The very likely direction this thing is going in....

atimes.com...

Potential consequences

Originally posted by dragonrider
atimes.com...

Potential consequences

And the conclusion is?

1st: It's funny the way you dismiss some foreign media and admit other as truth.

2nd: Let's suppose that is truth. So what? The end of USA imperialism to see EU imperialism? Don't get mad, we'll do almost as better as you did. No concerns here, we are democrats as well

3rd: Again, it's funny you believe that media. The USA grip on the rest of the world will finnish some day (hopefully), but I don't think it would be in the near future .

Not to bring you anti-NWO crusaders down, but if prophesy is correct, then there won't be anyone to stop the NWO. So I don't think we will be able to do anything about it. Either not enough people will ever believe us, or we will be killed, assassinated, or nuked! I wish we could do something, believe me. Hmm. UNLESS we could POSTPONE it. That could be a possiblity. I don't think it's too likely though. Either way we need to continue to get the message out!

But one point to say. If we EU have survided and managed ourselves fairly well with the OPEC using the dollar, why you think you couldn't manage as well with the OPEC using the �uro? Posted by Maku

There is a bit more to it than just the US suffering a serious economic collapse... It will be the entire planet. For the last 75 years or so, the US has been *the* superpower for the planet, has had its fingers in most every economic pie on the planet. All the major governments and economic systems are very much intertwined in banks and economic lending systems set up by the US.

If we go down, about 80% of the planet will go down.

Yes, the EU will in general profit from just such an occurrence. In such a scenario, the EU would be about the only ones to profit. However, the rest of the planet will essentially become a huge 3rd world country with unemployment going to well over 50% for all industrialized nations.

When a depression that bad comes up, the only way out of it is a massive war. If you think we have wasted lives in Iraq, wait till you see the war this will cause.

Originally posted by Endisnear
Not to bring you anti-NWO crusaders down, but if prophesy is correct, then there won't be anyone to stop the NWO. So I don't think we will be able to do anything about it. Either not enough people will ever believe us, or we will be killed, assassinated, or nuked! I wish we could do something, believe me. Hmm. UNLESS we could POSTPONE it. That could be a possiblity. I don't think it's too likely though. Either way we need to continue to get the message out!

Hey my uncle in prison read this book written by a CIA agent that has been killed since he wrote the book but it states that after the war the gov't is going to say that terrorists are going to launch a bomb at us and then the gov't is going to declare Martial Law. Then the gov't will start taking everyone's guns and such and it says in the book to not be at home on national holidays because that's when they will come round up people to take them to Prison Camps to be tortured. The book is called "Behold the Pale Horse" It was written by Gary or William Cooper one of the 2 but this is a must read for everyone.

Originally posted by dragonrider
There is a bit more to it than just the US suffering a serious economic collapse

No one says that *will* collapse USA economy

... It will be the entire planet. For the last 75 years or so, the US has been *the* superpower for the planet, has had its fingers in most every economic pie on the planet. All the major governments and economic systems are very much intertwined in banks and economic lending systems set up by the US.

If we go down, about 80% of the planet will go down.

You allways think you are the ones to count on, don't you? All the major governments and economic systems have accounts on Swiss banks, Deutsche Bank, Paribas, BSCH,...

Yes, the EU will in general profit from just such an occurrence. In such a scenario, the EU would be about the only ones to profit. However, the rest of the planet will essentially become a huge 3rd world country with unemployment going to well over 50% for all industrialized nations.

1st) Almost the rest of the planet actually is a huge 3rd world country.
2nd) As said, even you going down (which I really doubt), most of the countryes are involved with EU banks and industries.

BTW, dragonrider: There is a member here that is called Mokuhadsushi or kinda. I think you are confusing me with him. I'm not. Stop refering me as Moku.

Thanks.

[Edited on 2003-4-9 by MakodFilu]

This might kick things off in the east...

Unidentified aircraft originating from China or N Korea violated Japanese airspace.

www.swissinfo.org...

It was a UFO, elvis came by and brought me to dinner.
Seriously, he doing fine by the way for all those who were buisy, he said he would stop in again soon.

only when the planes start shooting at things will it kick off a war.

however, the united states age of imperialism is soon coming to an end indeed. there is nothing anyone can do. it will affect the rest of the world somehow, and the people of the us will suffer. america is too dependant on money and other countries. we need a 'do' not dollar society. where instead of babblin on about price we just do. soon we will rise again. this is the people's nation.

PC you sound no different than the Brainwashed Soviet. Get real, Imperialism is a make-believe tool used by dictators to criticize the world's democracies.

And it is possible that America stores the world's "gold" as a back up incase the dollar suddenly is worthless.

America can always go back onto a Gold standard with 80billion in reserves, which would more than make USA the richest country in the world. Of course stealing all that gold would piss a lot of others off, but it would also deflate their economies...probably a reason we horde it all for them. Much like a collateral.

America can always go back onto a Gold standard with 80billion in reserves, which would more than make USA the richest country in the world. Of course stealing all that gold would piss a lot of others off, but it would also deflate their economies...probably a reason we horde it all for them. Much like a collateral. Posted by whoever the hell

Do you really think we have enough gold in the US, or in US possession to back the dollar? Do you somehow think that $80 billion would be enough??? That will barely cover the tab for the war!

That gold has left the country long ago... Do you wonder why Fort Knox has NEVER issued an inventory of its contents? It is a public relations project to make people think we do in fact have gold. The gold standard has been ineffective for over 40 years.

we have intrest puppets the world over. israel, guam, hell even puerto rico, and a lot of other places, phillipenes, so was hawaii. hell it's almost like GB is becoming our loyal terrier. oh ya two new ones to add to the list, afghanistan and iraq, syria soon to follow.
germany still doesn't have a large standing offense army, and we still got probs in korea. anyway, the age of US imperialism IS coming to an END. accept it as i have acceoted i have no idea what your name is.

Round One *ding ding*

Russia fires first shots in post-war battle for oil wealth
By Anton La Guardia, Diplomatic Editor
(Filed: 18/04/2003)


Russia said yesterday it would resist any "automatic" lifting of economic sanctions against Iraq, exchanging with America the first salvoes in the diplomatic battle for Iraq's oil wealth.

It will be waged in the language of United Nations resolutions. But it is about how the post-Saddam Hussein goverment will be created, who will be its favoured trading partners and, ultimately, who will control Iraq's oil industry: the coalition, a future interim Iraqi government or the UN.

President George W Bush caught British officials by surprise on Wednesday when he said Washington would soon table a UN resolution to end sanctions. "Now that Iraq has been liberated, the UN should lift economic sanctions," he said.

But Igor Ivanov, the Russian foreign minister, insisted yesterday that sanctions could not be removed until Iraq had complied with UN disarmament resolutions.

"This decision cannot be automatic. It demands that conditions laid out in corresponding UN Security Council resolutions be fulfilled," Mr Ivanov said. "For the Security Council to take this decision, we need to be certain whether Iraq has weapons of mass destruction or not."

France, which led opposition to the war, responded more cautiously, but made clear that conditions would be attached. "The lifting of sanctions is an aim which we have supported for a long time. Now it is naturally for the UN to define the modalities for lifting the sanctions," said President Jacques Chirac.

Under UN sanctions, Iraq can export its crude oil only under the supervision of the UN oil-for-food programme.

Revenues must be paid into a UN account, and the funds are then used to buy civilian goods under the scrutiny of the UN sanctions committee.

America says Iraq needs to export oil freely to raise desperately needed funds to buy humanitarian supplies.

But Russia and France fear that an early lifting of sanctions would mean control of Iraq's oilfields would effectively pass into the hands of the coalition or an embryonic interim Iraqi administration heavily influenced by Washington.

Maintaining UN controls would ensure a degree of influence in shaping the post-Saddam era for France and Russia, which were among the main beneficiaries of trade with Saddam and seek to defend their commercial interests.

I couldn't help but ask if anyone knows or has heard that it is possible to produce gold from lead? (My science teacher brought it up in class the other day.)

I pray you're being sarcastic.

No. There isn't.

An effective excuse to go into Syria


At Least 7 Iraqi Leaders Believed to Be in Syria
By DOUGLAS JEHL


ASHINGTON, April 18 � The United States believes that at least seven senior Iraqi officials are now in Syria, including a figure who is No. 8 on the American wanted list, defense officials said today.

The most senior Iraqi identified in American intelligence reports as being in Syria is Kamal Mustapha Abdullah al-Tikriti, secretary of the Republican Guard and Special Republican Guard, the officials said.

In recent days, the State Department has relayed to Syria the names of Iraqi officials believed to be there, with a request that they be expelled, administration officials said today. It was not clear whether Mr. Tikriti was on that list. A State Department official said tonight he had not heard Mr. Tikriti was in Syria.

The American military has also stepped up its search efforts in parts of northwestern Iraq near the Syrian border where some senior Iraqi officials are now suspected to be hiding.

For more than a week, administration officials including Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld have said that they believed some Iraqi officials or their families escaped to Syria and perhaps beyond.

In their public statements, the officials have not been more specific about who they believed to be in Syria. But in a television interview broadcast on Thursday night, Secretary of State Colin L. Powell said the United States had provided Syria with "some information concerning specific named individuals that we would hope they will look into."

The only other Iraqis that administration officials said they believed were in Syria and cited by name were Farouk Hijazi, Iraq's ambassador to Tunisia and a former senior intelligence operative, and possibly President Saddam Hussein's first wife, Sajida Khairallah Telfah.

The concerns about the flight of Iraqi officials have aggravated an already difficult relationship between the United States and Syria. Bush administration officials have long expressed concern that Syria is developing chemical weapons and about its support for organizations the United States considers terrorist, including Hezbollah and the Palestinian groups Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

Mr. Powell has said he plans to travel to Syria later this spring to discuss all those issues with its leader, President Bashar al-Assad.

The defense officials who identified Mr. Tikriti as the highest-ranking Iraqi believed to be in Syria spoke on condition of anonymity and would not describe the basis for the intelligence reports. They said he was among seven or eight Iraqis on the American list who are believed to be in Syria.

United States forces in Iraq have detained several high-ranking Iraqi officials in recent days, and other Iraqis have surrendered to American troops. But none have been ranked as high as Mr. Tikriti on the American list.

The Syrian government has repeatedly denied having granted refuge to any Iraqi officials, and said it had closed its border to Iraqis. American officials say those border posts have indeed been closed in recent days, a step they have characterized as positive, but they say it is possible that Iraqi leaders may be finding other routes into Syria.

Of Iraq's six neighbors � the others are Turkey, Iran, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and Jordan � Syria had by far the closest economic and political ties with the Baghdad government, and it is regarded by intelligence officials as being the most likely escape route for fleeing Iraqi officials.

American forces in Iraq have now begun the process of sorting through Iraqi prisoners of war to determine who should remain in custody.

In the last two weeks, coalition forces have released 887 Iraqis detained during the war who have since been determined to be noncombatants, the Pentagon said today.

"Our intention is not to hold prisoners indefinitely and to get these people processed as soon as possible," said Cmdr. Chris Isleib, a Pentagon spokesman.

But nearly 7,000 Iraqi prisoners are still being held at camps in the southern city of Umm Qasr, where the United States is constructing what it has named its Theater Internment Facility. An unknown number of additional prisoners are still at temporary holding units elsewhere or are with the military units who captured them, the officials said.

Under the Geneva Convention, prisoners of war can be held until the end of hostilities, a condition the United States is not likely to declare for weeks or even months. But noncombatants who did not engage in hostile acts during the war and were not part of a military force are to be released as soon as their status is determined.

Among the prisoners held at Umm Qasr are a number of high-ranking Iraqi officers, according to defense officials. They are being interrogated as part of the broader American effort to seek out other Iraqi officials who have evaded capture and to obtain information about Iraq's suspected caches of illegal weapons.

In other military developments today, the Pentagon said it had recovered and identified the remains of an Air Force pilot missing since his F-15E fighter jet went down in Iraq on April 7. The pilot was identified as Capt. Eric B. Das, 30, of Amarillo, Tex., and his status was changed from missing to killed in action.

The search for the plane's weapons officer, who has not been publicly identified, is continuing. The confirmation of Captain Das's death brings to 128 the number of American military personnel killed in the war. Two Americans are still listed as missing � the second F-15 crew member and Army Sgt. Edward J. Anguiano, 24, of Brownsville, Tex., missing since his convoy was ambushed on March 23 in Iraq.

No Americans are listed as prisoners of war from the current conflict.

hmmm, that sucks. we needn't anymore war. we need to keep our fingers out of the worlds arse. there is no reason for us to be fighting at all! if we hadn't gone over there in the first place things would be really different. most of the attacks against us, by militant extremist groups, are in retaliation for us occupation of areas in their 'holy land'. it's the oil we're after. the oil barons are too greedy to let go of their own power and make our nations switch to hydrocell. that's what it was in the past, that was what led them to hate us, and that is what fuels their rage for war now. i guess you'd call me an isolationist. last time that happened, what'd it get us. pearl harbor. but we weren't ready. why not? cos we were staying out of it. just cos you're on the sidelines, it doesn't mean you're not going to get hit when the bomb goes off. if we are aware, and ready, but not involved, we'll do just as good. and stay impartial. that was our fault. we supplied the enemies during wwi and wwii. if we stayed impartial, it may not be immediatly great, but after a few years, we'll start to see changes. no more democrats and republicans. we must do what we must instead of worryin about method! if we just do what has to be done, then things will change.

lookin at things now, any chance of a military move against syria has vanished. unless they do something big. they seem to be complying with what we ask, and aren't trying to do anything against us. this is very good news for the US, if we got involved in another conflict, chances are the mess would bloom into a black rose for the US. i haven't really considered any other threats. hezbollah seems like a good target, as does north korea. the latter to be handled diplomatically. which also seems to be working. most of the cocky regimes look like they have shutup and sit down, ever since we proved in iraq that we aren't freakin around. i think that may have been the goal along. hopefully, this is a sign that things are looking up....

PC:

The one fault where you talk about being an isolationist is that in todays economy, there is no such thing. It is an international economy, and as such, we have no alternative than to operate as one. If we were to shut our borders and allow no further import or export of goods, the US would go financially belly up in a matter of months if not weeks.

As it is, the US has always been the big dog when it comes to international economy. The problem is, we have gotten so big that we are top heavy and are trying not to tumble. The smaller group waiting in the wings, the EU, are doing thier damnest to trip us up so they can jump in the empty spot we will leave. At this juncture, there really is no other way out other than armed conflict in exactly the way we are doing it.

Also, the Pearl Harbor refernce: At that point in 1941, the US, people and government, were very isolationist in nature (at the time, we could be, but no more). The plan to attack Pearl Harbor was known of in advance by the US Navy by at least 3 months, more than enough time to stage a proper defence. However, doing so would only reinforce the isolationist mentality of the time, which is what FDR DID NOT want to do. Therefore, he had all intelligence of Japanese naval movement rerouted AWAY from Pearl Harbor, so that the naval base had NO WARNING of an impending attack.

FDR knew that only a huge unprovoked attack would be enough to get the US into the war.

So, in that light, FDR is directly responsible for the deaths of over 2000 American personnel, yet he goes down in history as one of the greatest presidents in history.

In my book, GW is PREVENTING hundreds of thousand and potentially millions of deaths in his actions at the cost of less than 200 American lives.... so who is the worse of the two?

i see what you're saying, it's too bad we decided to be big brother and the silent empire. i mean, look at japan for the centuries before it got involved in the rest of the world. it was great economically, and only had short periods of fuedalism. if we trip and fall it'd be better, one, a new power could rise up and take control of what is left and build on that. then we wouldn't have to cut ourselves off. we'd have a surface that is ready to biuld upon, with all options to kick.