Anyone Else Here Experience "Incel"?

You may not have heard of 'Incel'. It is explained below, but in brief, incel is just a shortened term for 'Involuntary Celibacy', a condition or state of being where people seek out, or otherwise long for, sexual relations (and intimacy) yet cannot get it for whatever reason.

Just some quick stats to start of this thread:

• 40 years old
  
• Male
  
• 5'11, 220 lbs
  
• Look after myself with regular heavy weight training and good diet
  
• Observe that I am not 'unattractive' to the opposite sex
  
• One relationship in my life (8 years married now divorced)
  
• Have 'nice guy' syndrome
  
• Low self-esteem, low self-confidence
  
• Low sense of entitlement where relationships, particularly intimate relationships, are concerned
  
• Have some depression and passive-aggression
  
• Have trouble trusting, opening up to people, some social shyness
  
• Work full time in public service
  
• Have a mortgage
  
• Own a reasonably good car
  
• Uni / college education, degree in Exercise Science and Post Grad Dip Ed (teaching)
  
• Consider myself to be responsible, nurturing, polite and friendly, and actually have a good sense of humor
  
• Have some shyness, particularly with women, and very much with women I like / attracted to
  
• Have realistic expectations about the women I would seek for dating
  
• Don't put in much of an effort with seeking dates as I feel it can come naturally (ie: 'Love will find you when you are not looking for it') and I have tried online dating, both paid and free dating sites
  

Probably not an exhaustive list but these are the things I can think of. I am being honest with the list to the best of my understanding about myself. I can never get a date. I never had a date or relationship until I was 26 years old, then met and married my now ex wife. Separated five years ago and now divorced. Have not had a single date in all that time. So only ever one intimate relationship.

To say I am confused would be an understatement. Sure there are things in my list that indicate why I am not successful with women, but to have only ever had one relationship and no dating experience besides that, has me perplexed and disappointed.

I have found an interesting article on Wikipedia about what is known as "involuntary celibacy' or 'Incel' for short. This is probably the best explanation of my status and condition I have ever come across. I am going to post parts of the article below, where I feel it has relevance to me.

My question is, does anyone else experience this? Or have experienced this? If so, has your situation changed?

I know a lot of people may have experienced a lack of dating and intimate relations when they're young but often grow out of it, as they grow and mature out of shyness and awkwardness and so on. The last five years has clearly shown me that I have not grown out of it at all, and wonder at my age if I ever will. I also mention that I am not talking merely about sex here, but romantic intimacy of any kind, which I understand is a naturally occurring human experience that most people encounter throughout their lives, the absence or which is not natural, at least for long periods of time on an involuntary basis.

I hope by sharing this that others may share their experiences, or otherwise gain some understanding and perspective on why they experience this. Even though I cite generous amounts of the article, feel free to read it in its entirety, very interesting.

Anyway here are some excerpts from the article on Wikipedia on Involuntary Celibacy.

Involuntary celibacy is the absence in human sexuality of intimate relationships or sexual intercourse for reasons other than voluntary celibacy, asexuality, antisexualism, or sexual abstinence. The term (which is sometimes shortened to incel) describes those who, despite being open to sexual intimacy and potential romance with someone and also making active, repeated efforts towards such an end, cannot cause any such end(s) to occur with any significant degree of regularity—or even at all.

As a concept, involuntary celibacy distinguishes itself from other various celibacy types by two major overall characteristics: First, it is a pattern-like, semi-perpetual condition that cannot seem to improve despite concentrated effort of the affected individual towards improving sex appeal and social skills to try to attract sexual partners. Second, involuntarily celibate individuals are at a complete or near-complete lack for intimate physical connection for very long spans of time—years and even sometimes decades, not merely weeks or months—and are also at a complete or near-complete lack of opportunities for sexual advancement in the first place, thereby making betterment of their own sexuality through accumulation of "sexual experience" impossible.

What makes involuntary celibacy an especially difficult condition for its sufferers to deal with is the fact that most of the time the circumstance cannot be explained through external personal factors—most incels, based on inquests by researchers into the population, are not especially physically unattractive, and most resemble in an interpersonal sense their peers who are not involuntarily celibate.[1] Although a few of the involuntarily celibate population may have discernible personality disorders that preclude current and future sexual opportunities, the small amount of research done on this subject indicates that the incel population are on the whole socially normal, healthy individuals whose frustration is merely a product of their lack of sex, and not vice versa.[1] This makes an individual's involuntarily celibate situation extremely difficult to resolve through the standard psychological methods of pinpointing and "fixing" internal and external life circumstances.

Involuntarily celibate people may suffer from unusually intense loneliness, frustration, and depression that often arises as a result of this condition lasting for the lengths of time it typically tends towards. Also, in most Westernized societies there is the additional social pressure for people in 20s or 30s age ranges to have experienced sexual interaction in some form; thus, if the person has no such experience while all of his or her peers do, serious psychological consequences can result.[1]

Rather than being an "active denial" of sexual situations, such as a circumstance where the person is considered "ugly" and thus avoided by potential partners, involuntary celibacy is a "passive denial" wherein opportunities for sex quite simply fail to emerge, and any attempts on the part of the incel person to instigate one is fruitless as well.

The comparatively personable nature of incels, however, leads only to being rejected, ignored, or spoken to in a merely friendly tone. Perhaps just as importantly, it also seems that incels are not approached by others for romantic and/or sexual reasons even in situations where they are putting themselves explicitly in social circumstances meant to attract partners, such as large-scale activities. It is said to be this conundrum—both the "cannot successfully approach" and the "never approached" ends of the problem—that causes incels their pain.

Limitations and disappointment, the indefinite postponement of sexual and romantic gratification, delay even of dating (much less marriage), and in particular the total lack of sexual experiences at key transition points during adolescence and young adulthood (things like one's first kiss, making out, petting, "first base" etc.)—all the types of lacks that seem to be the psychological cornerstones of the involuntarily celibate condition...

But this does not tell the complete story of involuntary celibacy, which in everyday life can in fact be actively destructive to a person's emotional and interpersonal well-being, rather than just a periodic nuisance or inconvenience, as is usually the case with relatively short-term "dry spells".

Consequences of this type are usually due to a "backlog" of sexual arousal that is psychologically analogous to the "backlog" of anger and/or frustration that many people with clinical depression and similar issues often feel towards themselves and others, wherein frustrations in a specific circumstance that would be seen as insignificant by a non-depressed person are interpreted as monumentally important by the affected individual. Simultaneously, internal consequences that can have external manifestations in an incel person usually follow the standard sexual frustration pattern of being or becoming tense, moody, overly-easily sexually aroused, irritable, and belligerent, and to have trouble sleeping.

There is some controversy, both academic and amongst involuntary celibates themselves, concerning the duration of the celibacy needed to qualify for the label of involuntary celibacy. Someone who is "single" and without sex for several relatively short stretches at a time is usually not looked upon as being involuntarily celibate. Researchers Donnelly and Burgess (see below) used a floor figure of six months of involuntary celibacy in their study design, but others apply the term only to those who have never been involved in a sexual and/or romantic relationship even once, while other opinions extend the definition to include those who get sexual opportunities extremely rarely (such as once or twice within a five-year bloc, or once or twice within a decade).

The article outlines a list of Possible Contributing Factors that may or may not apply to your situation. from what I can see, at least half of those don't apply, though factors around some of the personality, mental and emotional factors seem to have relevance to me.

• Cognitive biases and/or negative explanatory styles such as learned helplessness or fundamental attribution error.
  
• Self-sabotaging passive-aggressive patterns: involuntary celibates usually counter that any passive-aggressiveness in them is the result of involuntary celibacy rather than the cause.
  
• Self esteem issues affecting one's feeling of normal entitlement; again, most involuntary celibates argue that their self-esteem and self-confidence are just fine.
  
• Codependency issues that undermine one's ability to be sexually assertive; involuntary celibates argue that their sexual assertiveness is just fine—in direct and stark contrast to those with love-shyness.
  
• The presence of proven psychological disabilities such as social phobias, social anxiety, and similar may play a role in preventing courtship.
  

I'd say the low self-esteem/self-confidence is the biggest thing that's keeping you from success. That and desperation that might be coming through. Women sense that from a week away and it's like kryptonite.

Adopt an "yeah, whatever" attitude toward dating and maybe women in general, and you'll become more interesting to them. Not become a jerk, but stop chasing it and looking for something to happen. Women are attracted to the unattainable.

Good luck, man.

reply to post by surrealist

Have 'nice guy' syndrome
Low self-esteem, low self-confidence

That's the problem right there. I used to be a nice guy, and have low self-esteem and self-confidence. One day I don't know what happened, but I just "snapped out of it" and my self-esteem and self-confidence were at all time highs. I guess I figured life's too short to go around feeling sorry for yourself and worrying what other people think of you. Just started standing up straighter, talking louder and with more confidence, and looking people in the eye.

Getting rid of "nice guy" syndrome is quite simple, and only requires one thing; start being an asshole. When I say asshole, I don't mean tripping old ladies and spitting on dogs. I mean sticking up for yourself and not being walked on. Confront the people that treat you like garbage, and let them know that # wont be tolerated.

Ever notice how the hottest chicks are with total d-bags, yet the nice guy is single? Women likebeing treated like complete garbage. It is a fact.

Maybe I'm rambling. In all honesty I didn't read the whole post. I'm tired.

reply to post by surrealist


IMHO there are more married American males that suffer from the heartbreak of Incel than will want to admit it. The old Pennsylvania Dutch saying, "kissin don't last, cookin do" is true for many married couples.

Humans are at their best by nature in their younger days. Healthy, good looking, full of the chemicals one supposedly has that help attract a mate. Ready and willing. People fall in love, their brain chemistry goes haywire for a time, and many come out of the fog Married With Children. It's the nature of the way things works.

I have heard the same sad tale from so many other married guys. Those heated thighs freeze over pretty fast. Especially when children come into the picture. People have to work, they have chores & errands, and children suck the lifeblood right out of you. A night romping in the sack may sound fun but those parents may be equally thrilled with just getting a good nights sleep.

As for single guys, good luck to you as you get older. Most fellows don't take the best care of themselves. How many desirable women are on the fast track to land a balding, overweight man? The pickings get thinner with age. And those of both sexes learn painful lessons from marriage #1 and / or #2, so the old 'once bitten twice shy' comes into play.

There are a lot of factors working against both sexes that can quickly add up to Incel, especially in America where so many people are so very screwed up by plan. Society is not as it is by mistake. A lot of people have their heads twisted on a little crooked. I've read so much written by men and women, experiences and personality types that result in difficulty finding or attracting a mate.

The workplace is an all too common breeding ground for adultery which often ruins or dissolves marriages. American women do love to dress to kill for business hours then throw on huge comfy sweats that have the allure of sackcloth for their significant other to see every evening. A good waste of make-up and high heels if you ask me.

I've got my own tale of woe but some things shall remain a mystery. At least I have my memories of a much mis-spent youth, back when having sex wouldn't possibly kill you. --sigh--

If I knew in my youth what took me years to learn, I would have concentrated on making money and enlisted the service of professional 'escorts' when the mood strikes. I would have saved a bundle of money, an incredible amount of time, and a large portion of my sanity. And I would be a much happier man the whole time.

Pretty soon there will be a med for this...

been single now for 10 years and have had olnly about 6 dates in that time, women just arnt interested in me so I have given up trying to find a woman to settle down with, and devoted my time to been a good father to my son and hope to god he dosnt end up like me

From a female point of view, it's your self esteem.

I've experienced these things you mention. My low self esteem caused me not to trust people, to be shy, not open up. Then things changed. My whole life changed.

I think if you can start opening up to people, you'll develop some trust and some good friendships, and your self confidence will emerge along with a good sense of humor and your depression will disappear.

Women are attracted to confident men with a good sense of humor.

Thanks for the replies and advice. Very much appreciate the input. Pretty much agree with it all, with the only exception that I am acutely aware not to appear 'desperate', in fact, showing a lot of disinterest is something that I tend toward as a safety measure so as not to exhibit any sign of desperation or creepiness or whatever else I mistakenly think showing interest is.

It's that 'nice guy' thing, appear 'friendly and respectful' rather than 'interested'. Some people who are successful with serial dating actually advise that not showing interest is wrong because women are looking for someone who is interested in them, but communicating that 'interest' in a non-creepy, straightforward mature manner. For some reason I have a lot of trouble doing this as well, because of my thinking that to do so is somehow wrong, and I think that comes from not only a fear of rejection, but a whole lot of adverse experiences in my youth that were only reinforced with further similar experiences into adulthood, that together have deeply entrenched my negative beliefs and perceptions.

Well you do have one thing going for you. You have a mortgage and a job. A lot of women would flock to you in a heartbeat if your willing to share. lol.
Okay so you want intimacy and not share your gold. Then you do have a problem. Your aggressive and depressed alot, you are 40 years old when a 40 year old woman can get laid with a 16 year old male easy. And you don't share your gold. This is all the truth. I don't lie!!!

This is very interesting to me because I think I dated somebody with Incel.

I was the first person he ever dated. He was 22 I was 20. We were together for almost 3 years until I moved away and realized I couldn't do a Long Term Relationship. After our relationship ended, he hasn't been in a relationship since.

When I asked him why he doesn't date, he said something in the nature of "Oh, you know me. I just work and play video games." So it's obvious he isn't searching for a relationship.

He is kind of shy and quiet. When I first met him he could barely even say a word to me. While we were dating he spent a lot of time by himself. When we'd go to the movies, he would even play games on his phone, or while riding the bus together he would play on his PSP instead of talking to me. This would upset me, but then I realized that was just how he was, and it wasn't that he was intentionally ignoring me. He actually loved me a great deal. He rarely got upset with me. In the three years we dated I think he was mad at me 5 times tops. But those 5 times he was extremely mad. So it was almost like, he's so quiet and calm, but if you did something to upset him, he could get quite loud and explosive.

I do have one question to the OP. Were you born between 6 February 1970 – 26 January 1971. If so, that would make you the year of the dog, which is what my ex was. Dogs are loyal and easy going, which was my ex to a key. If this is you too. There might be a connection between people who are born the year of the dog and incel. Or at the very least it would explain why you remind me so much of my ex

Going by your list he is

27 years old
Male
5'11, 180 lbs
He has recently started a good diet with good results
He is definitely not unattractive
He has had one relationship in my life (lasting almost 3 years)
He's very nice and caring.
I don't know if he has low self-esteem. I never noticed any, but it's possible. He never told me though.
not sure about low sense of entitlement either. he definitely never asked anything from me from the relationship though.
I don't know if he has depression, but he might have been passive-aggressive at times.
Definitely shy. He met in class, and he never volunteered or spoke up. He also talks really quietly on the phone and mumbles, so I could barely understand what he is saying on the phone half the time.
Work full time in a library
Rents an apt
Own a reasonably good car
Uni / college education, degree in linguistics
definitely responsible, nurturing, polite and friendly. He has lots of good friends, and he definitely has a very very good sense of humor. (loves Simpsons and Monty Python)
was super shy with me when we first started getting to know each other. Didn't say much of anything to me. Wouldn't even make eye contact really. I wasn't much sure if he even liked me.
And definitely doesn't put much effort with seeking dates. Practically have to set him up on a date for anything to happen I think.

reply to post by Xaberz


Hi Xaberz

Thanks for your post and sharing this interesting information. Yeah I was born in September 1970. There sounds like some similarities between me and your ex boyfriend certainly, though I would not be as detached from the other person as he was, and play games while in company with someone, even my partner, at least not where it would be to the point where I would not interact where prompted and needful in any given social situation. But having said that, I could be a little like that in the marriage i was in, but would always interact and respond in conversation if talked to. Not saying your ex was quite like that, I just read that a bit in your post. If your ex is anything like me, he probably doesn't mind his own company and doesn't feel the need to be around people too much, which reminds me of something else, and that is, introversion. Some introverted people actually find company with people to be energy draining rather than stimulating, and I'm like that. It's not like this all the time, but a lot of of the time. I really appreciate your input.

I've been incel for over 10 years. I had one very intense relationship over a year when I was 24, which was the only sexual relationship I've had in my life.

I am outgoing, not shy at all, make friends very easily, have a lot of female friends, etc, but can never get to the stage where a relationship develops - I always say the wrong thing when out on a date. It also doesn't help that I'm extremely fussy and have an internet porn addiction.

I don't hide anything from people which I think may make it worse as people wonder 'what's wrong' with me if I haven't had a relationship in 10 years

reply to post by yakuzakid


Hey yakuzakid, I feel for you mate. I know the feeling.

Originally posted by Adyta
reply to post by surrealist

 

Have 'nice guy' syndrome
Low self-esteem, low self-confidence

That's the problem right there. I used to be a nice guy, and have low self-esteem and self-confidence. One day I don't know what happened, but I just "snapped out of it" and my self-esteem and self-confidence were at all time highs. I guess I figured life's too short to go around feeling sorry for yourself and worrying what other people think of you. Just started standing up straighter, talking louder and with more confidence, and looking people in the eye.

Getting rid of "nice guy" syndrome is quite simple, and only requires one thing; start being an asshole. When I say asshole, I don't mean tripping old ladies and spitting on dogs. I mean sticking up for yourself and not being walked on. Confront the people that treat you like garbage, and let them know that # wont be tolerated.

Ever notice how the hottest chicks are with total d-bags, yet the nice guy is single? Women likebeing treated like complete garbage. It is a fact.

Maybe I'm rambling. In all honesty I didn't read the whole post. I'm tired.

This, to be honest.

I'm a nice guy and I HATE it. Yes, girls enjoy the company of nice guys - but you'll just be stuck in the "friend zone" forever.

Girls like nice guys but ultimately don't respect them. Adyta is correct I'm afraid - you have to lose the "nice guy" image....everything else will follow.

Okay, I'm feeling a bit bored so I'm going to make quite a long post here.


I've been on tons of dates with women, and I can honestly say the easiest and most comfortable way to meet a woman is through an online dating site. When you approach a woman in person, it can be disastrous in many ways. They could be taken, not interested, or anxiety could turn you into a rambling buffoon. Getting shot down in person can be quite damaging to someone's self-esteem. On an online dating site, however, it is much easier. You can read their profile, and find a common interest, and work with that to break the ice. Another reason meeting someone on an online dating site is a lot easier is because you can take your time composing a message, making it rather difficult "screw it up". You can talk for a few days / weeks online before meeting them in person, making the meeting a lot more comfortble than if you had just met them in a supermarket. I met my current girlfriend on an online dating site.

If you make a profile on an online dating site, there are a few things you should know. Do not make your profile too long or revealing. If a woman can learn everything about you by reading your profile, the mystery is removed and the woman is no longer interested. A funny and somewhat cocky profile always gets the ladies laughing, and interested.

Before you go on the date, have the night somewhat planned out. Don't just "wing it", because that can lead to embarrasment (mini-golf course closed, movie started 15 minutes ago, that restaurant you "spontanousely" pulled into is the suspected source of 13 food poisioning cases).

Never ever EVER ask a woman what SHE wants to do on the date. Women like it when the man takes charge and makes the decisions (if they tell you otherwise, they are lying). If you are going out to eat, choose a restaurant that serves a wide variety of foods, and has vegetarian dishes on their menu. This way if she doesn't like something on the menu (like meat), she can choose something else (like pasta) without making it awkward. Take a woman to a pizza house, and she doesn't like pizza, it's going to make things very awkward. When ordering, pick something in the medium-high price range. If you go to the Outback and order a $20 meal, the woman will feel less guilty when she orders a $14 pasta dish. If you order a $8 appetizer, it's going to make you look like you're picking the cheapest dish so that you can cover the meal, and she will either order something just as small, or will feel guilty about being "greedy" by choosing the $14 dish.

Another proven method is to tease / make fun of them in a playful manner. For example, if a girl says she's self conscious of her big ears, look at her ears and confirm that they are big, and tease her jokingly about it. This method is rather tricky to master, because it is all about facial expression and tone. Once you master it though, it is a powerful tool in seducing a woman.

Now, the first kiss. Here is what I have learned;

1. Never attempt the first kiss in front of other people. Be sure you two are alone. If the woman has a phobia against PDA (public displays of affection), then it could end in disaster. Also, if you two are alone, then it remove the fear of being embarrased in front of your peers.
2. NEVER ask her if you can kiss her. This one is key. Women like a confident man that takes charge, asking for permission to kiss her shows that you lack both traits.
3. Never kiss her in a movie theater or on her doorstep. Both are cliched and predictable.

Women want an alpha male, it's as simple as that. Is it fair? No. I'd rather be a sweet and cuddly man, but women have proven that is not what they want. They want the kind of guy that can control every aspect of their lives. They don't want "Where do you wanna go? What do you wanna do?" they want "We are going here. We are doing this".

Lastly, and this is the most important piece of advice I can give you... If a woman isn't interested in you, then FORGET THAT $&@*%.

Well those are some of the methods I use. I have been on countless dates, and have slept with every woman I've gone on a date with, except one (and I honestly believe she was a lesbian looking for a free night out).

reply to post by Adyta


Well, according to you, I am lying, but the last time a guy didn't consult me on where I would like to go for the date and, and just told me we are doing this, felt trapped. I couldn't get away from the guy quick enough. While assertive men are attractive, controlling men are not, and cause me to panic and run. A better idea is to suggest 3 restaurants. and say "I thought we could go to restaurant 1, restaurant 2, or restaurant 3, which would you prefer?"

The rest of your advice is sound except for the teasing part. I think I know what you are getting at, but to many men could screw that up badly and end up getting slapped.

reply to post by calstorm


You must be the extremely rare exception to the rule then, because every woman I have talked to tells me they prefer the guy to make the choice. Also, on dates when asking what restaurant they prefer, I noticed them get uncomfortable and anxious about being put on the spot... and they usually responded with "Whatever you prefer". So I just stopped asking.

Also, I said the teasing part is tricky to master... but definitely do NOT tease a woman is when she says "I'm fat"... That should always be followed with a "CHECK, PLEASE!!!". Not because she's fat, but because women who think or know they're fat yet complain about it constantly, eat like pigs, and refuse exercise are the WORST kind of women.

I have not been with a female in forever, "no really forever". And what can I say about it....It's freaking great, after a time you stop caring about it, or any of it, though there is still that nature to deal with.

And as I see it, the best thing to do is to get rid of this whole urge all together, and even if I have to reach into the Aether to change the whole thing or paradigm, I will. And then things will be so much more better and easier, and funner, because the whole thing is really overrated.

But baring that if I fail, then I guess I will have to settle for trying to find a mate.

I don't know about this whole incel thing or involuntary celibacy as you say, I am more along the lines of voluntary celibacy. Though I really have very little to nothing in common with any female types, which does make it hard to even try or bother, since its hard to keep interested in them, especially the really manipulative ones they just make my skin crawl being around them.

But really op getting females is not all that hard, if you really tried, basically do all the things that they say they are not attracted to, like d-bags and get all the things they say there not about like money and such. Really there whole mentality is a kind of reverse psychology type of thing. So basically pretty much all they say and do is a kind of controlling involuntary psychology.

And that would be all you need really since most females are not all that brave, or sure of themselves, other then when they are sure they can control the dude, or he is loaded. And really that is why they all yack about the whole confidence thing, because there not brave enoph to actually do it themselfs so they wait around for somebody to initiate the dance and take over, but only as long as they are sure they can control him when the dance or game starts that is.

So basically just act like you inherated a million bucks and have a big... you know what.

And then the chicks will be all over you, and when one chick is all over you then others will become intersted, because that is there nature and being, especially the ones who say they would never.

Here check this thread out, the dude who started it knew what he was talking about, if you read between the lines that is. www.abovetopsecret.com....

Oh and one more thing...I don't know how to explain it without it taking pages, but i'll do this. There's a part in a movie, "pathfinder" were they talk about such a thing. So i'll just quote the part.

Starfire: There are two wolves fighting in each man's heart. One is Love, the other is Hate.
Ghost: Which one wins?
Starfire: The one you feed the most.

So be careful what you feed.

reply to post by surrealist


Sounds like you just need to get laid, (which would get your confidence with women up).

My suggestion would be to use adult sites such as Adult Friend Finder or Plenty of Fish (they are the best I hear, don't know myself, as I'm happily married since 2004, but these two sites keep popping up when it's mentioned).

Some no strings attached sex, and you'd probably be good to go.

(in case you haven't guessed, I'm pretty blunt about relationship advice. As with all advice, take it or leave it).

reply to post by surrealist


haha, thats me in a nut shell
i feel like i experience this incel thing.
kinda sucks yo,