Today's Immigration vs Our Ancestors

reply to post by Maslo


i had a very hard time getting my vegie garden growing until my greek neighbour showed me a few tricks (im australian), thats called education my friend and some people can't improve their way of life because they don't know how. I listened and learnt but before i did that, i used to nick a tomato or two. Most people are happy to learn and improve their lives but with no one offering what chance do they have.

reply to post by daskakik


alot of poor uneducated countries get food aid but no educational help at all and we the rich countries like it that way. We offer their government food and clothing aid in return for long term mining leases ec on their soil so we can make money. We have no incentive to make them self sufficient. Here in oz we had a example of simialr tactics revealed when the droughts were happening. No farmer could get water out of the murray darling system and were destitude, some were convicted or stealing water to survive while a internation mining company was allowed to pull millions of megalitres a week for tailing dams etc because of a 99 year contract previous governmant allowed years ago. Greed greed greed runs the world and polititions prey on racist public with propoganda to make us feel good about hating the foreigners.

First to the OP. What a great, non-emotional overview of a usually heated topic. You have presented the facts, without bias, in a wonderful, straight forward post.

Second...to some of the masses. The moment you throw words at other's opinions calling race, color, "extermination", etc., you look like idiots. Illegals, illegally entering and illegally staying in this country should be...illegal (great line huh?) The best part? It is illegal!!! The ONLY problem is that our BS government isn't enforcing the law. Why??? Votes and their continued power.

The simply fact, however, is this. Liberals will always support illegal activity. They will always support illegals, drug use, etc. They want some kind of Utopian society where unicorns collect flowers and bring them to people's front doors every morning with a smile. They also believe that the government should hold all the people's income and spoon feed us "what we need". As part of the realistic people in this country...I know this isn't reality. The government and many people (legal and illegal) are out to take anything and everything you own and earn. They are the vultures attacking a dying carcass, and the Liberals are the ones yelling at people not to throw stones at the carnivorous birds.

Oh yeah....PS: Immigration is a legal process...sneaking across the border to steal what America has, is not.

reply to post by WeAreAWAKE


You sound like a very educated person who has obviously met some illegals or encountered them personally. I have met quite a few and most are alot nicer and respectfull that people in this thread. Most take on # jobs that none of us want like toilet cleaning, delivering leaflets to mailboxes, collecting trolleys at shopping centre etc. These jobs suit them as they are not highly sort after and fairly abundant, language isn't a barrier as they don't need to speak much english and they pay cash. So what if they came here illegal. Would you rather use a dirty public toilet or hevean forbid not get your junk mail so you can look at all the great things to waste your next paycheck on, while the illegal send his home to feed his family that live in squaller. I waited 5 years to immigrate to australia going through due process and was fortunate enough to afford it. Many can not. To label them all vultures or criminal is ignorance. ATS DENY IGNORANCE

reply to post by WeAreAWAKE


people who aren,t racist and use to term toward attitudes like yours look like idiots. Yeah right champ. I have a feeling you don't have mirrors in your house and haven't walked by one lately otherwise you'd surely know whatan idiot and a racist looks like. Uncalled for i know but hey you deserve it

Originally posted by WeAreAWAKE
The simply fact, however, is this. Liberals will always support illegal activity. They will always support illegals, drug use, etc.

You do realize that they often push for a change in the laws so that these things are not illegal. It would seem that it's the other end of the spectrum that is interested in keeping things illegal. Why? There's alot of money to be made from locking people up for possesion, paying illegals low wages, etc.

This thread seems dead, but I'll respond anyway. Illegal is illegal. If you want to change the laws...go for it! There are a number I would change as well. However, in the mean time, the laws are there for a reason and should be obeyed. Someone who breaks the laws is a criminal. If "we" change the laws to allow anyone to just walk into our country, or change the laws so certain (or all) drugs are legal...my position changes.

What is so difficult to understand about that? If you don't agree with a law are you simply suggesting you break it and then complain when the police show up? That, to me, is stupidity. If the majority agree with you, the law can be changed. Good luck with that, because I don't think you have the votes.

Good night.

Originally posted by crikeyoioioi
reply to post by WeAreAWAKE

 

people who aren,t racist and use to term toward attitudes like yours look like idiots. Yeah right champ. I have a feeling you don't have mirrors in your house and haven't walked by one lately otherwise you'd surely know whatan idiot and a racist looks like. Uncalled for i know but hey you deserve it

Idiot...OK...maybe. But racist? I don't care who we are keeping out...white, black, brown, etc. If you are any race and not here legally, you should be sent home.

Good night again.

Originally posted by WeAreAWAKE
This thread seems dead, but I'll respond anyway. Illegal is illegal. If you want to change the laws...go for it!

That's what I said liberals want to change the laws. They meet resistence from those who want to keep making money from the way things stand.

What is so difficult to understand about that? If you don't agree with a law are you simply suggesting you break it and then complain when the police show up? That, to me, is stupidity.

Isn't that exactly what the founding fathers of the US did? Weren't they thought of as criminals because they dared question the kings laws.

Besides as I said before, if they are not being enforced then why would the cops show up?

daskakik,

One more time...I'm not against the laws being changed. But understand that breaking our laws is illegal. While I'm too busy to hang out and have a long conversation, I would love to hear the details you would change.

For example...in your opinion:
1. Can anyone get here anyway and be automatically made legal citizens?
2. Can illegals that are here just stay and be automatically made legal?
3. Anyone made legal...do they have to pay back-taxes?
4. Can any illegal that is now a criminal (eg. committed crimes since being here) stay also?
5. Who pays for the resources these people (who aren't currently legal) use? Medical, emergency rooms, land, roads, etc. In other words, do you suggest that we should pay for the resources these people use? (Example: Someone is here illegally and uses up $100,000 in emergency medical care etc. but doesn't pay taxes. Since we had to pay for that bill, do they owe that money back to us?)
6. If someone hides from the law long enough...should they simply get their way without punishment?

OK...now one that WILL get me some grief. Yes...the founding fathers were criminals. They broke the laws, etc. and at the time...if jailed, etc., they deserved it. Sorry, but it is true. HOWEVER...the founding fathers were fighting for the rights of all the American people...the majority. You, or should I say people that think illegal isn't illegal aren't fighting for the rights of all Americans. You are fighting for YOUR belief only...not the majority.

A little piece of lay-person law here. When the majority wants something, it can become a law. They can change laws, etc. But when the minority (or the individual) wants something, in opposition to the majority of all Americans...it won't likely happen. But the Liberals (who I assume you are one of) who think that they should break the law to enact change...while remaining the minority...they are nothing but criminals. Simply put...if a country of 100 people make a law, and 10 of those people disagree with that law...then breaking the law makes you a criminal. If a country of 100 people have a law imposed upon them, but 80 of those 100 people disagree with the law...then while breaking that law still makes you a criminal, you could one day be seen as an innovator. But of course, unless you are looking for a minority revolution on this single topic...you will likely be spending time in jail.

And finally...on your police enforcement comment. NOT enforcing a law made by the majority of Americans should, in itself, be illegal. Otherwise, the government can allow us to make laws and simply ignore them. But then again, you probably voted Obama...and he has done that with immigration, war and more.

I could say that smoking pot should be legal. I could then say that I will smoke pot, supporting my position or opinion. But if and when I'm caught and arrested, I would be proving stupidity by saying it is not illegal. It is. I simply chose to break the law. Why should others care if I broke the law? Because the next guy may decide that having sex with children should be legal...another guy may decide that killing a cheating spouse should be legal, etc. Is that the anarchy you think should exist? A country where the individual chooses what should be legal and simple does it? I support everyone's right to their opinion, but I oppose the minority trying to force their beliefs upon me, and in this case...the majority...and that translates to America. That is the reason some people would say your view is "anti-American"...because it is...because it is in opposition to the will of the majority of American's...which our founding fathers were...the majority of Americans.

Done! Time for me to get ready for work.

Originally posted by crikeyoioioi
reply to post by WeAreAWAKE

 

To label them all vultures or criminal is ignorance. ATS DENY IGNORANCE

Speaking factually only...

1. A vulture feeds on the flesh of another creature. Illegal aliens feed off the resources of America including medical care, use of resources without paying taxes, taking jobs, etc. The vulture may be hungry, but it remains a scavenger.

2. A criminal is someone who breaks the law. If anyone came here without going through the proper channels...they have broken the law and are therefore a criminal. Even if the person came here to feed their children, they remain a criminal.

NOTE: In court, you can plead "innocent" or "guilty". You can also plead "guilty, with an explanation". I would say illegals who are trying to feed their children fall to the latter. But note that it is still called "guilty".

Please also keep in mind that (number 1 above) while you may say "no one wants that job" it still must be done. Without illegals as a source to get that required job done, the employers would have to pay a fair wage until someone did want that job. So...an employer's access to illegal workers keeps that job from becoming a job an American wants. If you want to screw the system or the fat cats, remove the illegal worker option and force them to pay a legal American what is required to do the job. Access to illegal workers is one example of a quick-cheep-fix that will eventually destroy this country. Think of the quick-cheep-fix they used to do when dumping chemicals in the lakes and oceans. There is never a quick-cheep-fix that doesn't destroy. So...remove the option.

reply to post by WeAreAWAKE


post seems closed??? To busy to have a long conversation ?? Friend your here and posting more than most. Not disrespecting you, we value everones opinion and i like the way yours seems to be changing ever so slightly
laws do need to be respected regardless how much we agree or disagree. Peace and good will friend.

not intended for anyone specific..... The human race needs to become more collective in thinking than conflicting. Stop listening to propoganda and stop thinking me me me in regards to money, resourses. If you were looking at earth from the moon or somewhere from a universal perspective we would seem so small literally, you wouldn't even see the borders. We are a universal civilisation and our petty wars, laws and in fighting is holding us back. Love and tollerance for all.

money and economy the way it is set up is a big pyramid scheme. Surely everyone knows what a pyramid scheme is. Ever got a letter saying send the top three people on the list 10 dollars, delete the first and put your name last and send to 200 people and so on. its got out of control as to much unreal money has been lent from banks for mortgages etc that doesn't exist. Gov's have supported it to keep economy stable and slowed land release so the amount people burrow is reflecting in the land value the money was burrowed for as collateral . In principle land is a resourse but money on paper or in a computer is nothing. This has back fired and housing price has risen out of control since demand outways supply, people are living oout of means to survive. Release enough land for demand to slow, and prices fall which leaves those who bought first oweing more than they own in land value. Pyramid sceme. Our failing economies world wide are not a result anything other a big fake money lending sceme. Pyramid sceme as we all know will eventualyy always fail. No human other than psycopaths and sociopaths want anything other than a fair go. Our governmants haven,t intended to bend us over but they trusted the devil ( industrial banking ) and are to deep to get us out. Even though the money lent never existed they will repo your house which does. Every economy using imf or internation banking schemes totaly rely on a certain amount of bankrupt repos each year even though they lend you paper. Free loadering foreigners are one of many scapegoats we love to use as a excuse for our woes when really we should look closer to home.

as for the guilty with explanation, if i illegally immigrate to feed my family its ok. so does that mean i can sell crack to feed my family and its ok?

reply to post by WeAreAWAKE


Good points but I never said they shouldn't be punished for breaking any of those laws. Whether someone is fighting for the rights of a large group or their own personal rights doesn't make it any more right or wrong.

As for the questions you posted it isn't about letting "anyone" in or allowing them to stay.

Who pays for them? If they work with fake papers don't taxes get taken out of their paycheck. If i'm not mistaken roads are paid by a tax on gasoline so if they are buying gas they are paying their fair share. There's probably a few examples like that.

NOT enforcing a law made by the majority of Americans should, in itself, be illegal.

Americans don't make laws, your representatives do. Different agencies enforce the laws and are told what to enforce and what not to enforce. Criminal? Sure but how are you gonna go after them (the agencies and those that gave the orders)?

NOTE: In court, you can plead "innocent" or "guilty". You can also plead "guilty, with an explanation". I would say illegals who are trying to feed their children fall to the latter. But note that it is still called "guilty".

Not all courts are the same. What you describe is criminal court. There are also civil courts. In any case immigration cases don't go to court they have hearings. They are administrative procedures. They do include a judge and presentation of evidence but it's more like a hearing before a school board than a criminal court.

So...an employer's access to illegal workers keeps that job from becoming a job an American wants. If you want to screw the system or the fat cats, remove the illegal worker option and force them to pay a legal American what is required to do the job.

Again, that is what I said. Now how are you gonna remove the illegal worker option? You don't make or enforce the laws and the fat cats buy those that do.

Originally posted by ABWarrior58
as for the guilty with explanation, if i illegally immigrate to feed my family its ok. so does that mean i can sell crack to feed my family and its ok?

Sure does. During prohibition people sold alcohol illegaly. Now there are people selling alcohol all over the place to the tune of $100 billion a year. The only thing that changed is the law because this change didn't make alcohol any better or any worse.

Doesn't mean you wont get punished if caught but it is a victimless crime. Some argue that if there is no victim then there is no harm so there is no reason for it to be illegal and therefore infinges on your natural rights.

reply to post by ABWarrior58


You are ignorant of history. And I can only assume it is because you are a bigot. You have been spoon fed inaccurate information by someone or some group that already knew you were the type of person who would not do your own research and learn the truth.

Congratulations little fish. Yer hooked!

reply to post by Butterbone


Actually I am more historically sound than most people that I know. I am in no way shape or form a bigot. My opinions on here never accused a race of people of being less or more than any other. I simply said if you want to contribute to our society to do it legally and pay taxes. That doesn't make me a bigot. A bigot would come on here and say white power, and they took our jobs in classic south park fashion. I sir, never said these things. I even said I welcome legal immigrants with open arms. If you're going to insult someone, have the facts straight.