted by SuperiorEd
Read this article and you will expand your box.

If you enjoy having your box expanded, go for it. Personally, i'd rather keep mine exactly as it is, thanks!

As for the rest, you're delluded. Stop trying to enlighten me and others with your narrow minded recounting of history. The Bible is a copy paste job of multiple sources before it. Thousands of years before it.

For an academic you sure are lacking brain power.

T

We all have free will. You made the choice to be here. I have only shared a perspective. Speaking to the subject. They're all good words with positive intent. The way the words speak has nothing to do with me.

Originally posted by torqpoc

Originally posted by SuperiorEd
Read this article and you will expand your box.

If you enjoy having your box expanded, go for it. Personally, i'd rather keep mine exactly as it is, thanks!

As for the rest, you're delluded. Stop trying to enlighten me and others with your narrow minded recounting of history. The Bible is a copy paste job of multiple sources before it. Thousands of years before it.

For an academic you sure are lacking brain power.

T

Dude Atheists don't believe in god they will deny any religion out there.

when you get their opinion on what happens after death, they just sit there with a plain face and thinking of what to write next

then they come up with something that i just had to laugh at.

"when we die we see what we saw before we were born" oh really??? then by this theory we must have died several times over and over and not even noticed a thing and be born onto a new body...

but then i question my self how could such a thing happen? it CANT once you're gone you're gone for GOOD

reply to post by bogomil


Matthew 24, was written a long long time ago, and in verse 34, it states "Verily, I say unto you. This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled". Christ told his disciples that some standing there would not visit death, they would see his return. THAT generation. Not 2000 years in the future. "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily, I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.: Mt. 16: 27-28. Not the transfiguration, HIS KINGDOM.

seriously, 25 pages of people trying to answer this.... you basically asked a question, then set out a buch of rules so people have no choice but to agree with you. get over it man, its a fairy tale. stories told to children to get them to behave. its not an account of actual events and facts, god is nothing more than the boogeyman of olden times. in a few thousand years someones gunna dig up a copy of harry potter and the world will proberly worship him as the second coming.

although, i suppose if your gunna have an imaginary friend, it might as well be jesus, the man can turn water into wine

Originally posted by DaveNorris
its a fairy tale. stories told to children to get them to behave.

Fairy tale, NO. How to behave, YES. Sounds like someone has problem with "Honor thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee," Exodus 20:12. " and Leviticus 19:3. "Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right. Honor thy father and thy mother; which is the first commandment with promise; That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth. And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord," Ephesians 6:1-4. "Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord. Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged," Colossians 3:20-21.

Yeah, let's give kids free rain with no authority over them, no wonder the kids of today are out there doing such stupid things. I guess kids are smarter than their parents nowadays.

Originally posted by DaveNorris
seriously, 25 pages of people trying to answer this.... you basically asked a question, then set out a buch of rules so people have no choice but to agree with you. get over it man, its a fairy tale. stories told to children to get them to behave. its not an account of actual events and facts, god is nothing more than the boogeyman of olden times. in a few thousand years someones gunna dig up a copy of harry potter and the world will proberly worship him as the second coming.

although, i suppose if your gunna have an imaginary friend, it might as well be jesus, the man can turn water into wine

edit on 17/7/2011 by DaveNorris because: spelling mistake

I completely agree.

It's preposterous in this day and age that we some of us are still slaves to religion. The law of man should have replaced the idea of a God that will punish you when you do bad things. But the churches saw this as intrusive to their profits and power so they decided to start a few crusades and a dark age which lasted hundreds of years. The world would be a better place without religion.

Originally posted by Tephra
Assuming for a moment that an omnipotent being were to exist, it takes very little effort to prove he is either useless or disgusting.

Explain to me how a "good" god can sentence innocent young children to a most certainly painful death. Certainly any omnipotent creature capable of allowing such suffering should never be worshipped, existing or not.

God either wants to eliminate bad things and cannot, or can but does not want to, or neither wishes to nor can, or both wants to and can. If he wants to and cannot, then he is weak - and this does not apply to god. If he can but does not want to, then he is spiteful - which is equally foreign to god's nature. If he neither wants to nor can, he is both weak and spiteful, and so not a god. If he wants to and can, which is the only thing fitting for a god, where then do bad things come from? Or why does he not eliminate them?

- EPICURUS

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

-EPICURUS

I suggest you don't study epicurean philosophy or you will certainly lose the faith you seem to cherish. The reality is, if there were a "god" as you believe, he is pure evil in our sense of the word.

edit on 3-7-2011 by Tephra because: (no reason given)

I still see SuperiorEd and a few others making excuses for the atrocities and malevolence the Judeo-Christian God shows toward mankind, but you still do not answer the questions above by the quotes of Epicurus.

The First Testament is more about obaying God or be punished, playing with people by having them go nuts to kill their son, then to stay their hand. By creating mass catastrophies and genocides against the human species. About SLAVERY being one of the things God is ok with, and actually states how slaves should be treated.

Then all of a sudden Jesus comes along and shows us the LOVING side of God? Jesus is a contradiction to the First testament God.

Seems like at some point in past history people may have been waking up to the farse of the First Testament, then the chuch became frightened and decided to stage a miracle to keep people believing, to keep funding their livelyhoods.

I do not want to hear it is some divine plan, that only the truely elightened shall know Gods plan. IF Gods plan is to frighten, tease his subjects while they live, then I will not follow such a God. Just like you would not follow a King, President, etc... if they did the same to you. Wait many people already do that today, guess it is just human nature to allow someone/something to dictate your lives, because you who seek such stern guidence are weak.

For when I was young and forcefed this Religion BS my life was nothing but chaotic, distraught, sad. But since I have given up my beliefs in religion and left God behind, I have never been happier and safer. Nothing to worry about cept how to keep food on my table and roof over my kids heads. Leaves so much more free time to not think of such trivial idols.

Originally posted by TheGreatAppleKing
Dude Atheists don't believe in god they will deny any religion out there.

when you get their opinion on what happens after death, they just sit there with a plain face and thinking of what to write next

then they come up with something that i just had to laugh at.

"when we die we see what we saw before we were born" oh really??? then by this theory we must have died several times over and over and not even noticed a thing and be born onto a new body...

but then i question my self how could such a thing happen? it CANT once you're gone you're gone for GOOD

What are you talking about? Athiests say this?

I do not say such hogwash. I believe once we die, we die. Our energy(since energy is never ending, just tranfers from one state to another) is consumed by the bugs/worms/soil, which continues the circle of life.

We humans must understand that the time you spend here on Earth is very unique, there are no second chances. You do with this time what makes you happy, without interrupting/harming the social structure of your neighbors.

Live and Die, thats all there is.

Originally posted by RealTruthSeeker
no wonder the kids of today are out there doing such stupid things. I guess kids are smarter than their parents nowadays.

This quote is so funny, parents have been saying this for centuries. Cultures and society advance with each new generation, these kids will grow up into nice adults(well most of them) and continue the tradition of human growth.
Well unless TPTB finally decide to hit the button.

Originally posted by RealTruthSeeker

Originally posted by DaveNorris
its a fairy tale. stories told to children to get them to behave.

Fairy tale, NO. How to behave, YES. Sounds like someone has problem with "Honor thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee," Exodus 20:12. " and Leviticus 19:3. "Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right. Honor thy father and thy mother; which is the first commandment with promise; That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth. And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord," Ephesians 6:1-4. "Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord. Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged," Colossians 3:20-21.

Yeah, let's give kids free rain with no authority over them, no wonder the kids of today are out there doing such stupid things. I guess kids are smarter than their parents nowadays.

children arent out of control because they lack faith in god, they lack disapline from their parents. and i might pay more attention to church goers if they didnt keep quoting the same stuff from one very old story book