(New title:) How are people manipulated by psychopaths?

reply to post by wildtimes


I would say in answer to AreaX's question about those people who care about their small group of friends but have no real emotions or care for random other people, that its a question best addressed by evolutionary psychology, than the counseling sort.

Human beings did not evolve in huge faceless nameless masses of others. We evolved in relatively small groups and until very recently, in evolutionary terms, thats how we lived.

I dont think the people you are describing are high functioning sociopaths or psychopaths. I think they are normal humans, and just not "Buddhas" or "Christs." They are functioning as nature programmed them to, to care for their tribe. Not strangers. Although we are imposing some idea upon humanity that we should all get along and not war, nature disagrees with us. Nature dictates competition between individuals, and between groups of individuals in social species. And sociopath is only a sociopath, in natures terms, if it harms members of its in group. Its social group. Harming members of the out group is not a bad thing by natures definition, in many cases.

Which I think is the case for most humans, most humans care for their tribe, however they define that, and dont care or are hostile to those they see as "others." Although the existence of Buddhas and Christ and others of the ilk say that that is a human variant, those who love all beings equally well, and care for them all equally well, and it COULD be that we are evolving that way, or they could just be the opposite extreme to psychopaths, and there is always some percentage of people in the world who lean that way, and some become famous.

True sociopaths are a tribe of one. They dont really extend their caring past their own self.

reply to post by AusiAnarchist


I used to work for the U.S. Forest Service & one of my bosses had a degree in forestry (if I remember correctly) and a minor in biology. You get a drink or two in him and he would begin to spout these wierd/interesting factoids; like if you look at a cross section of a steelheads scale you can tell how many times it went upstream, similar to rings in a tree. Anyway he said black bears have aberrant types; typically they are opportunistic hunters but these aberrant types will grid old clear-cuts specifically looking for bedded down fawns while other bears would be grazing or eating berries. They are also more apt to kill & eat cubs which is not unheard of among bears but more prevalent in these aberrant types. He said the ratio in the population is about 1/100 (if you have been reading this thread that ratio will be familiar) Perhaps in times when grazing is not good these behaviors give these bears a little advantage? That did occur to me also that in extreme shtf situations being a sociopath may be an advantage...not so much in normal functioning society.

I wanted to add one section from Dr. Martha Stout's book, The Sociopath Next Door:

Thirteen Rules for Dealing with Sociopaths in Everyday Life:

1. You have to accept the bitter pill that some people literally have no conscience.

2. In a contest between your instincts and what is implied by the role a person has taken on -- educator, doctor, leader, animal lover, humanist, parent -- go with your instincts.

3. When considering a new relationship of any kind, practice the Rule of Three regarding the claims and promises a person makes and the responsibilities he/she has. Make The Rule of Three your personal philosophy (one lie or broken promise may be a misunderstanding, two may involve a serious mistake by three says you're dealing with a liar, and deceit is the linchpin of conscienceless behavior).

4. Question authority (many sociopaths get away with their behavior because we've been conditioned to respect authority without question).

5. Suspect too much flattery (another commonly used form of manipulation).

6. If necessary, redefine your concept of respect (people will often mistake "fear of a person" as "respect for the person").

7. Do not join the game.

8. The best way to protect yourself from a sociopath is to avoid him/her, to refuse any kind of contact or communication.

9. Question your tendency to pity too easily (certain sociopath's - those with a more lazy entitlement goal - will try to get you to pity them thereby continuing the enablement).

10. Do not try to redeem the unredeemable.

11. Never agree, out of pity of for any other reason, to help a sociopath conceal his/her true character.

12. Defend your psyche (do not allow someone without conscience to convince you that humanity is a failure).

13. Living well is the best revenge.

Originally posted by GogoVicMorrow
reply to post by vivalarevolution

 

No.. there are psychopaths.
.

Maybe, but, you're making use of a null & void system used to classify 'livestock', if you will. It's all about gaining from someone else's loss, essentially.

Greetings ATS,
I have lurked here for years but have recently just registered.
My Regards to the OP for starting this thread.

VICTIMS

Pertaining to "Sociopaths"

Unfortunately, being a victim, I can not advise really about why these "sociopaths" exist. Some claim their "made" while others claim their "born" I can really care less, I can really only "speculate". So too, at the end of the day it seems that even professionals, can only "speculate". ( I mean absolutely no disrespect to the OP as they have stated they are a professional in this area)

In my opinion, those inquiries do little to prevent you or a loved one or anyone from becoming a "victim".
My own personal dealings with such "predators" nearly cost me and mine our very lives. The scars are deep and will remain forever.
However, I have learned much as to how to "win" the "game" they force you to "play", as one poster who claims to be such stated:

"I view mostly everything as a game. Really, as the only game that matters and I want to play it well"

It is exactly this to these "clever animals", a "game" and anything in it, including you or the ones you care about are "expendable".

I believe another poster claiming to be such would advise victims to just "get over it", blame yourself and get on with your life or something along those lines.

Amusing to say the least, how beneficial it would be for predators if all victims took that advise. Those who do may find themselves at risk for the following:

"However even as I was was negatively affecting someone I would make it "their fault". This allowed me to use this person at a further date if need be."

These creatures are "inter-species predators" simply put.

I am a first time poster so I will get to the point:
The little "white lie" as it were or the "secrets" that you share with these sociopaths, are the tools which over all allows them to manipulate and control the victim. This comes after the "grooming" stage upon where the victim over a long period of time, "if need be" is stripped of their own core beliefs and pre-existing morals and values and such. A sociopath will then upload "your" new system of values and such, which will contrast infinitely from what was present before, in fact it will mirror/mimic the predators own.

We have seen on ATS and other such sites as "wikileaks" that EXPOSURE is what makes corruption and tyranny squirm like no other weapon in the arsenal. EXPOSURE = TRUTH

"Truth" = "Exposure" to these predators is not unlike silver to a "liken" or sun light to a "blood sucker", It makes them more than a little uncomfortable and if the truth is used wisely will cause the predator to run , literally cut and run, but only after playing their card(s) to the last possible second. In my experience at the end of the day the predator was a coward, and more insecure by far than any of its victims. The whole grandiose delusion of superiority is just as fake as their fabricated intentions. To the women who fall victim to the whole "Bad Boy Syndrome" you may want to research works along the lines as "How to get laid 101" There are entire sections that exploit a females inert maternal instincts and other such trash as how to create intrigue and use sympathy ploys, using the unconditional love ploy, simply put these works teach us "How to be a predator" or "How to create a compliant victim" indeed, the whole status qua seems to reflect and advocate such rubbish, but that is a much bigger fish to fry.

If you are a VICTIM please consider the following actions if you wish to cut ties with a predator.
Note: (The order in which you follow these steps may vary but whats important is all steps listed are utilized)

1.) Re-establish ties with those closest to you, no doubt you have isolated your self via a result of the predators control and manipulation tactics. You must re-build a network of love and support.

2.) This may hurt, but come completely clean with what has happened, every detail if need be and it will HURT. It will hurt you and those you love but your honesty and the truth of which, is ESSENTIAL to your survival and or the survival/reincarnation of past or current relationships. (spouse, children, parents, friends)
By becoming completely clean, you have taken a major step, which is a major blow to the predators ability to further terrorize you into compliance. Threatening to expose actions or events that YOU were manipulated into or becoming compliant with are now null and void and a useless tool, no longer viable. (nothing to expose)

3.) Sadly as was in my case, after educating my self, I had to frequently educate those who were utterly shocked by what I told them, there is loads of documentation and a quagmire of data related to what others have been through as a result of these "clever predators". Know that you are NOT alone. Get on Google and do some research. (Before our experience I knew little of this percentage of the population that thrives on feeding upon us)

4.)Once you have hopefully re-established ties and built a network of protection via loved ones, friends and or family.You can begin to heal, and fight back! I would also suggest seeking out not only other victims, but specifically, victims of the same individual "parasite" Strength in numbers as they say. I found in my experience communication with other victims did much in the way of healing. Also in my situation, I found others more than willing to continue the exposure tactic long after the events. Thus alerting others to what they may endure if they think they can "change" or "save" these monsters.

5.) Save every document, every text, e-mail, phone recording, anything which the predator has sent you for any reason via threats or communication of any sort. If possible, recover communications pertaining to the love bombs, self pity sympathy ploys, and other communications you received from the "grooming Stage". More often than not, they will cringe with defeat if you can expose their perverse beliefs and habits on a public scale.(They lose all credibility) and thus have a hard time portraying the "Knight in Tinfoil" " "I'm a good person" "I'm here to save you" "I'm a victim" bullscat

As I exit I will share with you what I and other "victims" have done.

I((we) have posted on any site this freak uses as a tool to hunt, his full name, his public criminal record, his delinquent parental status, made public his own communications to me and mine and others (with their consent) a list of other victims as well as the STD"S and other infections and parasites this "clever animal" is host to. I(we) have saved God knows how many others and will continue to do so. (think "anonymous" on a smaller scale)
Indeed other victims (strength in numbers) of this parasite have followed suit and have contributed to the cause with vigilance and received a feeling of "closure" and have rediscovered and regained there "self respect" and so too, their "identity of self".

I have challenged the predator(s) to confront me in any setting "legal or otherwise " to defend what they have done, or seek charges against myself for "exposing them". They just keep running however. If some feel the exposure tactic is cruel, I can only say the "TRUTH is VIRAL" and "Karma is a Bitch"

There is a definitive line that separates "character assassination" and the "exposure of a lack thereof"


In my opinion, It is not what they "have" that enables them to feed on others, it is what they "lack", that being: honor, sympathy, respect for others, virtue, honesty, empathy, .....simply put, emotions and attributes that make us more than just "clever animals".

If you have attracted a predator of the most daring type however, and fear for your or your loved ones lives, I'd suggest utilizing the second amendment"

"Better to have one and not need it than to need it and not have it"


As to why others become seemingly accomplices, I can only guess, mob mentality? The whole I wasn't the only one rationalization perhaps... who knows, but I know this:

"Bad company corrupts good character"

reply to post by The7thShepherd


Exciting! a real live superhero! Extremely cool.

reply to post by The7thShepherd


That was really one fantastic post. And I agree with the grooming etc part and the truth is their silver bullet part enormously.

Very well done. I know those things, (instinctively when dealing with them) but I hadnt consciously elaborated them for myself, and Im so glad to read them outright like that. Yes. Absolutely. Great job.

reply to post by agentblue


" I am a psychopath.... I don't mind it and if you don 't like it or don't want to play don't come around. Simply put if someone does what they want then let them do it, just don't get involved in it."

Yeah....The one I got involved with, when I dared to call her on her cr.. she would 1) turn it back on me in some way
2) deflect in some other fashion or if she was caught without a doubt and unable to spin it she would say 3) "well, you LET me do it to you. "We" operate under a basic assumption that people are generally not out to burn us for no good reason, that is where "you" manage to get over on us. Most of your victims, in your eyes, were probably just asking for it but if you are honest there probably have been times when you had to make or work at your opportunity.
Overall though you are correct I have learned to pay attention to red flags and trust my gut and have been pretty successful at steering clear of your kind.

reply to post by agentblue


You forgot option three. Make their lives a living hell when you run across them.

reply to post by timidgal

Excellent book, I've read it, scared the hell out of me. Many people can't swallow that "biter bill". Sadly its only after an event that they can.

This book was referred to me by a victim of the same predator.

Originally posted by The7thShepherd

It sounds like you have really been through the ringer and I admire your courage in fighting back. Unfortunately, most of these sitations do not result with the victim having tangible proof and when it comes down to a he said-she said scenario, the sociopath is unbelievably good at convincing others you (the victim) are the one who is lying or crazy.

Unfortunately, being a victim, I can not advise really about why these "sociopaths" exist. Some claim their "made" while others claim their "born" I can really care less. In my opinion, those inquiries do little to prevent you or a loved one or anyone from becoming a "victim".

Although I agree with you in sentiment here, I think it's important that we keep trying to figure out the root cause. From the literature I've read, scientists definitely think it's a combination of genetics (being born with a predisposition) and environment but what that "environmental" trigger may be, they can't seem to figure out.

These creatures are "inter-species predators" simply put.

No question about it but I refuse to even acknowledge them because that's what they want. I refuse to play their game but what's right for me is not necessarily right for everyone...

The little "white lie" as it were or the "secrets" that you share with these sociopaths, are the tools which over all allows them to manipulate and control the victim. This comes after the "grooming" stage upon where the victim over a long period of time, "if need be" is stripped of their own core beliefs and pre-existing morals and values and such. A sociopath will then upload "your" new system of values and such, which will contrast infinitely from what was present before, in fact it will mirror/mimic the predators own.

Couldn't agree more as this exactly describes what happened to me and what is a more humiliating way of degredating someone than by using their deepest and darkest secrets against them? They are horrifyingly skillful in the art of humiliation.

If you are a VICTIM please consider the following actions if you wish to cut ties with a predator.
Note: (The order in which you follow these steps may vary but whats important is all steps listed are utilized)

1.) Re-establish ties with those closest to you, no doubt you have isolated your self via a result of the predators control and manipulation tactics. You must re-build a network of love and support.

2.) This may hurt, but come completely clean with what has happened, every detail if need be and it will HURT. It will hurt you and those you love but your honesty and the truth of which, is ESSENTIAL to your survival and or the survival/reincarnation of past or current relationships. (spouse, children, parents, friends)
By becoming completely clean, you have taken a major step, which is a major blow to the predators ability to further terrorize you into compliance. Threatening to expose actions or events that YOU were manipulated into or becoming compliant with are now null and void and a useless tool, no longer viable. (nothing to expose)

3.) Sadly as was in my case, after educating my self, I had to frequently educate those who were utterly shocked by what I told them, there is loads of documentation and a quagmire of data related to what others have been through as a result of these "clever predators". Know that you are NOT alone. Get on Google and do some research. (Before our experience I knew little of this percentage of the population that thrives on feeding upon us)

Without the support and understanding of your family and friends, the odds are that you'll continue to fall prey to their manipulations. Only your loved ones can help you become "deprogrammed".

Again, I give you credit for having the fortitude to fight back and wish you luck in your efforts. For me, I felt that as long as I remained in the self-pity or revenge mode, it kept me oddly tethered to him and my priority, for myself, was to distance myself as much as possible. With that said, not everyone heals in the same way and I wish you the best of luck in exposing this animal for what he/she is.

Timidgal

Originally posted by Partygirl

Originally posted by Evanzsayz

 

You mean if she cheats? That happens about 99% of the time in America...no joke...women are scandalous

That's not true.

edit on 1-7-2011 by Partygirl because: (no reason given)

Ok maybe not all of them, there are good women out there dont get me wrong just from experience I have not encontered such a thing

While I was away from this forum today, I was thinking about this thread, and also my knowledge of the CIA MK/Ultra mindcontrol programs. Those victims testified that their humanity was stripped away, broken down, until they were pliable vessels. I think of the Patricia Hearst ordeal. Seems that mindcontrol and brainwashing and psychopathy all go together. A previous thread a few back, talked about how the conscienceless mind was known in the Soviet Union a long time back, but this crucial knowledge was not made generally available. Of course. Then I thought of the "cremation of care" child effigy burning in the Bohemian Grove, where those powere brokers symbolicly burn up their "care". (Like they have any...) So I'm coming up with a conspiracy theory, that the PTBs have always known they are conscienceless, and figured if all those types worked together, they could easily keep good people under their bootheels.
I agree with an above post one thousand percent, that the "truth is viral" and is bug spray upon the bugs. That is why I'd been telling about my own experiences here. I mentioned my own "problems" and "disorders" but I am seeing that my main one was not knowing that there are those without consciences BESIDES the -rare- infamous serial killers. So therefore, no matter how tragic my path was turning, had I known then what I know now, it would not have turned even more so. The truth is the light.
If there was no internet, alot of us would be still dwelling on what was so unlovable about us to be treated and demeaned so badly. I'm certain of that.

reply to post by timidgal


in those games, the players, are the losers, and those books, are written by some "not quite all the way there"
individuals, imo. just fyi(andanyoneelse who might be interested.)

Ok.. everyone here.
Do yourselves a favor and buy Jon Ronson's "The Psychopath Test." It just came out and it's great I read it as soon as it hit shelves. Ronson also wrote "The Men Who Stared at Goats"

It covers exactly what everyone here is asking about.

reply to post by Schkeptick


I honestly think it is a bit of both. My father was the text book sociopath, my mother way more like me, very long term. Although I have had a few "Tramas" early in my childhood. I won't go into too much detail to those. I think the tramas allowed me to fully understand myself rather than make me who I am. It was the lack of caring after they had happened that confused most people. In effect it really opened my eyes to how different I was/am.

reply to post by timidgal

"It sounds like you have really been through the ringer and I admire your courage in fighting back. Unfortunately, most of these sitations do not result with the victim having tangible proof and when it comes down to a he said-she said scenario, the sociopath is unbelievably good at convincing others you (the victim) are the one who is lying or crazy."

We have and thank you. Absolutely what you say is true. Overkill of such evidence is a vital ingredient. It can though complement, what is tangible, or become tangible, in certain circumstances. Yes they do seem to have a unique ability convince others they are not at fault and spin it back at the victim, its classic.

I think it's important that we keep trying to figure out the root cause.

Yes, I agree totally, I hope we can.

No question about it but I refuse to even acknowledge them because that's what they want. I refuse to play their game but what's right for me is not necessarily right for everyone

Indeed and should be mentioned, In our situation , before learning this predator, had no ability to wreak the havoc he promised to deliver I called the bluff. God forbid a predator that does have access to money and power, the fight could prove to be futile.
The enemy that attacked me and mine lived "off the grid" still does, fake names (many) no re-searchable history, no way to disprove what he claimed to be. Daunted "make-up" and a hair piece actually, (perp was bald) , EVERYTHING was phoney, an illusion. What I did may not be entirely workable for someone else.

They are horrifyingly skillful in the art of humiliation.

So true, the victims shame is a powerful tool.

Only your loved ones can help you become "deprogrammed".

Absolutely!

"For me, I felt that as long as I remained in the self-pity or revenge mode, it kept me oddly tethered to him and my priority, for myself, was to distance myself as much as possible"

Indeed, I have struggled and still do with "revenge mode"

I take some satisfaction knowing as proven the predator will destroy itself. If I(we)have hastened that outcome that is enough. Me and mine never wanted to play the game, had no choice, no control to end it, and for what seemed to be an eternity no way to fight it.

I can't stress the danger that was imminent, it was indeed playing out like a movie, I was not the target per-say, it was my spouse, the love of my life, my soul mate of almost 15 years at the time of the attack. We have children, who also were attempted targets.I had to play the game to WIN I had everything to lose. Using violence was rendered null and void at the time. It became a battle of wit, like some sick mental chess game. I had to keep myself from taking lethal action or any action that would remove me from the game as it were, I had to de-rail suicide attempts, revive the victim, and at times resort to the same tactics that were being used, it was horrifying. (others before us were not successful, other died, by suicide, or at least that was what it had been ruled to be.) This animal upon knowing the bluff was called, the jig was up, attempted to pull a "Romeo and Juliet" exit. It was NEVER its intention to harm itself, only cover its ass, and WIN the game. Only one drink would have been tainted I assure you.

Its been a few years and all is well, my family intact, as well as our sanity,with that We were victorious, deprogramming complete. I stay current with the intel, as this perp is still breathing free air, but our actions with the help of others, has forced the predator to re-locate thousands of miles away. That battle is won.

What happenz and it's strange, when another victim(s) becomes suspicious, and secretly accesses the perps laptop, or (social media sites )

reply to post by The7thShepherd


Thank you for doing what you do. The more people looking out for socio/psychopaths the more bad players will be weeded out of the game. It gets bothersome after a while when I see so many people get taken by the inexperienced.

And my super power is making you believe I'm normal

reply to post by eletheia


finally ..something that didnt involve a relationship where the guy was a psyko. Now that I know the larger percentage of psykos arent dangerous I think id like to meet more. Ive read a few posts on this thread that border on what I consider psyko, and not the ones who admit it if you catch my drift. Politicians,..basically most people with money...so its the ones with no money that we have to worry about? hmmmm money is the majority psyko outlet, while pure chaos is the minority..(serial killers etc)

reply to post by Gorman91


Well, if this person manipulates only for the gain of others, and by 'gain' we are talking about actually good outcomes, beneficial to the others, then he/she by definition is not psychopathic (those with psychopathy are not able to relate to others' needs above their own). At least as far as I understand it.

I would, instead, call that person 'persuasive'. I agree that the nobler goal - if one has those powers of persuasion - would be to manipulate to take down evil.
Then we get into hidden agendas. A psychopath might believe they are wanting the best for someone else, when in fact they are focusing on the end-gain for themselves that disregards the affect on the other. A skilled 'leader' is something different.

If the person is seriously and selflessly considering how to help others have what the others will find, in fact, to be better lives, that would not be undesirable behavior. William Wallace, for example. But he did not try to 'trick' anyone into participating. Then let's look at Harold Champing. He persuaded an enormous audience to give up all worldly things and get ready for the second coming. Many did so, to varying degrees, and took to the road to spread the happy news. Did Champing believe what he was predicting? Who knows? (Only he knows). And if he did, then is he a psychopath, or is he a messiah who made a mistake?

I hope that illustrates better what I'm getting at - that motive and desired outcomes must be in sync with 'Treat others the way you would - or would have your loved ones - be treated.'

You are not specific enough in your suggestion for me to make any more of it than that. But certainly an interesting note on the subject. Any person with enough charisma to take on the mantel of 'leadership' might be persuasive enough to convince their audience that everything is for 'their audience's own good'. The problem is whether or not what they are proposing actually is for the benefit of others in the bigger picture, and at whose expense.

Again, I do not claim to have all the answers. We're getting into philosophy now (which is koolio with me, btw), always an interesting subject matter.