Religion, idiots and lack of sensibilities!! WTF?

I am at a loss as too why people follow religion.

Using ATS as my ground that you may all be familiar with I am mind boggled over the Religion fad!!

People on ATS always, ALWAYS ask for PROOF. Just check out any 9/11 thread and the word PROOF is rampant and wild. LOOK at any UFO thread and video evidence and pics are paramount in order to show PROOF.

PROOF, PROOF, PROOF - But not in religion!!

Good ATS people are blindly accepting the word of people who they do not even know. Stories that have been changed to suit the present day people's perspective. But YET they still believe in god!!

Why is logic and sensibility lost for this one subject when it is always applied or at least attempted in all others. We did not except that Light was 186,000 miles per second in speed related terms. We set out to prove it by measuring it.

But with god, NO PROOF is offered yet people fall over themselves to accepts it and actually argue that its true and no proof is needed.

WTF?

Who are you to say I have no proof?

I have proof enough for myself. It wouldn't convince YOU, but it wasn't meant for you, only for me. It isn't my business to convince you.

Which is why my replies have approached near-trolling on the religious threads & I'm trying to stay away. I'm tired of the hateful rhetoric on BOTH sides.

Faith doesn't require proof, that's exactly what the word stands for.
To believe without proof

Faith is not the same as believing in god!!


I am talking about the belief in god as in "in god we trust"

Yes in a way faith is a believers proof. If God came down and sat on your porch you would have no choice but to declare he is real and follow him.

God does not want that so will not give proof like that. However for those that do follow him they believe he shows his existence to them in many ways that non-believers may not notice. The faith they have in him provides their proof.

In order to discover this proof you would need to show your faith. God does not want people who do not believe but he want's those willing to take that first step off the cliff knowing that he will catch you. Then you will have your proof.

there is a big difference between knowing and believing

and this off a cliff thing..
haha
you first kro
then I'll know

reply to post by Danbones


Never said if I believed or not. However I am familiar with the teachings and i'm fairly certain most religions follow this concept. Anyone asking for specific proof will never get it i'm afraid.

reply to post by TheButcher23


I would have to agree with the rest of the post in that it is not your place to question their beliefs because they do not present proof of a God. I could say the same to you the same provide me definitive proof there is no God. My real question is what did you hope to achieve with this thread obviously you are closed to the thought of anything but what you believe.

people tyth without proof
that is SCAREE

they also kill without it too

dang that

reply to post by User8911


That seems to be the phrase believers use must often when taken to task for their religion. When presented with rational arguments that make there faith look silly and irrational their fallback response is, "that is why its called faith." Exactly that is why it is silly.

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason"
-Benjamin Franklin

"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."
-Christopher Hitchens

God works in your Heart to engender faith.

Faith comes from the heart, not the head.

Trying to judge faith with the mind only (i.e., no heart) is like going to a movie and closing your eyes or stopping your ears: You will get the sights but not the sounds, or the sounds but not the sights. True faith takes root in the heart and mind, just like a movie needs both sound and visuals. This is the error of most athiests, who approach the issue solely from the head.

Originally posted by ParanoidAmerican
reply to post by TheButcher23

 

I would have to agree with the rest of the post in that it is not your place to question their beliefs because they do not present proof of a God. I could say the same to you the same provide me definitive proof there is no God. My real question is what did you hope to achieve with this thread obviously you are closed to the thought of anything but what you believe.

No you cannot logically ask the same of him. Non belief is the default position. The burden of proof lies with the person making the claim. It is any logical person's place to question the irrational. When we look at the effect religion has had on today's world as well as history, I would say it is our duty to question and discuss it. People should be respectful towards the person but religion itself is not a "sacred cow" that we should tiptoe around.

No truth is the truth unless it is lived
and when it comes to what I believe god to be
I can only know what god is not
for god the (Divine Being) has no reflection

religion asks me to believe in something
what ever I believe in ...it is not that either


the blind leading the blind

everyone needs to discover their own truth

and the best place to find that truth is to look within yourself

because there is no god outside of yourself !!!

reply to post by Partygirl


I'm sorry but no emotion originates in the heart. The heart pumps blood, that is it. I know what you are trying to say because I have made the same argument but faith originates in the mind.

There is no other logical way to approach an issue. Really there is no other possible way to approach an issue. When you say you have to use your "soul" or "feel it in your heart", it is the mind. They are just abstract terms. When a person makes decisions based on faith they are being irrational, plain and simple. It also leads to extremely dangerous situations that I don't want to see in the world anymore, such as "god told me to invade Iraq.", "god told me to cut the arms off of my baby.", "I have faith I will get 72 virgins if I martyr myself.", "I have faith that god will fix it for me.", etc.

reply to post by TheButcher23


You know this works both ways right? Show me Proof undeniable proof that there isn't a creator. Ps while your at it tell me where consciousness comes from and if time is real

I hate these religous threads. If you don't believe in a creator, fine. If you do, fine.

Where's the beef?

Starting a thread about religion = pointless arguements.

Agree to disagree, we all share one thing. That thing is death. In the end we will know the truth, may it be heaven or hell or simple nothingness.

So maybe the OP should have asked this what gives religious persons faith and why are they certain of it? I would ask this though what is faith really one can have faith in any number of things for example do you think Isac Newton or Albert Einstein had faith that their theories or they just believed they were right. Numerous beliefs have faith that theirs is correct does this make everyone but theirs wrong..... if so which belief is correct lol

props pcrobotwolf you beat me to one point.

reply to post by megabytz


I see that validity in that as I have the same belief that organized religion is the issue all together. Heck in the Bible Jesus was fighting the power long before, this has been going on for years. I started a thread to touch a little about this and all belief systems. Basically I lost faith in all forms of organized religion long ago and think to each his own who am I to question. I will debate it though.

reply to post by pcrobotwolf


As stated so many times before, it does not work both ways. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim. Not on the person that simply has the default position.If you made the claim that unicorns exist it would be on you to prove that they do, not on me to prove that they don't. See how that works? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

I don't think it's a pointless subject at all. A lot of people fall into one end of the spectrum or the other .. it's a case of Black and White. I think that people like the idea of Black and White as a rule to be applied to life (including beliefs etc..). Black and White gets rid of doubt, builds structures, provides a stable platform to move forwards from in life.

My biggest issue with this is that I don't believe life is Black and White but made up of shades of Grey. This is why we have Jury systems in Court as even our "Black and White" laws can be bent either way which blend those extremes together and thus the verdict often lies somewhere in between the 2. This is true to all things in life including religion.

I once read a document that stated that Science and Religion are the same thing but on opposite ends of the spectrum. They both are attempting to deal with the mysteries of life. Religion (being that it is faith based) means that they are able to take quantum leaps forwards without requiring all those calculations that can often slow down the process. Science requires logical, chronological steps to reach the same goals but with a solid trail of evidence left behind it.

Neither in my opinion are wrong for choosing to tackle the same mysteries in their own ways, however it's worth noting that both can, and often do turn out to not always get it right. Even with all the calculations, Science still can make mistakes (such as with the example of Pluto being assumed a planet for many years than more recently it was decided that it was not a planet, or even the whole earth is round vs square theories)

I'm sure that back when Scientists were performing all of these calculations, they felt that they were absolutely correct as they had the "Proof" to back it up at that time. I mean we are still learning new things a.bout how the human body works all the time. Things that we thought were all set in concrete.

Also, whilst Religion never gets things "Wrong" per-say, due to the fact that all religion is a subjective experience and those that follow the various religions often stand in line behind "Leaders", there is a big margin of error that we tend to see go down with things such as Cult movements. The latest of which that hit the MSM might be the guy that claimed the world was going to end back in May.

So I guess if you're still reading this post you are wondering, where I am going with all of this? See I think that everything in life shows us 1 solid trait that is most important for survival.

Balance

Look at a person's diet, physics, mental health, the ecosystem, even the planets and their orbits. It is all related to a perfect balance that has managed to keep everything running smoothly for so long. Should things come along and disrupt that balance so it tips too far either way towards an absolute (Black or White), the results are never good.

Perhaps if this is applied to the concepts of Science and Religion, we may be able to start making some real progress forwards. Instead of fighting against the grains of life, why not flow with life and take it's valuable lesson about balance on board.

If we are able to maintain a healthy balance of Religion whilst still being open to change and also maintain a healthy balance of Scientific knowledge without letting the fear/desire to always have "Proof" control and dominate us, we will be able to believe in things and also grow a scientific understanding of how and why they are as we believe them to be but without demanding that proof from the outset.

Perhaps we all have a concience so that we are able to discerne for ourselves where these lines of balance are. I just think that Religious or Scientific extremists shooting eachother down because they don't measure up to the Black and White laws that both ends of the spectrum rely upon will only further segregate people who could be so much stronger if they could find that common ground of seeking the same goals though different methods.

Both Science and Religion are focused around life right?

Anyways, these are my thoughts on this subject, thank you for taking the time to read them for those that manage to endure through my personal thoughts on the topic this far

p.s. Paranoid American : I couldn't agree more with your thoughts on Organised Religion...It truely is a big stumbling stone in the way of healthy balance as it is responsible for the development of pretty much every cult in existence. Cults aren't interested in obtaining healthy balance.

Whilst I may come across as an Athiest, I think it's ethical to reveal that I do believe in God, but I do not believe in idolising one man over others, no person is better or worse than me due to their position in the social food chain. Some may have power over my life (Law Enforcement, Government, Boss) but that power ends where their legal authority ends and remove their badge or their position as my boss or their political role and they are just another person like you and me and their own actions and personal power over themselves is the difference between eachother. If that's not well explained, I may later try to better explain it should it be questioned but it's just something I think should be stated so as to not be judged as playing the devil's advocate.

p.p.s For those interested in a Japanese cartoon that depicts some of these principles and is a great watch for those that aren't able to grasp the multi-layered principles of it : Check out - Eureka