Food Security With Aquaponics

Originally posted by iLoGiCViZiOnS
reply to post by hawkiye

 

Well your not going to be able to keep mice, rodents or birds out of the straw so I would be careful with that one. I was envisioning the lord of the rings type of village where frodo is from when you said you want to build it on the side of a hill etc........I think this is a good idea if thats all you got to work with and where your location is. If its possible I would think rock would be better, like a cliff or something. Thats what I would do but since I live in Alaska and we get heavy snow fall I would have to worry about avalanches etc so that won't work out for me. I'm going underground I think. No matter where you are at I really don't think straw is that great UNLESS you use it in an adobe type fashion IMHO.

I really recommend using a 4-6 inch pipes for growing Aquaponics though rather then grow beds. I think your gonna have to use to much material and take up more space with plant beds etc.....

The problem with pipes for growing is it is harder to keep the temperature regular in the pipes as the heat will disspate quicker then if all the water and grow medium is all together in one bed and also you use more material with pipes since you need pipe for each row of plants.. My system will work even in Alaska. Domes can handle the snow loads and The main point is to have a heat sink on the back of the house. I like the hobbit houses but you can build a conventional looking house with ferro cement too its called stucco.

If you go underground you compound your problems and now you need grow lights and have to go to great lengths to keep out moisture from the ground etc. The point of an earth ship is the back side has enough dirt build up so the temperature stays regular with just the radiant heat from the sun coming in through the front windows. Even on over cast days you might have only a couple degrees fluctuation over a week at best.

That garden mesh will keep rodents and bugs out of straw just fine. Also spraying the straw with anti-freez and borates will keep them out too. But straw is just a thought if you do not have the dirt to mound up on the back side. You'd probably have a hard time finding straw in Alaska I imagine. And with the sun not shining several months out of the year it may not be practical there. In which case you could build a masonry heater in your greenhouse to heat it in the winter.

Ok - Im pretty clear now about how I will keep my greenhouse and fish warm over winter now - I will make a couple of compost bins either side of the fish tank and underneath the plant bed. Insulate the greenhouse with bubble wrap and use my small charcoal burner for when the temperature gets really low.

I have found a cheap second hand solar pond pump that has been used in a small ornamental pond with a little water fountain ....does anyone know if this will be enough to power a 1000 litre system?

reply to post by UKWO1Phot


Thanks for the link on how to heat a greenhouse with compost over winter - im going to give it a try this year.

You say you tried aquaponics last year - was there any obvious problems or drawbacks to the system? Did you plant using the clay balls or some other medium?

I'm not really worried about the pipes and the temperature because since its going to be a Aquaponics grow house I will have to stay on top of that already.

Here in Alaska we are very aware of our tempermental weather and how it changes drastically, so I think we are one up in this regard. Also if your going to grow in a warmer climate I would think a dome covered in solar panels would be good vs a earth ship in order to capitalize on the energy.

All very good points Hawkeye though and I thank you....this is great fun!

Regarding Domes I am definetly a fan and plan on building some, but a lot of the structure will be underground. Mr Buckminster Fuller was one of my favorite Visionaries of all time and very aware of his work, and your right domes will be good here in Alaska, but I think the Eskimos might have had that one first hehe I will be making mine out of steel beams, rebar, mesh and ferro cement.

People have been doing really awesome homes with domes as well as of late making them look very progressive etc.

Like this one.....sorry I still don't know how to imbed a photo

mildesigner.com...

You definetly can get creative with them.

You bring up good points about the vents and I never really thought about it but definetly gonna have to have some to prevent mold etc. How about the mold regarding the straw you plan to use? Straw just seems to flimsly of a material to use and has so many issues with it.

There is really no way around the grow lights here in Alaska because of our brief winters, and I want veggies all year round. Right now all our veggies are about 2 weeks old, so they go bad by the next day usually. In the summer they last a couple days longer but there is a real problem here with that.

reply to post by iLoGiCViZiOnS


Yeah you have a unique situation in Alaska. Good call on using rebar and wire mesh with ferro cement. You really don;t need steel beams unless you intend to use them for upright support beams. Or they could be joists for a second floor. Wood beams will also work and sort of offset all the concrete ascetics wise.

If you are going to use grow lights look into the full spectrum ones they have come down in price and are much better for growing.

Here is a site that shows what you can do with ferro cement. Granted this is in a warm climate but you could do it anywhere. www.flyingconcrete.com...

I grew up doing concrete and masonry so I would just build an armature or shell out of rebar and wire mesh and trowel or spray on the concrete and then a final coat of fiber cement for extra strength, insulation on the outside with more wire and another coat of cement or perhaps colored stucco or plaster. By the way insulation works better if you put it on the outside of masonry walls not on the inside as most do, however it needs to be closed cell so it will not retain moisture and get mold. And if you are going underground make sure you seal up any part of the structure that is underground real good with asphalt emulsion and put in French drains all around the structure.

This is why I would go more of an earthship style even in Alaska. Only the back side and sides of the structure are surrounded by dirt and the roof is above the dirt. the dirt slopes away from the structure so the water tends to run away from the structure and not into it and with French drains catching any moisture that comes toward the structure. You could do this all the way around the house too like you might need to in Alaska. So in essence yo would have a sort of mound with a roof sticking out

Also as for the straw I am not planning on using it, but it could work if one does not have the dirt. The anti-freeze (ethylene glycol) and borate mix will keep it from molding too. A block wall for the back wall and sides then lined with treated straw bales on the outside and covered with garden mesh with a roof overhang to protect the straw from rain and snow will work just fine. the straw can breath and is not getting bombarded with rain and snow.

Yeah I love talking about this stuff.. ;-)

reply to post by hawkiye

Yeah I love talking about this stuff.. ;-)

GOOD!

I am thinking of building a raised bed garden/green house. With goats and sheep and having cows and chickens next door compost is NOT a problem. Also I found that if you burn ONLY wood in your wood stove, wood ash instead of limestone to sweeten the soil makes a really big difference.

I am in North Carolina with a temp range of 10F to 105F (it was 102 today) Normally it does not go below about 20 to 25F so high temp is the bigger problem.

My idea is to use no mortar instead stacking cement blocks three blocks high staked in place with painted rebar. (No rust per FDA/USDA) I am digging a shallow trench 1-4" for leveling and for added stability. I plan to fill the holes in the cement blocks with stone dust in most of the blocks,since it packs very well. Under the blocks/bed I will be putting "rat cloth" A galvanized 1/4" wire mesh again painted with latex for corrosion resistance. This is to keep the burrowing critters out.

My raised beds will be U shaped,with about a 3 ft apart walk way. Total width is about 10ft.

To turn my raised beds into a poor man's green house I plan to leave about 6" of rebar above the blocks in the outside walls I then will use cattle panels to form a half circle above the raised beds link and link

Given I have GOATS I plan to cover the panels with the green vinyl covered wire 2X3" mesh fence. By putting the cattle panels up on cement blocks I can increase the height and therefore the width. A cattle panel will be modified to make the back and I still have to design the door. I may use the Linked suggestion)

Any suggestions???

(The fish pond is already on the farm )

re: heating greenhouse - have you looked into Subterranean heating and cooling systems (shcs)? Run it off of one solar powered fan. www.sunnyjohn.com...

Aquaponics has a flaw. A very serious one.

The fish get sick. Then they must be treated with chems and you have now polluted the entire system. Leave sick fish in the system and you got lots bigger troubles coming.

Vertical is the way, either hydro or organic.

Those who can should be stocking up and preparing to ensure their community and those who can't will survive and also to be ready to share this with more and more to create safety nets and recovery.

Originally posted by Shadowalker
Aquaponics has a flaw. A very serious one.

The fish get sick. Then they must be treated with chems and you have now polluted the entire system. Leave sick fish in the system and you got lots bigger troubles coming.

Vertical is the way, either hydro or organic.

No you are wrong. You are thnking of aqua culture where the fish are raised witrhout vegetables to clean the water.. it is much more prone to disease because the water has to be filtered heavily and changed periodically just like your aquarium fish to keep it clean.

With aquaponics the veggies etc. keep the water crystal clean. Also you cannot treat fish with chemicals it will kill them. It is possible for fish to get sick but the treatment is to salt them just enough to kill what ever is ailing them if that does not work you replace them. You cannot use chemical in aquaponics as I said it will kill the fish it has to be organic. there are always possible problems raising any animals and fish are no exception. There are no free lunches you just have to check your water regularly and make sure you have enough grow beds to keep the water clean for the amount of fish you have literally a few minutes a day.. A lot less work then weeding and tilling etc.

Aquaponics is no more of a learning curve then conventional gardening if you want consistent yields. Except aquaponics can have much higher yield in a lot less time. Lots of people think they can just put seeds in the ground and water and instant garden until they try it and find out there is lot more to it then they thought.

reply to post by hawkiye


thanks OP, this is my current favourite subject.i simply cannot see any down-sides to a system like this.

i posted this vid in a recent thread which kinda takes the aquaponics system to its nth degree. thread also linked



thread link

in a world where water and oil is becoming scarce (or so we are told) this has got be the way of the future.

reply to post by hawkiye



I think the only fish h that can survive like that are talapia,goldfish/coy and bass. I guess that's ok
as far as emergency eating fish. Some is always better than none, but you will have fish get sick in a man made closed loop over time.

Keep us posted as it comes along and give updates on the fish health over time.

Originally posted by Shadowalker
reply to post by hawkiye

 

I think the only fish h that can survive like that are talapia,goldfish/coy and bass. I guess that's ok
as far as emergency eating fish. Some is always better than none, but you will have fish get sick in a man made closed loop over time.

Keep us posted as it comes along and give updates on the fish health over time.

The most popular fish are trout and silver perch not talapia according to backyard aquaponics.

Perch - Silver 25%
Perch - Jade 7%
Perch- Other 0%
Trout - Rainbow 23%
Trout - Other 4%
Barramundi 12%
Tilapia 5% 5%
Blue Gill 4%
Catfish 14%
Other - Black Bream etc 5%

You could virtually raise any fish if you could provide the proper environment.

You simply have not done your homework my friend. There are thousands of people using aquaponics over several years where the fish have not gotten sick. Just like raising any livestock it is a simple matter of providing the proper environment. The plants clean the water naturally and better then any artificial filtration system. Plants have done that for millions of years it is what they do. You are simply using the laws of nature which is why it works.

It is a symbiotic relationship. The fish provide nutrients to the plants and the plants provide clean water to the fish. It is a proven method not a theory.

reply to post by hawkiye

I hope I'm doing this right...in re to your post
"The anti-freeze (ethylene glycol) and borate mix will keep it from molding too. A block wall for the back wall and sides then lined with treated straw bales on the outside and covered with garden mesh with a roof overhang to protect the straw from rain and snow will work just fine. the straw can breath and is not getting bombarded with rain and snow."
I am extremely interested in this thread because I had a hard time finding out info in the past. I was however searching the internet & not ATS & did find that the largest Talapia farm is in Dilwyn VA...

My main concern with your post is using Anti-freeze. Do you know how EXTREMELY toxic that is especially to animals? A good size Labrador to take 1 LICK & if you don't SEE him do it chances are TOO late. I can see the possibility if those hay bales are securely enclosed, but exposed I don't know since the toxin is there , dried, but what if it rains?
Sorry I'm all new to this....I work with animals & never saw 1 ethylene glychol case in S California...cause it's not used....East coast last 7 yrs have seen many & maybe 1 out of 10 + survive.
Like I said this is all hew to me but just wanted to mention the toxicity. I want to build my own as well but just going to be able to get back on my feet. The whole mentioning of straw reminded me of the bale houses, great insulation...that's about all I know.

Cheers
Ektar

Originally posted by Ektar
reply to post by hawkiye

 

I hope I'm doing this right...in re to your post
"The anti-freeze (ethylene glycol) and borate mix will keep it from molding too. A block wall for the back wall and sides then lined with treated straw bales on the outside and covered with garden mesh with a roof overhang to protect the straw from rain and snow will work just fine. the straw can breath and is not getting bombarded with rain and snow."
I am extremely interested in this thread because I had a hard time finding out info in the past. I was however searching the internet & not ATS & did find that the largest Talapia farm is in Dilwyn VA...

My main concern with your post is using Anti-freeze. Do you know how EXTREMELY toxic that is especially to animals? A good size Labrador to take 1 LICK & if you don't SEE him do it chances are TOO late. I can see the possibility if those hay bales are securely enclosed, but exposed I don't know since the toxin is there , dried, but what if it rains?
Sorry I'm all new to this....I work with animals & never saw 1 ethylene glychol case in S California...cause it's not used....East coast last 7 yrs have seen many & maybe 1 out of 10 + survive.
Like I said this is all hew to me but just wanted to mention the toxicity. I want to build my own as well but just going to be able to get back on my feet. The whole mentioning of straw reminded me of the bale houses, great insulation...that's about all I know.

Cheers
Ektar

Most of the cases of animal deaths are many years and from drinking anti-freeze. It is naturally sweet to animals but now they make it bitter so animals are not attracted to it. if you are really worried about it you can use propylene glycol instead which is non toxic to animals. That is the pink antifreeze they use in motor homes etc. The borates take care of the bacteria that breaks down organic matter i can give you a recipe if you want .

The straw needs to be kept dry that is the point if the overhang to protect from rain and snow etc. If you get a lot of snow you could tarp them for the winter but then they get moisture from condensation that way. However if they are allowed to dry out in the spring and retreated they will probably be fine. You could also use foam insulation instead of straw bales they are just a cheap way to do it. Foam insulation is not cheap.

AP is the best way to go imho.

It is something I focused on the past year and there a lot of myths about the operation.

With AP, you can support any sea life you want. As long as you meet its requirements.

I currently have 11 Jade Perch in my 500L tank.
I lost 6 due to the winter cold and not having the funds to move and heat the bugger.

reply to post by hawkiye




Here's the downside to Aqua ponics.

regardless of the videos and BS you see online... plants need oxygenation at the roots or they cannot uptake nutrients.. especially in a hydroponic garden.
as long as you have the water aerated with an airpump or a water pump, you are okay, if not.... the plants will die or not thrive.
the fish can live on alot less oxygen in the water than most plants.
one power outage, and your garden is done.
better have extensive fuel for the generators.





If you are serious about indooor gardening for food, and are serious about learning the most advanced methods of hydroponic gardening especially all organic or aquaponics, as screwed up as it sounds... check out the litterature written by pot farmers.
Yep I said it.
Forget what they are growing, the basic science behind hydroponic gardening is understood on the highest level by those guys.
they make their living off of knowing this and thanks to everyone's supermarket mentality today, they are, by far, the experts.
They have been growing with hydroponics for decades at levels that blow away conventional hydroponic knowledge.

Aquaponics has been highly discussed at length, and is sound in theory, but not so great in actual practice if you have to depend on an AP garden to live.
try it with some simple veggies.

In a SHTF situation, Id look for some really fertile soil and grow a traditional garden.
Hydroponics are awesome, but without power, they are useless.

reply to post by BadNinja68


You are right but you are also wrong.

AP only has the same flaw any Hydroponics has... Power.
A good Hydroponics setup needs pumps, lights and fans et cetera.

An outdoor AP system can run off of a single 30w Pump.
The rest is gravity fed and is very efficient.

You should do some more research.

reply to post by BadNinja68



You seriously need to do some research here as you simply do not know what your talking about. Pot is actually not a good crop for aquaponics or hydroponics as it does not like wet feet. Fish need oxygen as much as any animal the water can be aerated by gravity allowing the water to drain into the fish tank water fall style or with a paddle wheel etc. Plants can get oxygen through thier foliage also. A complete Aquaponics system can be run on a single pump etc. Seriously dude do some research this is a proven system...

It really warms my heart to see technology used in this way.

To hear some of the Eco-Hippies speak, you can't use technology for anything but the total and systematic destruction of the planet.....

And yet here we are, using practical applications of knowledge to supplant our Agribisuiness food model systems.

Ya, I can totally see some aquaponics springing up all over the place, and becoming the dominant food production method.....

No GM, no Patented Chemicals..... Nada.... just tiny little self sustaining ecosystems, providing all the food we could ever need.