Israel vs. Palestine

Ever hear the concept of we become what we hate.

I have no clue whats its like to loose a love one because of the evil of others. I have no concept of the emptiness and anger it must fill ones soul with. So I can't judge others who have turned to hate because of the evil of others, but Sh*t there isn�t enough love in the world.

What do you mean by "above all of these the blue eye" I have Jewish friends with blues eyes.




[edit on C:Tueocu08e8 by Opus]

Hmmm...
Can anyone really tell me why you think that the Palestinians are right and Israel is wrong?

Because the only claims I've seen look something like "Israel kills innocent Palestinian women and children and they want the Palestinians dead"...

Well, thats a wierd thing to say, especially since ALL of the historical facts point toward the fact that actually the Palestinians are the ones who believe in murder as a solution to their problems (many of them actually think that suiciding in order to kill Jews is a holy and noble thing to do), and they are the ones who want to completely destroy their neighbours.

Because of the wall, and because of military actions, the number of terror attacks has dropped by 75%. And for some reason after that you don't see Israeli helicopters shooting at terrorists. if the jews want to destroy all the palestinians - I wonder why aren't they doing so.

Israel bought its lands from the arabs who lived in the area of Israel, and from the British governemnt, who owned the area of Israel during the early 1900s.
The arabs started murdering Jews since the 1920s, for no real reason. British restrictions on the jews were supposed to solve the problem, but for some reason the arabs continued to murder Jews. The UN partition plan was made in order to create a palestinian country, and a Jewish country. The Jews agreed, the arabs chose to destroy them. Yep, the Jews are killing palestinians for fun, right :/

If Israel is so evil and the Palestinians are just poor people who fight because they don't have food - why do they teach their children in schools that Jews=EVIL, killing jews=GOOD (and even holy) (while Israeli children are taught that they should strive to achieve peace). Why are they showing them maps of Palestine with no Israel on them? Why a mother hopes that her son will suicide and murder jews instead of having a good, long and happy life? they think that killing a family and shooting at Israeli pregnant women from zero range is what going to get them the food they want? And why don't they have enough food/water in the first place? Surely not because of Israeli restrictions that were made because of countless terror attacks on Israeli cevilians, surely not because of that. Its probably because Israel just loves seeing dead and suffering Palestinians
:-/

While Israel agreed to the construction of a palestinian state - the Palestinians don't recognize any option other than the destruction of Israel.
And unlike those claims according to which Israel is interested only in genocide of the Palestinians - my claims were proven by history and facts, and not by the minds of people who know nothing about whats really going on.

Originally posted by Transc3ndent
Hmmm...
Can anyone really tell me why you think that the Palestinians are right and Israel is wrong?

I'll let David Ben Gurion answer that:

"Were I an Arab, and Arab with nationalist political consciousness . . . I would rise up against an immigration liable in the future to hand the country and all of its [Palestinian] Arab inhabitants over to Jewish rule. What [Palestinian] Arab cannot do his math and understand what [Jewish] immigration at the rate of 60,000 a year means a Jewish state in all of Palestine."

"When we say that the Arabs are the aggressors and we defend ourselves ---- that is only half the truth. As regards our security and life we defend ourselves. . . . But the fighting is only one aspect of the conflict, which is in its essence a political one. And politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves."
link

Israel bought its lands from the arabs who lived in the area of Israel, and from the British governemnt, who owned the area of Israel during the early 1900s.

read the first page of this thred.
They only owned about 7% of Palestine.

The arabs started murdering Jews since the 1920s, for no real reason.

It was not for no real reason.
It was because the Palestinians were rebelling against the plan to create a Jewish home in Palestine and they wanted Arab independence.

UN: The Palestine Problem 1917-1988:
The basic policy was elaborated in 1922 (in the "Churchill Memorandum") and a pattern developed, by which an outburst of violent Palestinian resistance would be followed by an official inquiry Commission which would recommend modifications, but pressure from the Zionist Organization would veer official policy back to its main direction. This was the prevalent pattern in the 1920s but, as the Palestinian resistance strengthened, British policy was obliged to take into consideration the fact that the Palestinian people would not acquiesce in the alienation of their rights. By the end of the 1930s, Palestine became the scene of full-scale violence as the Palestinians rebelled for independence, the Zionists retaliated to hold the ground they had gained, and the British Government strove to control a situation, created by the Mandate, which was fast sliding into war.

Why are they showing them maps of Palestine with no Israel on them?

Do the maps given to Israeli schoolchildren have Palestine on them?

While Israel agreed to the construction of a palestinian state - the Palestinians don't recognize any option other than the destruction of Israel.

It was not the construction of a Palestinian state.
It was the creation of a Jewish state within Palestine.
Of course the Jewish inhabitants didn't complain, they only had half of the population of the Arabs but were awarded 55% of the land of Palestine.

There are no such thing as 'Palestinians'.
They are transient Arab workers who are
squatting on Israel's sovereign land.

There are dozens of Muslim homelands.
There is one Jewish homeland. The
'Palestinians' should go home to Syria,
Egypt, and Jordan where they belong.

Problem is - Those countries don't want
them backbecause they are troublemakers
and murderers. So they push them off on
Israel. And anti-semetic Europe backs
them doing so.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
There are no such thing as 'Palestinians'.
They are transient Arab workers who are
squatting on Israel's sovereign land.

There are dozens of Muslim homelands.
There is one Jewish homeland. The
'Palestinians' should go home to Syria,
Egypt, and Jordan where they belong.

You are so wrong Flyers Fan.
There are Palestinians, the Jews met them there when they immigrated to Palestine. The Palestinians are not the ones squatting on land that does not belong to them.

While some Jews have always lived in that region, they have been a minority with the last few centuries at least. There were only a little more than 50,000 Jews in Palestine at the beginning of the 1900s vs more than half a million Arabs.

As far as Palestinians 'going home', Palestine/Israel is their home.

Palestine was never a country, it was the name of a region such as the Sinai Peninsula. The old Semitic trbies were mainly nomadic, except for the Babylonians. The Hebrews who are now the Jews, drove the Caanites out of the Palestine region and took conrol over it. The Hebrews were the only ones who had their land become a country by the UN.

After the Hebrews were driven out of their land, the Arabs (non-Semities) took control of it. Then the Jews came back and fought for their old lands. The Arabs were not there for a while, it was mainly the Caanites and Hebrews.

Originally posted by JediMaster
After the Hebrews were driven out of their land, the Arabs (non-Semities) took control of it. Then the Jews came back and fought for their old lands. The Arabs were not there for a while, it was mainly the Caanites and Hebrews.

How many centuries are you going back?

I would say that happend hundreds of years ago, but that information is to prove the point that the Jews were their first, or Semtic tribes if you will and therefore have more of a right to the land than the Arabs.

In modern times the Jews came back and formed Isreal in 1945 or '46. People were there but, the land was officialy given to them by the UN and Great Britain.

I'll let David Ben Gurion answer that:

"Were I an Arab, and Arab with nationalist political consciousness . . . I would rise up against an immigration liable in the future to hand the country and all of its [Palestinian] Arab inhabitants over to Jewish rule. What [Palestinian] Arab cannot do his math and understand what [Jewish] immigration at the rate of 60,000 a year means a Jewish state in all of Palestine."

"When we say that the Arabs are the aggressors and we defend ourselves ---- that is only half the truth. As regards our security and life we defend ourselves. . . . But the fighting is only one aspect of the conflict, which is in its essence a political one. And politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves."
link

Read my whole reply to get a reply for this.

They only owned about 7% of Palestine.

Hmmm... and? In 1937 there was a proposal to create a jewish state on 20% of Palestine. The Jews agreed, the arabs didn't, so nothing happen.
In 1947 the UN proposed a plan to divide palestine and create a palestinian state and a jewish state, and the palestinians would get most of the good lands. Again, the Jews agreed, and the Arabs didn't. Only this time they also chose to destroy us. But their plan didn't work, and only out of self defence we occupied most of the terrotories of Palestine. They created this situation only by their will to kill and murder, today they could have had 70-80% of the territory, but all they wanted is to kill the Jews in the area and get 100% of the territory, and as a result of their violance murderous acts - they ended up with nothing.

It was not for no real reason.
It was because the Palestinians were rebelling against the plan to create a Jewish home in Palestine and they wanted Arab independence.

Actually according to the arabs it was because the Jews took their jobs and land. As you said - we bought only 7% of palestine, so those claims are a bit weird. But even if they are true - there were about 3 (or 4) british documents which restricted the Jews in the area. Those were restrictions on jewish immigration and on purchase of land, and each document was much more restrictive than the previous. But for some reason - even after those restrictions (which were supposed to solve the problem if the arabs were telling the truth) they still murdered Jews. Interesting huh?

And why were they rebelling against the creation of a Jewish state? The territory belonged to the british government anyway, not to them. And the british government promised the Jews to create a state for them in Israel. This is completely legal,and even if they didn't like it - murdering people is simply wrong.

Do the maps given to Israeli schoolchildren have Palestine on them?

Well, if you didn't know it yet, Israel =state, recognized by most of the the world, and was created after an international voting process. Palestine = nothing, its a name of aterritory, and its far from being a state.

And as you might know - maps show countries, not names of territories.
making maps of "Palenstine" where it should be writen "Israel" is like making maps of america and writing "Al-Qaeda" instead of USA.

It was not the construction of a Palestinian state.
It was the creation of a Jewish state within Palestine.

again, Palestine? What is Palestine? if you want to use quotes of Israeli prime-ministers, let me quote Golda Meir:

""There was no such thing as Palestinians ... It was not as though there was a Palestinian people in Palestine considering itself as a Palestinian people and we came and threw them out and took their country away from them. They did not exist."
"

The arabs in the area never wanted a state, and they never had a state.
The plan was to make a tiny Jewish state in a terrotory which called historically "Palestine". The Jews have a right to form a state of their own, especially since living all over the world didn't work, don't you think?

Why should this bother the few arabs who live in this area and don't even control the land? they have a dozen of countries where they can go, muslim countries. We don't have such place.

Would you start killing people who came to your state to create a peacefull state on 1/5 of your territory after they suffered for hunders of years in europe and all over the world? Not to mention that the arabs in this area -unlike you - didn't even have a state!


Another thing which I so adore in your reply is that you simply chose to ignore all the other things which I mentioned, Thing that should not be ignored, and things which directly contradict the claims that the Palestinians are poor and peacefull people who fight Israel simply beacuse israel treats them bad.

Sadly, ignoring those facts won't make them go away.

[edit on 10/8/04 by Transc3ndent]

Originally posted by EternalLeaderof Truth

Hmmm.
I can't decide what the message? is here.

Could you expound on this a little?

A couple of articles on the subject

"I have always supported a Jewish ethnic homeland in Palestine. That is different from a Jewish state. There's a strong case to be made for an ethnic homeland, but as to whether there should be a Jewish state, or a Muslim state, or a Christian state, or a white state--that's entirely another matter."

- Noam Chomsky

Anti-Semitism, Zionism, and the Palestinians
Noam Chomsky
www.variant.ndtilda.co.uk...


ZIONISTS

DO NOT REPRESENT JEWS

From the inception of the Zionist State and particularly in recent times, the impression has been created in the World that there is some connection between the State, which falsely calls itself Israel, and the Jewish people as a whole.
taken from the following page, read the rest
www.jewsagainstzionism.com...


Of course justifying a state of israel because god had promised the land to the jews also contradicts alot of the other things god had supossedly said.

remember the ten commandments. try the 6th one
"Thou shalt not kill."
how about the 9th
"Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor."

of course this is assuming such a god exist
and if he(?) does is he the insecure, vengeful god of the first testament?
or the peaceful loveing and forgiving god jesus spoke of?

would either really support the brutal muder and torture of the palestinians for something so materialistic and superficial?

This is a brief history of the are,

In the bronze age (3000 BC) At the south of the temple mount was a town called Urusalim. The population was mix Jebusites.

By (1000BC) Urusalim was captured by David, founder of the joint kingdom of Israel and Judah, and became the Jewish kingdom's capital.

David rename the city Jerusalem.

David's son, Solomon rule after, Nebuchadrezzar II of Babylon forced the Jews into exile, Cyrus of Persia conquered Babylon and allowed the Jews to return to Jerusalem. Over the next five centuries Jerusalem was captured by Alexander the Great, controlled by Hellenistic, Egyptian, and Seleucid empires as well as experiencing occasional periods of Jewish freedom.

In 64 BC, the Roman general Pompey captured Jerusalem, ushering in several centuries of Roman rule.

37-4 BC It was rule by Herod the great

135 AD was rule by Roman Emperor Hadrian

(306-337) Emperor Constantinos mother Empress Helena after turning into christianity with the help of her son resurrested the Jesus myth with the so called findings of the holy cross wood and name different parts of the city as holy sites. Now the question is how did she manage to dig out the ruins of a city that was destroyed and build upon by generations of conquerors it keeps historians skeptical but the holy sites found in Jerusalem now is the works of Empress Helenas holy pursue of proving the existance of Jesus in the pursue of her own faith. (This part is a personal though the rest is historical facts)

Yes the Jewish people has been in the land of the palestines for a long time they were what we call the natives of the land but of mix heritage by so many conqueros through the centuries.

"brutal muder and torture of the palestinians"? You have no idea what you are talking about... please read my previous replies (or at least some history books)....

Noam Chomsky's mistake is that he fails to undersand what Judaism is. Its not only religion, its an ethnic group, a race (not from a biological point of view of course) with culture, language and history. Its not just a religion like Islam or Christianity.

If people with common history, religion and language, who suffered hunderds of years without having a state of their own do not deserve a state - then I don't know who does.

Originally posted by Transc3ndent
"brutal muder and torture of the palestinians"? You have no idea what you are talking about... please read my previous replies (or at least some history books)....

tell me what history books you're reading
i hope that you realise that there are people writing history with an agenda
and something to gain
i am actually someone who believed that israel was in the right untill i learned more on whats actually going on.
and i've tried to learn about the issues from various sources so..... you know

you also said-

"Noam Chomsky's mistake is that he fails to undersand what Judaism is. Its not only religion, its an ethnic group, a race (not from a biological point of view of course) with culture, language and history. Its not just a religion like Islam or Christianity"

I don't believe Chomsky has made that mistake as i thought he might have made that mistake too and went back and read what he was saying. you do realise that he is a jew.

you also said
"If people with common history, religion and language, who suffered hunderds of years without having a state of their own do not deserve a state - then I don't know who does."

i think you missed the point
i was refering to the religious justifications
also being "a choosen people" why would you need that.
shouldn't you be so spiritualy enlightened enough to realise that where you live is irrelevant and that how you live is of the most importance?
the other point is wasted on you as you don't seem to believe that palestinians have been murdered and tortured.

did you read the actual articles?
did you read the second link?

sorry, let me try that again
i'm new here

Originally posted by Transc3ndent
"brutal muder and torture of the palestinians"? You have no idea what you are talking about... please read my previous replies (or at least some history books)....

tell me what history books you're reading
i hope that you realise that there are people writing history with an agenda
and something to gain
i am actually someone who believed that israel was in the right untill i learned more on whats actually going on.
and i've tried to learn about the issues from various sources so..... you know

you also said-

"Noam Chomsky's mistake is that he fails to undersand what Judaism is. Its not only religion, its an ethnic group, a race (not from a biological point of view of course) with culture, language and history. Its not just a religion like Islam or Christianity"

I don't believe Chomsky has made that mistake as i thought he might have made that mistake too and went back and read what he was saying. you do realise that he is a jew.

you also said
"If people with common history, religion and language, who suffered hunderds of years without having a state of their own do not deserve a state - then I don't know who does."

i think you missed the point
i was refering to the religious justifications
also being "a choosen people" why would you need that.
shouldn't you be so spiritualy enlightened enough to realise that where you live is irrelevant and that how you live is of the most importance?
the other point is wasted on you as you don't seem to believe that palestinians have been murdered and tortured.

did you read the actual articles?
did you read the second link?

Sorry to say but Judaism is has a mix of social, religious and regional organization and should not be used as to point out a specific religion or people becasue it is not.

Do not relay on the views of just one personal oppinion as true.

The problem with the history of the palestine is diferent from the bible, something that most people does not realize. Most of the conflict in the palestine land comes from modern migration of national Arabs into the land in the 19th century and this started the conflicts escalation between palestines against Israel yes palestine agressio against Israel.

Very good historical review from the British control of the area to the division of the land in the middle east.


www.masada2000.org...


[edit on 11-8-2004 by marg6043]

No matter who was their first, or who bought how much land from who, or whatever deity promissed you the land, theirs no excuse for the oppression that the palestinians have been under since the occupation of the territories. They've been held in sort of a captive market, which means Isreal allows no growth or development competitive to Isreali business. Its no wonder theirs massive popular dissent and protest, and even violence coming from the palestinians. I mean a palestinian farmer is alowed to use something like as much water as the average Isreali household. But what does it matter anyway, the US and Isreal will continue to do whatever they want, and nothing will ever change

sp23,

You are right on this issue and it brings me to something another ATS member point out on another thread.

Will the lives of the Palestinians would have been different been they of Christian believe rather than muslin?

sorry, let me try that again
i'm new here

tell me what history books you're reading
i hope that you realise that there are people writing history with an agenda
and something to gain
i am actually someone who believed that israel was in the right untill i learned more on whats actually going on.
and i've tried to learn about the issues from various sources so..... you know

I wonder what sources tell you that Israel murders and turtures Palestinians, I would also be very happy if you could tell me when was the last time this happened. I know people who served in combat and special forces units in the IDF, I can tell that turture or just murder for no reason is EXTREMELY rare, and if it does happen - the soldiers who are responsible for it are put in jail and will never serve in our army again.

The palestinians, on the other hand, are glad to kill an Israeli on every oppertunity they have. But its ok, after all they are poor poeple who got invaded and murdered by the evil Jews who think they are "the chosen people", right?

WRONG.
We didn't even touch them untill they decided its time to blow up some buses full of children, or to murder some jewish families because it will probably get them closer to allah. Not to mention that they lived in low life quality long before we came - exactly as millions of arabs live in egypt/jprdan/iran/lebanon/iraq/syria.

I don't believe Chomsky has made that mistake as i thought he might have made that mistake too and went back and read what he was saying. you do realise that he is a jew.

I realise he is a jew, unfortunately I've met dozens of jews who know nothing about Judaism (and I'm not talking about people who just don't agree with my personal opinions I'm talking about people who believe in things which directrly contradict proven facts), and it seems like he is one of them.

i think you missed the point
i was refering to the religious justifications
also being "a choosen people" why would you need that.
shouldn't you be so spiritualy enlightened enough to realise that where you live is irrelevant and that how you live is of the most importance?
the other point is wasted on you as you don't seem to believe that palestinians have been murdered and tortured.

Antisemitism is a much more complex problem than you think it is, especially today, but the main point here that it IS imprtant were Jews live, because in most european countries (for example) they will meet antisemitism regardless of their actions. I know this from my personal experiance. And this was the situation even before Israel and before WW2.
The whole idea (and the ONLY idea) of Zionism is that those problem could be solved (or at least avoided) if the Jews had a state of their own.

And exactely what relegious justifications are you reffering to? Religion or not - It is proven that the jews were here long before the Arabs (but thats not even the point), and the arabs who were here didn't belong to some special ethnic group which is called "Palestinians". They never had a state, they never wanted a state, and they lived in a very primitive way of life (similar to the way they live today). The argument and the whole problem is not about "God promised us this land", no one in Israel even cares about those stuff. Only people from foreign countries seem to think that this has something to do with it. Most of the land didn't even belong to the "Palestinians"! We bought it legally from Britain, we didn't just come here and started kicking out arabs while shouting "God promised us this land!".

And what is this stuff about the "Chosen people"? Hell, most of the jews in Israel aren't even religious, they don't care that much about god, they don't even pray. No one - except people from other countries who think they know whats going on here - gives a damn about what was writen in the bible.
We wouldn't even made a state here if Britain didn't agree to help and sell lands to us (and there were even proposals to make a Jewish state in uganda and argentina before that). But instead of living in peace - the arabs chose to murder and kill. We didn't invade their lands, we didn't steal anything from them, we didn't attack them, we just wanted to live in peace in a place of our own.

did you read the actual articles?
did you read the second link?

No, reading them now.

Originally posted by sp23
No matter who was their first, or who bought how much land from who, or whatever deity promissed you the land, theirs no excuse for the oppression that the palestinians have been under since the occupation of the territories. They've been held in sort of a captive market, which means Isreal allows no growth or development competitive to Isreali business. Its no wonder theirs massive popular dissent and protest, and even violence coming from the palestinians. I mean a palestinian farmer is alowed to use something like as much water as the average Isreali household. But what does it matter anyway, the US and Isreal will continue to do whatever they want, and nothing will ever change

Hmmm... so you think we restrict them because we don't want competitive development? The arabs in the area had zero development in the last few hunderds years, while israel - which exists less that 60 years - is one of the most technologically advanced countries on earth. Most of this technology, by the way, is, and was, developed only by Israel, and not bought from the US as you might think. Sorry, buy saying that we fear competitive palestinian buisness is nothing but ignorance.

Now, the important thing is Better life = easier to execute terror attacks. They don't murder because they live in "captive markets", they live there BECAUSE they murder. Note that ALL israeli restrictions came as a reponse to terror attacks, attacks which started happening when (and partly because) the palestinians waren't restricted yet. More food, more water, more land, more money means only more weapons, more suicide bombers, more missiles, and more dead Israeli citizens, thats why they were restricted in the first place. Besides, how do you explain the fact that Military operations and restrictions only decreased terror attacks, while peace negotiations only increased them?




[edit on 11/8/04 by Transc3ndent]

Both were created around 1947-1948 as part of a partition.

Remember, many thousands to millions of Jews from Arab lands came to Israel after being kicked out of *their* homes.

In 1948 there were 200,000 Jews in Baghdad. Now, probably, 10, all 80 years old+ and too frail to leave. Some had been there for, literally, thousands of years, since the Babylonian captivity in say 500BC.

There were even more in Persia, modern Iran. Now, they're in Israel and Los Angeles.

Again, thousands more in Algeria, Libya, Yemen, etc etc.

What would people think if there were regular attacks by Hindu nationalists threatening to wipe Pakistan off the face of the earth, for the "right of return" (for Hindus only to their ancestral homes in Pakistan), bladitty blah blah blah?

The name "Pakistan" is purely a 20th century invention. "Israel" as a people and as a nation (the idea of "states" is from the modern era) is thousands of years old. And it wasn't in Zimbabwe.

And what about other mid-east states created in the 20th century? Uh, let's see, Iraq? Jordan? Kuwait? Saudi Arabia?

The British mandate in Palestine included territory of present day Jordan, Israel, and whatever is being incompetently administered by the Palestinean "lack-of" Authority.

Brits drew a line around the big part and said: "No Jews Allowed Here", and called that Transjordan. Jordan was the name of the river, never a state or nation or people or kingdom.

In the 1930's, both Jews and Arabs living in that area were "Palestinians".

And Yasser Arafat? What's up with him? He's an Egyptian, born in Cairo.