To graduate or not to graduate... is there an option?

Originally posted by Jepic

Originally posted by yourmamaknows
reply to post by Forevever

 

Take the job if available. I have an advanced degree and no job. Money is for real. There are always jobs in retail and sales that require no degree. Be a used car salesman!

Work in a grocery store as a stocker. They like young workers. Sure, get a job and don't worry about it.

For self help, learn about auto repair on your own time. This is a valuable skill for your own use.

You have an advanced degree and no job? Sounds to me like you might not be looking hard enough...

I am not complaining about the no job deal. I was doing OK a Poker Stars until someone decided to remove US players. I am complaining about that. The last few days I played I was at tables with Russians, Australians, Germans. One Chinese guy. It's OK for them to play, but not someone from the US.

It's a good thing this is a PG site, because I have a more graphic description of my feelings on the matter.

Originally posted by Forevever
reply to post by Jepic

 

seriously, when was the last time you hired a plumber? (and what did it cost you...)
when was the last time you hired a marine biologist?

what do you do by the way?

I just looked it up. Ave year pay for 1st year plumber and marine biologist is nearly the same. 40,000 and 42,000 a year.

now how many people call marine biologist when they have a leak?

Originally posted by Toromos
I think there are a number of issues being conflated, primarily whether someone should just get a GED and start working, versus how this will affect future job or education prospects. You are certainly correct that many people can make a living just having a GED and be happy. There are some practical issues you may want to consider.

First, whether we like it or not, GED's are not given the same weight as a high school diploma. Getting into the military is a good example of this. Unless the situation has changed, you cannot join the military with just a GED anymore. A person needs a GED plus 15 hours of college classes. On the other hand, a person with just a high school diploma can join the military.

I'm mostly responding directly because I didn't want to ignore your post
I did take the GED, I did receive an actual diploma
and NEVER once has any employer ever asked to see any of my degrees
did they call the places to verify? or did they just take my word for it? I'll never know

I'm not sure how your son's current high school is set up, but most have some option to get some sort of trade training, such as in carpentry, mechanics, etc. My high school was a comprehensive program where these skills were taught right in the high school. True, a person with just a GED could learn these skills on the job, but a person with a diploma, plus this training, is going to be more marketable.

I tend to think I got every job I ever applied for because I marketed myself. (I have not tried to get a job in today's economy so I can't say if that still holds true) and every job I ever had started me with a training period..
Training? why? I have pieces of paper!

I guess you need to ask yourself why would a person with just a GED be a better candidate for a future employer than someone with a diploma? You'll need to ask yourself how can a GED holder outshine someone with a diploma? Let's say there are twenty applicants for a job. Let's say all have the same basic experience and aptitude, but ten have a GED and ten have a diploma. Why would the employer waste their time with the GED holders? They can immediately chuck those applications and concentrate on those who earned diplomas.

It might not seem fair, but that's how brutal the job market is now.

Again I gotta tell you this
I took my GED - I was given a DIPLOMA that doesn't say "GED" on it anywhere
I got a degree in medical terminology/transcription - and no one ever asked to see it or tested me on that knowledge, even when working in medical environments

Originally posted by camaro68ss
I just looked it up. Ave year pay for 1st year plumber and marine biologist is nearly the same. 40,000 and 42,000 a year.

now how many people call marine biologist when they have a leak?

ooooooo you're so my favorite poster in this thread!!!
♥♥♥

Originally posted by Forevever
reply to post by Jepic

 

seriously, when was the last time you hired a plumber? (and what did it cost you...)
when was the last time you hired a marine biologist?

what do you do by the way?

Oh I'd get one over here straight up! A marine biologist on the other hand... Well that's much more difficult I consider.

I'm not gonna say what I do. When people ask such questions, normal fights ensue afterwards where your work is used against you.

Originally posted by Forevever

Originally posted by camaro68ss
I just looked it up. Ave year pay for 1st year plumber and marine biologist is nearly the same. 40,000 and 42,000 a year.

now how many people call marine biologist when they have a leak?

ooooooo you're so my favorite poster in this thread!!!
♥♥♥

Im sorry i just hate it when people dog on peoples jobs. There is nothing wrong with plumbers, There is nothing wrong with marine biologist for the mater ether. having a degree does not make you better! There are countless examples of people becoming "rich" without school

Originally posted by camaro68ss

Originally posted by Forevever
reply to post by Jepic

 

seriously, when was the last time you hired a plumber? (and what did it cost you...)
when was the last time you hired a marine biologist?

what do you do by the way?

I just looked it up. Ave year pay for 1st year plumber and marine biologist is nearly the same. 40,000 and 42,000 a year.

now how many people call marine biologist when they have a leak?

Care to show me the proof? A link?

Originally posted by Jepic
I'm not gonna say what I do. When people ask such questions, normal fights ensue afterwards where your work is used against you.

You're right and I shouldn't have asked

I'm not ashamed to say I've had many jobs - none of which lasted for more than a couple of years - I get bored and restless and.... meh - 2 things make me quit any job

1. Stress - I deny stress, I refuse to compromise with it
2. People - Usually what happens is that I get too close to my coworkers - I know entirely way too much of their drama, and I'm constantly being the shoulder, the mediator, the psychiatrist.... THAT is where my stress comes from, not the work itself (see #1)

But I do want to agree with you a bit

If you want to be a marine biologist, there are steps you should take
If you want to be an astronaut, there are steps you should take
If you want to be president, there are steps you should take

If you just want to get some work done, get the money, pay your bills, then head off to have a good time - WHY is that substandard? its what most of us end up doing anyway

By the time your kids hit high school, they pretty much know what they want to do, what they don't want to do and really no amount of discussion is going to change that

At this point I think my only option is to bribe him to go to school - that doesn't work out well for anyone in the short term - and he can always go to school later - trade or community college - his decision now is NOT the end/all be/all for the rest of his life - though I'm pretty sure its a good indication of his personality, and of him living a similar life to mine

But my life wasnt really bad at all.
Had I been a marine biologist, odds are pretty good I would've just been trading one set of problems for another.

Originally posted by camaro68ss

Originally posted by Forevever

Originally posted by camaro68ss
I just looked it up. Ave year pay for 1st year plumber and marine biologist is nearly the same. 40,000 and 42,000 a year.

now how many people call marine biologist when they have a leak?

ooooooo you're so my favorite poster in this thread!!!
♥♥♥

Im sorry i just hate it when people dog on peoples jobs. There is nothing wrong with plumbers, There is nothing wrong with marine biologist for the mater ether. having a degree does not make you better! There are countless examples of people becoming "rich" without school

edit on 21-6-2011 by camaro68ss because: (no reason given)

Of course there is nothing wrong with plumbers. They are as valuable to society as any other Job. I'm just saying that if I had to choose between being a plumber or going to University, man I'd take University right up! They are centres specialised in education. The education and knowledge you receive there is massively superior to that which you receive from the Internet or any other place for that matter.

But that's just me. Whatever keeps your boat floatin' will do.

Originally posted by Jepic

Originally posted by camaro68ss

Originally posted by Forevever
reply to post by Jepic

 

seriously, when was the last time you hired a plumber? (and what did it cost you...)
when was the last time you hired a marine biologist?

what do you do by the way?

I just looked it up. Ave year pay for 1st year plumber and marine biologist is nearly the same. 40,000 and 42,000 a year.

now how many people call marine biologist when they have a leak?

Care to show me the proof? A link?

look for yourself.

google.com

I'm a high school graduate, have an associates degree in CAD from a technical school, and a Bachelors degree from college. I can tell you from my personal experience, if you're son is not interested in a professional degree such as becoming a doctor, lawyer, engineer, teacher etc... He would be better off taking something he's interested in and going to a technical trade school.

In my case, my trade school education got me much further than my college degree. There are a lot of dead-end college degrees out there. Kids go onto college never really checking into the salaries, or the limited amount of potential income available in some of their chosen fields. Everyone that has gone to college knows someone that has struggled after graduation and not working in their chosen field.

That being said...I ended up becoming a CAD instructor which required me to take additional college classes to get my teaching certificate. I've been teaching for over 16 years now, and have noticed a trend in kids that is extremely concerning to me. It's the same lack of motivation you described in your son. I've taught students from all walks of life and diversities so this is coming from someone that has observed a lot of student behaviors over the years. These are my conclusions from my interactions with parents and their kids over the years.

1. Most kids will model their parents behavior or life experiences.
-Parents who are college graduates will have kids who are motivated to attend college.
-Parents who dropped out of high school, will have a good chance your kids will do the same thing.
-Parents who are into drugs, smoking cigarettes, or abusing alcohol, kids will have a tendency to pick up the same habits.
-Mothers who have become pregnant during their high school years, or fathers who have gotten their high
school sweet hearts pregnant, are more likely their kids will do the same.
-Parents who have criminal or violent backgrounds are more likely to be attracted to criminal activity.

2. Peer influence on your kids education, drug use etc... is extremely strong!
-Who they "hang" with can cause them to change from a positive attitude to a negative attitude.

3. Parents have a very difficult time in changing the attitudes of their kids. Very few parents are successful in changing their negative behavior.
-(I really feel for parents when I talk to them, because a lot of them try, but they just can't get through to
their kids).
-Coming from private industry before becoming a teacher, I know what's expected in the work force and I
stress that in my class on a daily basis. Unfortunately, a lot of kids think they know better... "They'll
work when they get a job because than they're getting paid."

4. A student has to be motivated to learn.
-(I was always bored with teacher lectures when I attended high school, so I always found fun ways to change the way I teach. I teach in a lab setting so students are always applying what they learn.
Unfortunately, no matter how fun you make an activity, some students just don't want to participate).

Lack of motivation and education will end up being the downfall of America. Technology is moving at a very rapid pace. Unless our children become technically skilled and innovative, those countries who do value education and a technically skilled population will be the new economic power.

Originally posted by Jepic

Originally posted by camaro68ss

Originally posted by Forevever
reply to post by Jepic

 

seriously, when was the last time you hired a plumber? (and what did it cost you...)
when was the last time you hired a marine biologist?

what do you do by the way?

I just looked it up. Ave year pay for 1st year plumber and marine biologist is nearly the same. 40,000 and 42,000 a year.

now how many people call marine biologist when they have a leak?

Care to show me the proof? A link?

To me it appears no one really knows unless you consider yahoo and wiki "answers" as reliable sources - if I guesstimate an average all the numbers - it looks like they make about $50,000 a year depending on many things (like which area of marine biology they work in)

Looks like plumbers make between $35 and $45

So in a best case scenario where the biologist wins, they're $15,000 apart

The plumber doesn't have to pay back student loans... how much are they going for these days?

Why does anyone need more than $35,000 a year? (I might get hung for that one... but I don't need that much)

Are we talking about family men here? how many kids? do they rent or own? thats very important!

reply to post by Forevever

By the time your kids hit high school, they pretty much know what they want to do, what they don't want to do and really no amount of discussion is going to change that

Man I agree with you on everything fully. But the quote above me is where I disagree. I'm 20 and if you had seen me three years ago s***... I was seriously considering being a plumber. I didn't have the drive nor concentration to even lay pen on paper! I was so lazy and not interested in knowledge. So I took two years off. Two years where I thought and thought and thought. Those two years have changed me quite a bit. My eyes are open now. What I thought was the end of all two years ago, is no more. Among other things I started to have a thirst for doing something with my life and of gaining knowledge and experience in something. I started wanting to master something. Something that I could feel good about.

reply to post by WeRpeons

-Parents are college graduates kids will be motivated to attend college.
-Parents have dropped out of high school, there's a good chance your kids will do the same thing.
-Parents who are into drugs, smoking cigarettes, or abusing alcohol, kids will have a tendency to pick up the same habits.
-Mothers who have become pregnant during their high school years, or fathers who have gotten their high
school sweet hearts pregnant, have a better chance of their kids doing the same.
-Parents who have criminal or violent backgrounds may have kids who will be attracted to criminal activity.

I agree that parents are influences. However, I don't think thats solely the cause of what you're seeing.

For starters in my life, I dropped out, I got pregnant young, I smoke cigarettes (et al), I've been known to drink alcohol, and exhibit what many would call "bad behavior"

Neither of my children are pregnant, smoke cigarettes, drink alcohol, do drugs, or exhibit any bad behavior.

You're absolutely right that neither of his parents graduated in the traditional sense and he may be taking his cues - but don't underestimate the power of good communication in parenting - I don't just "believe" that my kids don't do those things, I absolutely know for positive sure. How do I know? simply because I've gone through withdrawl and they had to put up with me - if either one of my kids smoked, they'd have been throwing them at me
I am not pleasant in those moments..

Ultimate Mega-fight: nicotine withdrawl vs PMS!!!!

Originally posted by Forevever

Originally posted by Jepic

Originally posted by camaro68ss

Originally posted by Forevever
reply to post by Jepic

 

seriously, when was the last time you hired a plumber? (and what did it cost you...)
when was the last time you hired a marine biologist?

what do you do by the way?

I just looked it up. Ave year pay for 1st year plumber and marine biologist is nearly the same. 40,000 and 42,000 a year.

now how many people call marine biologist when they have a leak?

Care to show me the proof? A link?

To me it appears no one really knows unless you consider yahoo and wiki "answers" as reliable sources - if I guesstimate an average all the numbers - it looks like they make about $50,000 a year depending on many things (like which area of marine biology they work in)

Looks like plumbers make between $35 and $45

So in a best case scenario where the biologist wins, they're $15,000 apart

The plumber doesn't have to pay back student loans... how much are they going for these days?

Why does anyone need more than $35,000 a year? (I might get hung for that one... but I don't need that much)

Are we talking about family men here? how many kids? do they rent or own? thats very important!

Hey you know what they say! The more, the better! Especially in these trying times.

Originally posted by Jepic
reply to post by Forevever

 

By the time your kids hit high school, they pretty much know what they want to do, what they don't want to do and really no amount of discussion is going to change that

Man I agree with you on everything fully. But the quote above me is where I disagree. I'm 20 and if you had seen me three years ago s***... I was seriously considering being a plumber. I didn't have the drive nor concentration to even lay pen on paper! I was so lazy and not interested in knowledge. So I took two years off. Two years where I thought and thought and thought. Those two years have changed me quite a bit. My eyes are open now. What I thought was the end of all two years ago, is no more. Among other things I started to have a thirst for doing something with my life and of gaining knowledge and experience in something. I started wanting to master something. Something that I could feel good about.

Thats awesome that you figured out what you want to do. I know someday I'll figure out what I want to do and get to it also (or I won't.... but if I do it now, at age 37, or in 20 years at age 57, it shouldn't matter, as long as NOW is making me happy)

So let me ask you this - if you had worked during those 2 years, would it be different? Would you be a plumber and advancing in that career to the point that you might even have enjoyed it? Is that not something to be proud of? And even then couldn't you change your mind and quit and go back to school? sure you could!

I am 100% for education if thats what you want to do.
I am 99% against it being STANDARD for those who know they'd be just as happy, if not happier, being (what others call) "lazy", "unmotivated", "scraping by financially", flipping hamburgers at mcdonalds.

You know it does amaze me how many people i've known who got through 11th grade and quit. Everyone says "you got that far, you only got 1 year left, why not just finish"... maybe because they were forced to continue all that time and as someone said above (can't find it now) - one day they just couldn't take it anymore and they left and never looked back

Hey you know what they say! The more, the better! Especially in these trying times.

LOL right
I am sooo glad I had kids when I did - there is no way in hell I'd give birth now
could you imagine having to take care of a small child in a SHTF type situation?
I got loads of family just popping them out too and I just shake my head....
Some have up to 5 kids - why does anyone need 5 kids? ... permanent attachments to 3 different men?....
so ridiculous - learn to use a contraceptive already (too difficult for her, she got her tubes tied)

reply to post by Forevever

So let me ask you this - if you had worked during those 2 years, would it be different? Would you be a plumber and advancing in that career to the point that you might even have enjoyed it? Is that not something to be proud of? And even then couldn't you change your mind and quit and go back to school? sure you could!

Yea I could. But I didn't even have the will and drive to do a plumbing course. I just needed time to mature and grasp that will power. I picked up the guitar. That helped me too. Both creatively and psychologically.

I guess what we can learn about this is: Do what you like and what you feel ready to do in the moment.

reply to post by Forevever


I agree good communication is a key in parenting. I also think getting kids involved in sports at a young age really helps them to understand about hard work, social interaction, dedication, respect, team work and self discipline.

There are some things I did when I was in high school that I'm not proud of. I know they were wrong, but I wouldn't think about talking about those things when my kids were growing up. Some parents will say things like "I did that when I was in high school" in front of their kids. I think when you say things like that it gives your son or daughter the "green light", and they start thinking if dad did that I guess it's ok if I do it too!

Teachers have problems with their own kids. I've had students of teachers and even some of them lacked motivation. I even had one student that dropped out! I had my fair share of problems with my kids when they were growing up. It's very difficult to raise kids today with all the access they have to technology and the poor role models they see on TV.

Teachers are now competing with cell phones, IPOD's, hand held video games and internet access. Not to mention lack of respect for teachers, poor motivation, fighting, rampant vulgar language, inappropriate sexual conversations and dress. It's not the same as when you or I were going to school.

There used to be a particular way girls would act and how guys would act. Now girls act just like guys and some are even worst!!! I've had to break-up more girl fights than guys since I started teaching. Some girls can be way more disrespectful than the guys. Most guys will walk back to their seat after being reprimanded for doing something wrong, the girls will start an argument and get down right nasty. They also talk as vulgar and sexually explicit as the guys. It just seems the girls no longer have respect for themselves. Guys don't even treat them with respect. It's just a completely different social interaction than what I've always been accustomed to.

reply to post by WeRpeons


I agree, getting kids involved in sports is good for kids who are athletic - mine are not though....
I hope that other activities they got involved in (and even the last 10+ years of school) might help them in understanding team work, social interaction, etc - it definitely helps that they have each other (in contrast, I was an only child, so I may statistically fall into the narcissistic antisocial typeface of that) - it still comes down to who the kid is inside though

Mine are only 20 months apart, identical upbringing, lots of family time - they're like night and day on every issue - for example, the 17 year old is never home, always a social engagement to attend, friends calling, etc (and I know all his friends, and I know their stories, and I know all their cell phone numbers since he doesn't have one, and i can always find him within a call or three, and I'm extremely proud of the friends my son has chosen for himself)

The 19 year old is totally anti-social, just really has absolutely no interest in going anywhere to meet anyone or join in anything - I wasn't the least bit surprised when he blew off his graduation ceremony - thats just who he is - and lord help me if the 19 year old ever did anything wrong - I would not have the first clue how to punish him - since his favorite activity is to READ a book ..... nothing short of forcing him to sit and stare into a corner would work (and even then he'd probably just sleep... a totally different breed that kid....) - not so much an issue of punishment anymore since he's technically an adult, but you get what I mean

I also agree that parents should NOT be saying "oh yeah I did that when I was in school" unless they also plan to outline the full scenario along with its consequences. It has nothing to do with the kids can't understand or think its a greenlight - cause they do understand - but if you fail to give them all the information.. they can't be expected to make an educated decision. Discussion is key, not just talking either, you have to ask a zillion questions and LISTEN to the responses and discuss them all.

There is a very fine line between what your kids should be told, and how you tell them. I think most parents with problem kids fail to recognize that line. It comes back to poor communication.

Its very simple why I'm a smoker and my kids are not, because its been made very clear to them every single time I go into a coughing fit or lose my breath going short distances, that SMOKING did this to me. There have been incredibly detailed and countless discussions on addiction and its effects, and the clarity that if they choose to smoke, there's nothing I can do about it except REMIND THEM that I attempted to save them from the misery I suffer for those choices (of course I'm in denial, lighting another cigarette as I type this, but thats another part of addiction and has been discussed).

One of the most important things I think I ever told mine, was that I made these mistakes so that you didn't have to - but its still your choice and if you choose to do wrong, the consequences are yours. And there's nothing worse in this world than suffering consequences and having your mother mad at you for it.

I tend to believe giving kids a certain amount of freedom, and control over their own lives, makes them more likely to give it a lot of thought before making a choice. It also makes them responsible for their actions.

Telling your kids once in a while, "don't do drugs, don't smoke cigarettes, don't have sex" then NOT telling them why, is BS - Your ONLY job as a parent is to give your kids all the information they need to make an educated (and even moral) decision for themselves - because they WILL make the choices - and if they don't know right from wrong, theres no one to blame but the parent...

So I guess my problem is why is it so wrong for him to want to work?....

Every detail of talks with my kids are carefully planned out ahead of time - which is one of the reasons I came here with this before I really sat him down and laid it all out.

In the end, he's 17 - there's not much I can do about it if he wants to quit - I'm going to have to try to understand his choice (even though I already do), BUT before I let him make that decision, I need to hear both sides - my side is pretty clear... convincing him otherwise is going to be near impossible

I'm sorry to see this thread didn't get more attention
but I'm happy to see there are at least some who can agree that furthering your education is a good way, but not the only way

Tonight I told him do dishes after dinner (I rarely do that, its not on his list of chores, dishes are a Mom duty in my house, and no I dont own a dishwasher) - we were chatting while he was washing and I told him it was part of his punishment - he told me he figured that was coming - never complaining, never talking back, never an attitude that isn't in jest....

Then he said something really interesting... he told me the only reason "grounding" works on him, is because he respects me - he just wanted me to know that (maybe I should push him into politics )

But he's right. And I respect him.

on the other hand, I sometimes think the only reason my kids do what I say is because they don't want to talk about it
look at this post, and I only meant to say one thing
My name is Forevever and I am an over-explainer
(Hi Forevever!!)