Abortion and Anarchy

I recently hired a new driver, a nice young lady who fits in nicely with my groove of my store. While she was going over the initial "corporate bru ha ha" that is mandated for all new hires, I walked into my office to find one of the non-drivers gossiping with her. What I heard when entering was "and "BLANK" is an anarchist". Yes, everyone knows I am, from every one of my employees to the head of inhuman resources. The usual "chaos" comment came up and I said "anarchy is not chaos".

For some reason I don't remember abortion was mentioned, at which point I said that I didn't support it. That it was depriving a life of "it's"(those damn quotes at it again) natural rights, at which point the new hire said "until birth, its nothing more then a parasite". Ok, i suppose biological that is correct.

Now, two weeks later, near closing time she asked me if I had a picture of my daughter, me, being the smart a$$ that I am said "I would never carry a picture of her, she looks like her mother". I then showed her a pic of her on my phone. As she did the usual "oh, she's so cute"(she looks nothing like her mother), I said, "Now i understand that a fetus logically is a parasite, but I could never believe it". At which she said that her father said the same thing about her during a heated discussion about her feelings on the matter and that she understood that point as well.

She then said "i understand your idea of life liberty and happiness, but what about when ones" natural rights "conflicts with another's", so i said, "you need to give me an example". She then brought up the idea that it would be wrong for her to bring a child into the world because she would be unable to give "it" a decent shot at being happy. I mentioned adoption and she said "I couldn't do that, I was adopted and foster care was a nightmare". I said I think we are talking about two different things, at which she left for a delivery.

When she returned i said "it seems to me you are thinking about going to term, putting the child up for adoption at which point it goes into the foster care system" and she agreed. I told her what I was referring to was finding out your pregnant, finding a reputable adoption attorney and allowing them to vet the perspective couple.

A little exchange insured about how expensive that would be with a reply of the couples pay for the attorney and medical costs, and you can be sure that at least the child has a good chance of being raised in a loving caring family.

Since we are not allowed to ask the age of an employee I would have to guess she's around 22. I could tell though it challenged her ideas.

You may ask what does this have to do with anarchy so I will tell you, those who actually understand the idea of anarchy, that of mutual respect and personal responsibility, in order to progress till one day we may be actually free of institutional slavery MUST find solutions to our social issues that holds the individuals rights to life liberty and property sacrosanct.

You may ask what does this have to do with anarchy so I will tell you, those who actually understand the idea of anarchy, that of mutual respect and personal responsibility, in order to progress till one day we may be actually free of institutional slavery MUST find solutions to our social issues that holds the individuals rights to life liberty and property sacrosanct.

This view of anarchy is very, very similar to communism, in that it requires people to be at their very, very best in order for it to succeed.

I think it's a great *idea* but the reason it will never work in real life is that real people are selfish, lazy, uninformed, and willing to be very immoral when it suits them. Without a strong negative incentive to keep them in line, chaos (and/or brutal dictatorship) ensues.

My husband doesn't go to work every day because he is serving the greater good and putting gasoline in your car. He goes because they pay him and he wants money. Period.

Pregnancy is a violent process that has the potential to kill and injure women (even in countries with the best medical care).
It has to be her choice if she goes through with it or not.
Adopting the child out once it's born, or the intent to do so doesn't lessen the risks and the harm it causes a woman's body.
Who are you to push your opinion about what others do with their own bodies?

Originally posted by Schkeptick
This view of anarchy is very, very similar to communism, in that it requires people to be at their very, very best in order for it to succeed.

No, it doesnt.

Be at your best if you want. Be at your worst if you want. There are consequences either way.

That lawyer turns out to be snatching babies and tossing them in landfills for cash? Well, sooner or later that will come to light and nobody will do business with that lawyer.

As it is now the situation remains the same except we all have to pay for some elaborate system to find out after the fact and track the guy down and put him up with room and board for X number of years that does nothing toward undoing the harm or bringing about "justice."

I think the greatest obstacle people have to accepting liberty without fear is this belief that our current system of "justice" actually does anything.

A fetus is a part of her body, so it's her property. I don't see how getting an abortion conflicts with the rights of the fetus, since the fetus has no rights. If she wanted to cut off her arm and sell it, she has the right to do that -- it's the same logic with the fetus IMO.

Originally posted by Schkeptick
I think it's a great *idea* but the reason it will never work in real life is that real people are selfish, lazy, uninformed, and willing to be very immoral when it suits them.

I think this is why ANY form of government doesn't work well for very long. And ANY form of government would work if people weren't selfish, lazy, uninformed, and willing to be very immoral when it suits them (corrupt).

Corruption (which apparently comes with the territory of gaining power) is present in all governments and anarchy might be the best way to get out from under that. I actually support anarchy. I think it could be a very peaceful and orderly system. I know I'd be willing to try it.

reply to post by Rockdisjoint


I absolutely agree. I've never had an abortion and I have 2 healthy sons but if I found myself in different circumstances, I would vigorously defend my right to make decisions about my own body and about what grows in it. I sure as hell wouldn't be asking a man unrelated to the circumstance what he thinks is best for me.

Originally posted by Schkeptick
This view of anarchy is very, very similar to communism, in that it requires people to be at their very, very best in order for it to succeed.

I think it's a great *idea* but the reason it will never work in real life is that real people are selfish, lazy, uninformed, and willing to be very immoral when it suits them. Without a strong negative incentive to keep them in line, chaos (and/or brutal dictatorship) ensues.

My husband doesn't go to work every day because he is serving the greater good and putting gasoline in your car. He goes because they pay him and he wants money. Period.

I have to disagree with you here, communism does not value property as a "negative right", As i see it, the only thing stopping anarchy from being the norm is the common person is conditioned one, to think anarchy means chaos, two, that the right to property is equal to greed.

there are many negative "incentives" in a true anarchical system. Unless you are a government employee you do actually live in anarchy most of the time.

Originally posted by Bee2010
Pregnancy is a violent process that has the potential to kill and injure women (even in countries with the best medical care).
It has to be her choice if she goes through with it or not.
Adopting the child out once it's born, or the intent to do so doesn't lessen the risks and the harm it causes a woman's body.
Who are you to push your opinion about what others do with their own bodies?

I never said it didn't have the potential for harm or death, that issue was never brought up. Do not put words in my mouth, I will not let you get away with it.
I never expressed any notion that I or anyone else had the right to stop a woman from having an abortion since i do agree, logically, that until a child can at least breath on its own accord that it is in fact a parasite, as that would be me or anyone else violating her natural rights, again, putting words in my mouth. I did not start the conversation,i merely gave her my opinion which she asked for based on my belief system.

Originally posted by Rockdisjoint
A fetus is a part of her body, so it's her property. I don't see how getting an abortion conflicts with the rights of the fetus, since the fetus has no rights. If she wanted to cut off her arm and sell it, she has the right to do that -- it's the same logic with the fetus IMO.

I do in fact agree with you on this, it is her property.

So, not sure if your married or not, but hypothetically speaking, if your wife got assaulted and raped going out one night and found out she was pregnant by that guy, would you make her carry it to term? Would keep the child knowing that it reminds you of that said night? How would you address it? Curious, would you force a 14 year old girl to carry a child to term or would you let her get an abortion so she could have a life of her own?

I think it's the womans choice to do what she wants with her body without other people butting into other peoples business. I disagree with the government getting involved in telling a woman, that she has to carry the child, for whatever reason she don't want to. It's not our business but hers.

Originally posted by Bee2010
reply to post by Rockdisjoint

 

I absolutely agree. I've never had an abortion and I have 2 healthy sons but if I found myself in different circumstances, I would vigorously defend my right to make decisions about my own body and about what grows in it. I sure as hell wouldn't be asking a man unrelated to the circumstance what he thinks is best for me.

I have no horse in this race, its was a free exchange of ideas. What she does in her life has no bearing on mine unless it interferes with her ability to do the job I hired her for. You seem to think I am the type of person that would hold a gun to her head to stop her and that is not the case, nor have I given any indication that I would even attempt to use force and violence to stop her. As it appears you didn't actually read what I wrote I will make it clear, SHE guided the conversation not I. I told her that my opinion didn't really mean anything and she said the fact that someone would ask my opinion says a lot about me. Hate on me all you want it means nothing to me, that is, unless you are giving me control over your feelings.

Originally posted by NuroSlam

Originally posted by Bee2010
Pregnancy is a violent process that has the potential to kill and injure women (even in countries with the best medical care).
It has to be her choice if she goes through with it or not.
Adopting the child out once it's born, or the intent to do so doesn't lessen the risks and the harm it causes a woman's body.
Who are you to push your opinion about what others do with their own bodies?

I never said it didn't have the potential for harm or death, that issue was never brought up. Do not put words in my mouth, I will not let you get away with it.
I never expressed any notion that I or anyone else had the right to stop a woman from having an abortion since i do agree, logically, that until a child can at least breath on its own accord that it is in fact a parasite, as that would be me or anyone else violating her natural rights, again, putting words in my mouth. I did not start the conversation,i merely gave her my opinion which she asked for based on my belief system.

You offered your friend the alternative, as you see it, to abortion. That alternative was to adopt the baby out. I was pointing out where your "alternative option to abortion" was flawed. I didn't try to put words in your mouth, I asked you a question. That question was fueled by my belief that you were trying to change your friend's mind and gently pushing your opinion on her and then on us using this thread.

reply to post by NuroSlam


Some clearly didn't read your post or else assumed you meant more than you said. When I read your post, it was clear you were sharing your opinion with this woman, without any expectation of her to go along with you. You were giving her options.

People aren't used to a system where people share their opinions without expectation of agreement. In today's America, if you share your opinion with someone, it means that you're trying to convince them of something, trying to make them wrong, or support laws that would make all people behave in a certain manner.

We're so messed up. :shk:

Originally posted by Manhater
So, not sure if your married or not, but hypothetically speaking, if your wife got assaulted and raped going out one night and found out she was pregnant by that guy, would you make her carry it to term?

seems to me your not understanding the actual idea of life and property, no, i would not force her to carry a child to term, her psychological well being is what is important to me in that circumstance. I was married for 11 years, and since I really have nothing to hide, she got pregnant by another man which led to my divorce. Since we have a child together, and that these two children are sisters I treat them equally the same, it is not their fault .

Would keep the child knowing that it reminds you of that said night? How would you address it?

while it wasn't rape, i can honestly say if my "spouse" decided she wanted to keep the child, yes. see above.

Curious, would you force a 14 year old girl to carry a child to term or would you let her get an abortion so she could have a life of her own?

Once a human reaches the age of puberty I believe that they are entitled, have the right, to decide for themselves how they want to proceed in life.

I think it's the womans choice to do what she wants with her body without other people butting into other peoples business. I disagree with the government getting involved in telling a woman, that she has to carry the child, for whatever reason she don't want to. It's not our business but hers.

Again, she asked how my idea of natural rights fit into the situation, at no time did I ever say that I thought I had the right to interfer with her choice

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by NuroSlam

 

Some clearly didn't read your post or else assumed you meant more than you said. When I read your post, it was clear you were sharing your opinion with this woman, without any expectation of her to go along with you. You were giving her options.

People aren't used to a system where people share their opinions without expectation of agreement. In today's America, if you share your opinion with someone, it means that you're trying to convince them of something, trying to make them wrong, or support laws that would make all people behave in a certain manner.

We're so messed up. :shk:

People always have an agenda. He has an opinion on abortion, why make a thread about it?

Originally posted by Bee2010
You offered your friend the alternative, as you see it, to abortion. That alternative was to adopt the baby out. I was pointing out where your "alternative option to abortion" was flawed. I didn't try to put words in your mouth, I asked you a question. That question was fueled by my belief that you were trying to change your friend's mind and gently pushing your opinion on her and then on us using this thread.

edit on 24-6-2011 by Bee2010 because: (no reason given)

I did not offer, i asked for an example and that is the one she offered. There is no flaw, as the health and welfare issue was never raised. You indeed put words in my mouth as you attempted to imply that I would force a woman to go to term and that is not the case at all nor was it expressed in the conversation. Your beliefs blind you to what the exchange was about. I'm in no way attempted to change anyone's mind but to have a dialogue about something that is a social issue, which is the purpose of this forum. I personally could care less if you want to "abort" a "fetus". you have to live with your actions not me.

Originally posted by Bee2010
People always have an agenda. He has an opinion on abortion, why make a thread about it?

Yes, I do have an agenda, and that is that everyone is entiled to life liberty and property, and that no one has the right to violate it

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by NuroSlam

 

Some clearly didn't read your post or else assumed you meant more than you said. When I read your post, it was clear you were sharing your opinion with this woman, without any expectation of her to go along with you. You were giving her options.

People aren't used to a system where people share their opinions without expectation of agreement. In today's America, if you share your opinion with someone, it means that you're trying to convince them of something, trying to make them wrong, or support laws that would make all people behave in a certain manner.

We're so messed up. :shk:

Society/Government has so well conditioned people to believe that any idea that doesn't support the status quo is wrong and evil. I write these posts in the hopes that maybe one person might open their mind to an alternative way of thinking that allows everyone to actually experience freedom in their lifetime..

Originally posted by Bee2010
People always have an agenda. He has an opinion on abortion, why make a thread about it?

If no one made threads on subjects they have opinions about, ATS wouldn't exist.

The OP does have an opinion on abortion. Most of us do.

I got that the OP's opinion was more about anarchy than abortion. I don't like abortion. I would even go so far as to say that I am against abortion. But I support choice 100%. I think that's really what the OP is indicating: That we can have opinions about things and even offer advice to those with whom we disagree, but we can still respect and honor the freedom of someone else to NOT share our opinion and to be autonomous in their lives.

I get a glimpse of real freedom at times and it thrills to me to think that it's possible that we could each be living our lives without the constant barrage of laws and interference from a government that's grown so huge as to be ineffective and impotent...

People these days think they should be able to get laws passed that force everyone to behave in the way THEY think people should behave. It's sick and twisted! We have millions of people fighting to elect someone who will force THEIR agenda... :shk: We are so far in over our heads with this government control thing that it's hard for us to imagine real freedom... At this point, I don't think most people could handle it.