Atheists, be honest. We know it, you know it.

reply to post by TylerDurden2U

when you refer to christian, why do you include pope and priests? those people worship mary, and a string with beads on it. big difference in christian and catholic.

Catholicism is a denomination of Christianity. As are Protestantism, Mormonism and Quakers. Christianity is a HUGE group heading for ALL religions that follow Christ's teachings.

reply to post by TylerDurden2U

when you refer to christian, why do you include pope and priests? those people worship mary, and a string with beads on it. big difference in christian and catholic.

Tyler, I saw a couple of your one-liners on the previous page, but really, listen to the occasional benevolent heretic, they're right about Christians. But isn't it interesting how various Christian groups love to constantly belittle each other, and discount the value of some other Christian groups?

BTW, just for your info, Catholics aren't supposed to "worship Mary", or a string of beads either! If this is what you're "learning" about other groups from your group, then you just found one good reason to find the exit. They're feeding you poopoo.

What they may be saying about many others could no doubt be just as ignorant.

Get with the program: Deny ignorance!

JR

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Catholicism is a denomination of Christianity. As are Protestantism, Mormonism and Quakers. Christianity is a HUGE group heading for ALL religions that follow Christ's teachings.

Having been Mormon for 5 years - - I can attest - - they are definitely Christian. Even though they themselves try to set themselves apart.

Jesus is their one and only savior - - - and I got really tired of having to memorize bible verses every week. They use the King James bible.

Originally posted by Lionhearte

The real reason you will not believe in Christianity is because it would interfere too much in your daily life. You'll feel like you're being forced to stop drinking and smoking and all the things deemed "wrong" by the Bible that you'll soon start to think that it's nothing more but "control".

Again.



So you live you're life in complete accordance with the bibles rules? You have never lied, stolen, cheated, spoken the lords name in vain even one time in your life? You may be the very first if true.

There seems to be plenty of smoking, drinking, drug using, law breaking christians out there. Their faith doesn't seem to prevent them from doing these "wrong" things. Now that I think about it, every time a celebrity messes up they bring out the "i'm a good christian" routine.

reply to post by TylerDurden2U


I only used those words as references. The sentence started with books and went on from there. But back to the OP...do you really care if people are atheist or don't believe in your religion? Does it really matter what people believe in or in my case choose not to believe. In my honest opinion organized religions are the great scourge of this planet and choose not to belong to any of them. But I don't go around posting on ATS with a headline reading "People that are religious are out of their minds...PLEASE READ." I choose to understand other peoples cultures and religions without holding a grudge about that said person.

Originally posted by TheUniverse
reply to post by Lionhearte

 

I am Agnostic always have been which means i doubt truth of Religion and/or Uncertain to all claims of knowledge.

I claim to know nothing

-Socrates "I know that i know Nothing."

edit on 28-6-2011 by TheUniverse because: (no reason given)

Don't you think it would be alot smarter to say "All I know is that I have a whole lot to Learn"? Admitting that you don't know anything doesn't make one look very smart, because that would be a lie.

reply to post by Lionhearte


Lionhearte -

Start with the prophecies for Jesus. Look up every prophecy mentioned in the new testament, and read it in context. Read Isaiah 7 IN CONTEXT. The whole chapter. Notice how you can't even find some of the so-called referenced prophecies, because they were invented. Just do that and tell me what you think.

reply to post by olliemc84


jesus himself said the church had turned the temple into a den of thieves! corruption can ruin anything good. what is important is the word of god and what you do with it. you dont need a queer in a robe to tell you what the bible says. read it for your own salvation. be in the world and not of it. the world is filled with evil and corruption.

Originally posted by TylerDurden2U
reply to post by olliemc84

 

jesus himself said the church had turned the temple into a den of thieves! corruption can ruin anything good. what is important is the word of god and what you do with it. you dont need a queer in a robe to tell you what the bible says. read it for your own salvation. be in the world and not of it. the world is filled with evil and corruption.

You may be right about the Pope's persuasion Tyler, but like it or not, the historic European church (Catholic), gave you your "word of god".

Think about that. Your Bible came from a "den of thieves", as you put it. This isn't conjecture, it's what happened, you should look it up. Before there was a "book" at all, there was a church. At some point, the Church collected the various stories circulating, decided what was pertinent, and declared what was to be in the book we call the Bible today.

So, maybe you don't need anyone wearing a robe to tell you what the Bible says, but it was the guys in the robes that gave you the book in the first place. You might as well suck it up, and go the rest of the way then, logically speaking. If they gave you your book, why not go back and listen to what their opinion is on their book?

I'm not an apologist for the Catholic Church, I'm not a religionist, but history tells us a few things, and that book you've got didn't just magically appear out of the sky. (You know that, right?)

JR

Didn't jesus stress the point of not worshiping him, but that people should worship god and he was just the messenger?

I love how science...like geology is conveniently thrown out the window when "Christianity" comes to play. The Grand Canyon wasn't created overnight by some giant flood. To look at just the canyon you might think that, but when taking the entire region into account, the canyon has succumbed to erosion over millennia. Besides, it would have to be a localized flood, only where the canyon was located to get the results that some tribal indians spoke about. Wind erosion and water erosion, and most importantly, the soil and rock stratification caused the erosion. Not god. Not some great flood less than 6,000 years ago. Science is there to explain things. Science was not invented to conveniently leave out when someone decides to start talking about the tooth fairy. Science explains fossils....and archaeology....and genetics....and geology. Shoots, science is even starting to explain quantum theory. God explains santa squeezing down a chimney. God explains the Easter bunny hiding eggs all over. God does not describe a person picking up a car to save someone. Science explains that.

So, that is the main reason why I don't believe in the Christian "GOD". He conveniently comes out when someone has a tough time explaining something. Usually is the case when someone doesn't have a clue about something.

Just my two cents.

reply to post by TylerDurden2U


You are incredible! Read it for my own salvation??? I don't need to be saved. I am a happy healthy content individual with a 2 1/2 year old son that loves me more than life itself, and I love him the same. Maybe I will read the bible when they put the books that were excluded back in. I want to hear the whole story not what some self righteous wingnut(s) decided was palatable for human consumption. As for right now, I believe in nothing. No god, there was a Christ, but no miracle worker. Just a man that was listened to by many and died for what he believed. He didn't walk out of the tomb after his crucifixion. He wasn't born of a virgin mother. I don't believe in fairy tales. Not to say what was written in the bible didn't actually happen. Could've been a huge misunderstanding. Honestly I believe in the ancient alien theory over anything else.

But after reading a few of your replies I'm starting to believe that you have no idea what you are talking about, so...

Preach on Preacher-man!!

reply to post by olliemc84

na-nu na-nu. any special way to make those tin foil hats that will protect us when nibiru 2012 martian space bunker comet followers with ray gun shooty things try to mind control us to buy iraqi dinars?

reply to post by JR MacBeth


the bible didnt just pop out of the sky? oh, i thought maybe them aliens dropped it over isreal when they were dropping off them pyramids in egypt, on their way to mexico, by way of georgia to drop off the gayed stones. are you sure? any documentation you would like to share to back that up? maybe a link? or should i just have "faith" that was NOT devinely inspired, and there was nothing to back it up(dead sea scrolls)?????

Originally posted by TylerDurden2U
reply to post by JR MacBeth

 

the bible didnt just pop out of the sky? oh, i thought maybe them aliens dropped it over isreal when they were dropping off them pyramids in egypt, on their way to mexico, by way of georgia to drop off the gayed stones. are you sure? any documentation you would like to share to back that up? maybe a link? or should i just have "faith" that was NOT devinely inspired, and there was nothing to back it up(dead sea scrolls)?????

Sorry about the sky remark, obviously, you know better.

So, we're in agreement then, that the book called the "bible" had to be produced by someone, or more than one person?

We're in agreement that history isn't too far off, when it reports that a church council, composed of "guys in robes" (as you put it), made decisions to include this book, and exclude that book, to ultimately compile the collection of books now called the "bible"?

As to whether you should have "faith" that it is divinely "inspired"? Under the circumstances, I would love to hear your reasons why you would continue to have "faith" when all evidence shows clearly, that very human (not alien!) agencies were responsible for the book you seem to have so much "faith" in.

As far as "documentation", that's a good one too. If you are at the disadvantage of not being able to read ancient languages, you're simply going to have to have "faith", that your translation is OK. Otherwise, could be an ugly conspiracy afoot, to deceive the simple.

Actually, you don't need to be a linguist to understand that "God" does not need a "book" to communicate with us.

In fact, for the first few centuries, there wasn't "a book" at all. Sure, there was a church, some collected writings that may have been preserved, etc. Fine. But what about all the writings that didn't make the final cut? As the BISHOPS of the council examined the material, wouldn't it have been interesting to "examine" their cutting-room floor? What haven't we been told?

But honest people don't even need to go there! In fact, a very low bar has seemingly been set for issues like this, that involves COMMON SENSE.

Ever hear of "Shoeless" Joe Jackson? He played baseball in America in the early part of the last century.

Do you know what one of his signed baseball cards are worth? Depends. If it's got a "signature" on it, it's not worth so much. Why? Because he couldn't read. He was illiterate. Great ball player, but it was all Greek to him!

Imagine now. This was not even quite a hundred years ago! Amazingly, people generally didn't learn to read until rather recently, in the grand scheme of things.

"If" God needed a book, for people to find him, then he picked a very poor way to do it.

Come on Tyler, give the Man Upstairs a little credit!

For crying out loud, I'm pretty sure even Santa Claus is smarter than that!

JR

reply to post by JR MacBeth


yes im aware the bible was written by human hands. the story of moses was very clear about that. it also was clear that a voice spoke to him. even documented exorsist have recorded people speaking ancient dialecs that one could not possibly know. good and evil do exist. i just have faith that it is the way it is written. yes, i believe there are books that could have been added. and i also believe until this last hundred years, they were not needed( education has pushed mankind to thirst for knowledge, and if we dont get it we look for a reason why).. the bible also says in the end, there will be an increase in knowledge. i believe we are there. yes it is documented that every century, or generation(60 years) there is a belief that this is it! man kind has riden horses for all of time, and in the last 100 years weve changed that to spaceships. i would say that is signifant to the timeline.

Originally posted by TylerDurden2U
reply to post by JR MacBeth

 

yes im aware the bible was written by human hands. the story of moses was very clear about that. it also was clear that a voice spoke to him. even documented exorsist have recorded people speaking ancient dialecs that one could not possibly know. good and evil do exist. i just have faith that it is the way it is written. yes, i believe there are books that could have been added. and i also believe until this last hundred years, they were not needed( education has pushed mankind to thirst for knowledge, and if we dont get it we look for a reason why).. the bible also says in the end, there will be an increase in knowledge. i believe we are there. yes it is documented that every century, or generation(60 years) there is a belief that this is it! man kind has riden horses for all of time, and in the last 100 years weve changed that to spaceships. i would say that is signifant to the timeline.

Thanks. The fact that you know the Bible is a human creation is a good starting point. Of course, I also could guess that you think it's more than just that. Let me repeat my earlier question:

As to whether you should have "faith" that it is divinely "inspired"? Under the circumstances, I would love to hear your reasons why you would continue to have "faith" when all evidence shows clearly, that very human (not alien!) agencies were responsible for the book you seem to have so much "faith" in.

And what you said was:

i just have faith that it is the way it is written

Don't you have "reasons" for having faith? Or, do you "just" have it?

Actually, everyone has reasons for believing the things they do. Most of the time, they're not well thought-out, but that's mainly because we don't always need to think everything out. Like gravity. Apparently, quite a few scientists still grapple with this one. But, we all still generally "believe" that it's holding us, and everything else, down. We don't need to know scientific details, and theories.

But what about "religious" ideas that a person might "believe" in? Usually, they're not important, so when it comes down to it, it doesn't matter. Like gravity, we don't all have to be experts on a thing, so many may "believe" that there was a person we call "Jesus", that lived a long time ago. None of us have met him (physically, I presume), but even non-christians may "believe" that way.

There is "reason" though. Because it's a bit of history, and it could have been that way, and there's not much harm done one way or the other. That's the case for the non-believer anyway. (Although, keep in mind, even if you don't "believe" in gravity, I would still not recommend jumping off of tall buildings.)

But what about the believer? What if you end up actually "doing" things, or not doing things, based on what (you think) you "believe"?

Of course, that's not so much the problem, because everyone acts based on belief to some extent. But, if you don't seem to have reasons (and they should be "good" reasons, depending upon the particular belief), then I could even conclude that society itself might have a stake in "your" beliefs.

I'll mention an extreme example, just to help make the point. Let's say that you sincerely believe that the sun won't rise tomorrow, unless you sacrifice a virgin before the sun sets today. By "sacrifice", I don't mean just her virginity, but maybe your belief says she has to die, be thrown down from the top of a pyramid, whatever...

That's a problem, wouldn't you say?

I don't want to lose you here, but now just imagine you were a member of that religious group that "just" believes this.

You know what? I wouldn't necessarily fault you if you were in a certain class of ancient Aztec, because actually they had some reasons for what they believed. But what if you were just a regular average Aztec, and you had no clue what the priests knew, but you just went along, "just" believing?

In this situation, ethically speaking, you could be considered partly "culpable" for the deaths taking place while you remain (willfully) ignorant. I hope you can see why.

OK, so that's the "extreme" example. Now what if your Christian church found the scripture about blood products, and your little child was dying, and needed a blood transfusion? Would you be able to say, "No way! The Lord prohibits such defilement! Says so right HERE, in this Book, which I 'just' believe in." Never mind the translation issues, or the fact that your pastor is one of very few who interpret the verse that particular way, forget all that for a minute. Back to reality...

Please forgive your good doctor when his head droops, upon hearing your faithful declarations. He means you no disrespect (he's probably Jewish anyway), but he might just want to...Ring your neck!

Moral of the story? Find reasons for what you believe. Make them good reasons. If your "faith" should crumble in the process, have no fear! If you are truly "seeking", ye shall find. (I just believe it!)

JR

PS: I think that the OP, and probably you too Tyler, are seeking, which is why you find yourselves in this thread!

the reason im in this thread to begin with was I cant imagine a world without God. if someone insults god, i felt the insult. now however, i understand. these things have to happen according to scripture, vengence is mine saith the lord, and be in the world and not of it. the reason i found Ats, is i was looking for current events that link to prophecy. boy did i find it! i dont need a sword when the economy collapses. i dont need a bug out bag. i dont want for anything now and nor will i when the grid goes down. that may sound dumb to a survivalist out there, but my angle is different. what did Jesus say to Peter when he was arrested! or what about the farmer who prays for rain but doesnt plow his field?doesnt have much faith at all, does he? economic collapse, emp grid failure, wwiii, are just change of circumstance. i have faith, that the shtf scenerio is coming! one city, one state one country at a time. the US is spliting at the seams and most people(speculation) out there are clueless. BRING IT! Greater is He in me, then he that is in the world.

Originally posted by TylerDurden2U
the reason im in this thread to begin with was I cant imagine a world without God. if someone insults god, i felt the insult. now however, i understand. these things have to happen according to scripture, vengence is mine saith the lord, and be in the world and not of it. the reason i found Ats, is i was looking for current events that link to prophecy. boy did i find it! i dont need a sword when the economy collapses. i dont need a bug out bag. i dont want for anything now and nor will i when the grid goes down. that may sound dumb to a survivalist out there, but my angle is different. what did Jesus say to Peter when he was arrested! or what about the farmer who prays for rain but doesnt plow his field?doesnt have much faith at all, does he? economic collapse, emp grid failure, wwiii, are just change of circumstance. i have faith, that the shtf scenerio is coming! one city, one state one country at a time. the US is spliting at the seams and most people(speculation) out there are clueless. BRING IT! Greater is He in me, then he that is in the world.

Yeah, I see where you're coming from I think. I have Christian friends, and family too, and some are quite sensitive to things that sound perhaps a tad "blasphemous". Nothing wrong with that. Hopefully, as I interact with them, I still manage some semblance of civility of course.

Obviously, on a thread like this on ATS, you're going to have to grow a thick skin. But, hopefully you learn something too. And I'm not saying this as an agnostic, pushing an agenda, this is true for everyone. Probably most of us can learn something from just about everyone.

One small point that I think is important, that I mentioned in my previous post, I'd like to revisit:

What if you end up actually "doing" things, or not doing things, based on what (you think) you "believe"?

I hope that my repetition is not too burdensome, but your reply, while very full of conviction, fire, and what seems like heart-felt sentiment, would be perhaps a bit "worrisome", if it was coming from one of my kids (I'm an older guy).

Not that passion is a bad thing of course, but if you recall where I ended up with my example, about doing things, sometimes crazy or destructive things, based on beliefs, with my example of those Christians who refuse blood transfusions, well, if you're a father, you might worry too, if one of your kids came up to you, and informed you that your grandchild "had to die", because of their beliefs.

This stuff happens, in "real" life, and sadly, the occasional life cut too short, because of someone's "beliefs".

So, now lets listen to yourself. Besides believing in Jesus, you believe a host of other (scary) things too. I may think some of those things may be coming down the pike as well BTW, but we've got to be careful I think, of taking too many mere possibilities, as virtual givens.

Sounds like you're very "prepared", probably more than the average person. That's good. Would you be willing to shoot someone maybe, who might be trying to take some of your food? That's OK, self-defense. What if the one you shot lay dying, and asked you a final question, something like, "Why did you shoot me? I had a message from your...your brother..."

OK, not insinuating anything, not putting anything on "you", but a lot of people are out there, so scared about just about everything, that they may not even know how "dangerous" they could be, by the time the SHTF scenario hits.

If it was me, I might be wondering why my faith in Jesus wasn't quite enough. Maybe wonder why I was so scared. Or, maybe I would think on it, and the next day wonder if maybe I was too overconfident instead.

So, you're prepared, your faith has had you doing things to this end. Good. What have you NOT done, in the meantime, had your "faith", or (exaggerated?) fears not been so "strong"?

Again, not judging "you" in particular, more or less just voicing thoughts about many people with strong beliefs. I'm sure you can forgive my wandering off in this direction, considering the many millions who have died through history, when strong "faith" collided, with fragile life.

JR