Gaza flotilla ship 'sabotaged by divers'

reply to post by IsraeliGuy


Isn't Ashdod in Israel?

Why would they go there? Meet them at sea and inspect them off the coast. Seems like a reasonable compromise.

Of course, there are those who would question the legality of Israel insisting on inspectionat all, consodering the boats are going to be in international waters, and not traveling to Israel.

HAHAHA, so basically you're saying either we agree unconditionally to their terms and inspect them wherever they want, you will not see this as good PR for Israel..

Stop beating the bush.. you said inspect them and let them in, and that's exactly what they were offered. They refused, their problem. Now all they have left is try to cause bad PR for us which will eventually turn on them. Ofcourse, people like you or others who always criticize Israel no matter what approach it takes, will still claim that Israel is to blame, no matter what happens.

For example look at your post. Not only should Israel inspect them not at Israel for some strange reason (They are going to Gaza, the most hostile place on earth with many documents of Hamas stealing aid and attacking aid trucks, why should they be concerned to dock at Israel?..), even if they do that they are still blamed for something - disturbing peace at international waters.

Hey I've got an idea! Why not inspect the cargo in Iran, while rockets are shot at IDF forces (Ofcourse they are not allowed to fire back! Bad PR!) And after the inspecting is done, they will consider if they agree to the inspection results. That's the best PR Israel can get! Let's do it this way! Haha, not.

When it comes to your POV, Israel has to be blamed for something. Not that anyone cares, ey? Feel free to do that and see if it changes anything.


Also, I remind you once again that Israel is not after PR in this. Be it good or bad PR, Israel will do what it have to enforce the blockade, illegal or not. When someone truly want to move aid into Gaza they will do it through Israel, under Israeli inspections, or through Egypt with no inspections at all (if they feel inspecting their cargo is a no no).
Don't like it? Too damn bad. Good luck wasting fuel and resources only to be stopped by us.

Originally posted by IsraeliGuy
HAHAHA, so basically you're saying either we agree unconditionally to their terms and inspect them wherever they want, you will not see this as good PR for Israel..

Stop beating the bush.. you said inspect them and let them in, and that's exactly what they were offered. They refused, their problem. Now all they have left is try to cause bad PR for us which will eventually turn on them. Ofcourse, people like you or others who always criticize Israel no matter what approach it takes, will still claim that Israel is to blame, no matter what happens.

For example look at your post. Not only should Israel inspect them not at Israel for some strange reason (They are going to Gaza, the most hostile place on earth with many documents of Hamas stealing aid and attacking aid trucks, why should they be concerned to dock at Israel?..), even if they do that they are still blamed for something - disturbing peace at international waters.

Hey I've got an idea! Why not inspect the cargo in Iran, while rockets are shot at IDF forces (Ofcourse they are not allowed to fire back! Bad PR!) And after the inspecting is done, they will consider if they agree to the inspection results. That's the best PR Israel can get! Let's do it this way! Haha, not.

When it comes to your POV, Israel has to be blamed for something. Not that anyone cares, ey? Feel free to do that and see if it changes anything.


Also, I remind you once again that Israel is not after PR in this. Be it good or bad PR, Israel will do what it have to enforce the blockade, illegal or not. When someone truly want to move aid into Gaza they will do it through Israel, under Israeli inspections, or through Egypt with no inspections at all (if they feel inspecting their cargo is a no no).
Don't like it? Too damn bad. Good luck wasting fuel and resources only to be stopped by us.

edit on 30-6-2011 by IsraeliGuy because: (no reason given)

No, it is perfecctly clear what you are after. You want to starve innocent families, women and children, destroy their economy and force them from their land so that you can build illeagal jewish settlemnents on them. And you don't care what the rest of the world thinks. So stop whinging on about this being a PR stunt. Don't wory mate, your PR could not get any worse, You look about as bad as you can, and you really don't care, as has been made obvious by posters here, and your government.

Israeli officials have confirmed to Embassy officials on multiple occasions that they intend to keep the Gazan economy functioning at the lowest level possible consistent with avoiding a humanitarian crisis…

And...

As part of their overall embargo plan against Gaza, Israeli officials have confirmed to econoffs on multiple occasions that they intend to keep the Gazan economy on the brink of collapse without quite pushing it over the edge

Source...

Cold cruel hearltess beasts, that would inflict such misery and suffering on an entire people. And you call yourselves religious!!!

God help us.

Originally posted by Shamatt
Cold cruel hearltess beasts, that would inflict such misery and suffering on an entire people. And you call yourselves religious!!!

God help us.

They could always just leave and go to any of the Islamic countries surrounding them. That land belongs to Israel, it will be recaptured and reintegrated at some point.

Originally posted by KilrathiLG
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

ah thank you for clearing that up for me i had been missinformed,seems like the embargo or whatnot we as americans have agaisnt cuba is nonsense ad should be stopped long b4 the Gaza one

Thats actually been discussed among some members of Congress. The mindset is after 60 years the embaro has not had the desired affect, which was the collpase of the Castro Government. One of the stumbeling blocks Congress has had with Cuba and ending the Ambargo comes from, primarily, southern Florida where those who fled / left / what have you from Cuba have settled.

They are continuing to push for the embargo for obvious reasons.

As far as Gaza goes, the US supplies The Paletinian Government with money, as does europe and several other countries. Our issue is with Hamas, who we have classified as a terrorist organization. The problem is the Palestinaians voted them into office, and as such are the representatives of the Palestinian peope in Gaza (and most like the West Bank now that they are doing their unity dance again in preperations of decalring statehood).

As far as direct trade goes, and legal arguments aside, its viewed as an internal Israeli issue as they are the ones in control of those 2 areas (as I said, save me the legal / illegal argument here, just providing info).

Its one thing to blockade Cuba, which is a soverign nation with full UN representation and diplomatic relations with foreign countries. Gaza on the other hand is not, under internatioal law, considered a soverign state. They do however have representation to the UN in the form of a group that represents their inerests, however they do not hold full UN membership.

Because of these statuses in place, the blockade of Gaza is between Israel and the Government of Hamas for Gaza, and is considered an internal issue under UN law / Humanitarin laws. Concindentally enough, thats one area that has been used to force Israel to end the blockade, since its viewed as collective punishment, which is outlawed by the UN.

Israel removed all of its forces from Gaza back in 2005, which raises the question of what exactly are they wanting? That action by Israel and its current polciy towards Gaza seem contradictory, at least to me.

Anyways... you get the idea as well as seeing how jacked up that situation is.

Originally posted by Shamatt
reply to post by IsraeliGuy

 

Isn't Ashdod in Israel?

Why would they go there? Meet them at sea and inspect them off the coast. Seems like a reasonable compromise.

that is a blockade too - it is, for example, what the British did to shipping in WW1 - and if anythign as suspect on hte ship they'd put a crew on board and sail it to a port for furtehr inspection.

Of course, there are those who would question the legality of Israel insisting on inspectionat all, consodering the boats are going to be in international waters, and not traveling to Israel.

the international laws for blockade are rather old, but there's nothing obviously illegal about the basic nature of the Israeli one.

As I understand the "rules":
1/ You have to declare a blockade - so that everyone knows wher ethe boundaries are.
2/ you have to enforce a blockade - if you only enforce it partially or sketchily then it's not legal - kind of weird, but true.....
3/ A blockade is, by definition, the interception of ships bound for any blockaded port (ie the fact that ships are not headed for Israel is irrelevant), and is perfectly entitled to operate in international waters
4/ A blockade is only for military or potentially war-useful materials

All these were determined prior to WW1 - during WW1 the British( essentially on their own, although on behalf of the Triple Alliance officially) "decided" that food could be eaten by soldiers, and if yuo shipped food to civiilans then that allowed other food to be given to soldiers - and pretty much the same for anything you could think of, so the list of contraband goods included everything - they very effectively shut down German trade.

They also limited trade to neutrals such as Denmark and the Netherlands so that goods and materials could not be imported to those countries and then passed on to Germany and Austria-Hungary - eg imports were restricted to pre-war levels wit hallowances for domestic growth.

the stopping of neutral ships heading to neutral ports (eg US ships to the Netherlands) was completely against the pre-war rules, and a major source of friction to the USA - there were even some calls for the US to ener the war on the side of Germany because of it IIRC!

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul

No spell check? Aloiseeus...or is it Aloysius?
It is absolutely absurd that there are "rules" for an illegal blockade to provide humanitarian aid to human beings. You can play all sorts of games with so-called "international" law, but you and I know (perhaps you don't know...), that there is NO international law. And when it comes to powerful countries, there is no law at all really.
Do you actually dispute that?
The government has a spell check, btw. It is probably free.

reply to post by SirClem


If there is no international law then how can anything Israel does possibly be illegal??

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul

It can't be illegal.
Who is arguing that?
If anything, I have only stated that they (Israel) are devoid of humanity, morality, and compassion. Speaking of course about their so-called "leadership".
Nothing about legality.
A lot of whores working for the powerful these days....

reply to post by SirClem


Short term memory problem huh?

Perhaps you can recall writing this?

Originally posted by SirClem
It is absolutely absurd that there are "rules" for an illegal blockade to provide humanitarian aid to human beings. You can play all sorts of games with so-called "international" law, but you and I know (perhaps you don't know...), that there is NO international law. And when it comes to powerful countries, there is no law at all really.
Do you actually dispute that?

So again - which is it - are there international laws under which hte blockade is illegal, or are there no such laws in which case hte blackade cannot be illegal??

The government has a spell check, btw. It is probably free.

If you know it has one I expect you to know whether it's free or not, and also how it is integrated with posting to ATS - or are you another conspiracy nut inventing stuff whenever it suits you?

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul

Huh?
You need more help if you are going to debate me on anything at all. Get your help, and let me know kid.

reply to post by SirClem


Right - so you posted that Israel had an illegal blockade, denied it a few minutes later, and I need help because of that.

gotcha - thanks for confirming my initial thoughts

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul
reply to post by SirClem

 

If there is no international law then how can anything Israel does possibly be illegal??

Firstly Israel has NEVER declared their action (war/occupation etc) in Gaza or Palestine so there is no way to decide legality without a starting reference..

Secondly, the "so called" International Law everyone is quoting is the San Reno Treaty and it's just that, a "Non Binding" treaty..

Originally posted by backinblack

If there is no international law then how can anything Israel does possibly be illegal??

Firstly Israel has NEVER declared their action (war/occupation etc) in Gaza or Palestine so there is no way to decide legality without a starting reference..

What does that even mean??

They have a blockade - it either conforms to some international law, or it does not, or there is no international law covering it - it's a fairly simple situation - although determining the details may not be.

If having to declare war is required to make a blockade legal, and they haven't declared war, then that would be pretty good evidence that ht blockade is illegal wouldn't it?

Secondly, the "so called" International Law everyone is quoting is the San Reno Treaty and it's just that, a "Non Binding" treaty..

Well then you should conclude that in the absence of any law, the blockade cannot be illegal - what's the problem??

You seem very confused....were you trying to make a point?

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul

Care to argue my points or just post more useless BS??

There's only two points..
Shouldn't be that hard..

reply to post by backinblack


I covered your points completely - how do you think I did otherwise??

Which if these do you think wasn't to the point, and I'll make then individual items to keep it simple for you:

1/ Something can only be illegal if it is against a/the law
2/ therefore the Israeli blockade is illegal if it is against international law
3/ If international law requires a declaration of war for a blockade to be legal, then Israel's failure to declare war would make the blockade illegal
4/ If the "international law" is actually only an unenforceable convention , and not actually law, then Israel's blockade is not actually illegal (since there is no actual law)

I sincerely hope that helps you with your problem.

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul


I said "most" are quoting the San Reno Treaty which is NOT a law..
But there are other laws but they DO require information such as what the action is before you can determine legality..

Israel refusing to state their position makes it impossible to say their actions are legal, therefore you can only determine them to be illegal..

reply to post by backinblack


I didn't actually notice anyone quoting the SR treaty until you mentioned it - who/when was it being quoted (by)?

If you cannot determine whether actions are legal it is also impossible to determine whether actions are illegal - you use the same criteria to determine both - if it meets the criteria for legality it is legal, if it does not it is illegal.

If you do not know what the criteria are then you cannot make a determination either way.

come on dude - this isn't advanced legal theory here - this is just real basic reasoning

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul

If you cannot determine whether actions are legal it is also impossible to determine whether actions are illegal - you use the same criteria to determine both - if it meets the criteria for legality it is legal, if it does not it is illegal.

What????
Shooting and killing someone is illegal unless you can prove your action is justified..
Israel shot and killed people on the last flotilla

Not sure how bad your memory is but you have been in many of these threads and the San Reno Treaty is about the only laws that have been mentioned, apart from the occasional mention of the Geneva Convention..

Originally posted by IsraeliGuy
Stop beating the bush.. you said inspect them and let them in, and that's exactly what they were offered. They refused, their problem.

Maybe they know that things like books and cement are not let in and Isreal takes import duty on the goods and does not pass the money on.

Who said Iserail should be allowed to police the high seas and everyone needs to dance to the tune of the IDF and MOSSAD agents because they say the ships are carring weapons.

Still if you want to beleive the rubish about paintball guns being used against peace protestors and didn't ask why all the video films of the attack were confiscated from the press aboard the aid convoy then thats up to you.

Respect for saying who you are as we get so many paid dis-info agents in forums and half the time i think they are web-bots just spamming the boards and i can see that is not he case with you.