Gold.

"When we have gold we are in fear, when we have none we are in danger"
~old proverb~

Gold is an element on the periodic table.

Atomic Number: 79

Symbol: Au

Atomic Weight: 196.9665

Discovery: known since prehistoric time

Properties: The melting point of gold is an assigned value, which serves as a calibration point for the International Temperature Scale and International Practical Temperature Scale. In mass, gold is a yellow-colored metal, although it may be black, ruby, or purple when finely divided. Gold is the most malleable and ductile metal. One ounce of gold can be beaten out to 300 ft2. Gold is a good conductor of electricity and heat. It is not affected by exposure to air or to most reagents. It is inert and a good reflector of infrared radiation. Gold is usually alloyed to increase its strength. Pure gold is measured in troy weight, but when gold is alloyed with other metals the term karat is used to express the amount of gold present.

Wait a minute, it's been known since prehistoric times?? If it was known before recorded history then how do we know that prehistoric man knew about it? We can't just believe everything we read on the internet...that is how World War I got started. There is plenty of evidence to support prehistoric gold mining.

www.ncgold.com...
This is one is quite provocative even though it is fringe at best.

Why is gold worth anything now that we have dollars? It's just a yellow metal with no real purpose for the average person. You can't eat gold...right? You must understand why gold has value. In a most simplistic explanation I enjoy this excerpt from a cinematic masterpiece:

Treasure of the Sierra Madre.



Gold is MONEY with intrinsic value. Dollars are FIAT money with value declared by a governing body. In 1971 the US Dollar was separated from Gold by Nixon, ala the Bretton Woods Conference. It was at this time the USD was undermined and became fiat currency. So why does the price of gold jump around if it is so stable? The value of gold has remained the same (generally) for quite some time, it is the value of the currency used to buy gold that is unstable. For example, a hundred years ago one ounce of gold ($20 USD) would buy you a really nice fitted suit. Today, one ounce of gold ($1540 USD) will buy you a really nice fitted suit. You see, it is the dollar/global economy that is unstable. Of course supply and demand have an effect on its price as well.

How much gold has been mined in the world?

In the world there are currently somewhere between 120,000 and 140,000 tonnes of gold ‘above ground’. To visualise this imagine a single solid gold cube with edges of about 19 metres (about three metres short of the length of a tennis court). That's all that has ever been produced.

What's it worth ?

The value of that short tennis court sized cube is about $1.8 trillion. This compares to the US government’s sovereign debt of $6.9 trillion, which until 1971 was part-backed by gold. The US Gold Reserve is just over 8,000 tonnes - which is about 6% of the total gold ever mined. It is worth about $100 billion, or 1.5% of the US national debt. $1.8 trillion is about one fourteenth of the paper based international bond markets, which themselves, at about $26 trillion, are about two thirds composed of western government sovereign debt almost all of which has appeared, co-incidentally, since 1971 and the declared supremacy of paper money, which was what allowed governments to borrow without caution. The total gold content of the world would pay - at current values - about 7% of the international bond market's sovereign debt.

But of course 75% of the world's gold is not available to governments - being held privately as jewellery, bullion and coin. In fact only about 30,000 tonnes, about 1% of the world's sovereign debt is what is held in central bank gold reserves.

Meanwhile the entire gold stock of the world - including the privately held bulk - is much less than one half of one percent of the underwritten risk in the global financial derivatives markets.

75% of the above ground gold is not available to governments! This is why gold is a tough market to manipulate by any given source. As of July 15th, 2011 it will be even harder to manipulate as derivitaves that are leveraged over 10:1 will no longer be tradeable by US markets.

So what happens if the USD collapses or the Sh!t Hits The Fan (SHTF)? Will gold become worthless? This is a tough question without a definitive answer. We can look at the historical record of mankind for some insight. History is full of SHTF senarios but never, not once during recorded history, has gold become "worthless." Gold evolves into the medium for exchange because rarely do two bartering party's have the goods that each party desire. Is it better to have seeds, ammo, food stockpiles, mini alcohol bottles, gemstones, or even silver coins to barter with over gold? Every SHTF senario is different and this means there is no absolutes. Personally, I have a little of everything but only stockpile gold for the purpose of barter and to preserve my wealth from the manipulation of banks/politicians.

If any of you become convinced your gold is worthless, please contact me...I will give you something for it. I know first hand how tough it is to find.

Have a nice day

To me, gold is worthless. Obviously I can sell gold for a lot of money, so it's valuable for that reason, but gold has no actual value, other than the fact I can get dollars if I sell it.

People talk about the US dollar being worth nothing, because it isn't backed by gold. Well, what makes gold valuable? The same thing that makes the USD valuable, people accept it in trade for things.

If TSHTF, and someone wants to buy some of my guns, knives, food, clothes, or other supplies, I'll laugh in their face. What do I want a heavy piece of useless metal for? I can't eat it, I can't hunt or defend myself with it, it won't keep me warm, it won't keep the rain off my back, I can't build anything of use with it (I'm not going to be manufacturing electronics after TSHTF, and I don't care for jewelry and trinkets)

If people are stocking up on gold as a way to maintain wealth over the long term, it's a great idea. But in my opinion, if people are holding onto it for a SERIOUS SHTF situation, I think they will be sadly surprised by the lack of value it will have.

People will be trading food, weapons, tools, clothes, etc. They will have no use or want for a useless heavy brick of metal.

Just my two cents....

the argentina collapse and a first persons view on how the people survived...this might be informative for american citizens if it happens here.

www.silverbearcafe.com...

I always S&F a pro-PM post/thread.

Fiat currency is government-approved and printed funny money.

Irredeemable currency, in Ayn Rand's words "a counterfeit pile of paper", the output of the paper mill in Manhattan, does not deserve to be called "money".

Making money was the highest activity of men before looters invaded the nerve-center of capitalism and abolished the gold-reserve requirement for the issuance of Federal Reserve notes in 1968. Ever since "making money" has been the lowest activity of men whereby the savers and producers are fleeced of their substance. Watch for the day when the last meaningful productive job in America is exported to China. On that day American society will become a zoo, and American citizens will be reduced to the station of animals in the cage, totally dependent on the zoo-keeper for food and shelter.

Hymn to Money
That was written in 2002. It is certainly starting to feel like a zoo and the TSA/NSA/DHS and police are making it like a cage.


Ayn Rand has published several books about gold and how it is a component of a free economy. Here is a glimpse into her ideas...

Gold and economic freedom are inseparable, . . . the gold standard is an instrument of laissez-faire and . . . each implies and requires the other.

What medium of exchange will be acceptable to all participants in an economy is not determined arbitrarily. Where store-of-value considerations are important, as they are in richer, more civilized societies, the medium of exchange must be a durable commodity, usually a metal. A metal is generally chosen because it is homogeneous and divisible: every unit is the same as every other and it can be blended or formed in any quantity.

Precious jewels, for example, are neither homogeneous nor divisible. More important, the commodity chosen as a medium must be a luxury. Human desires for luxuries are unlimited and, therefore, luxury goods are always in demand and will always be acceptable . . . .

The term “luxury good” implies scarcity and high unit value. Having a high unit value, such a good is easily portable; for instance, an ounce of gold is worth a half-ton of pig iron . . . .

Under the gold standard, a free banking system stands as the protector of an economy’s stability and balanced growth. In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation. There is no safe store of value. If there were, the government would have to make its holding illegal, as was done in the case of gold . . . .

The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves. This is the shabby secret of the welfare statists’ tirades against gold. Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the “hidden” confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights. If one grasps this, one has no difficulty in understanding the statists’ antagonism toward the gold standard.

Gold Standard Courtesy Ayn Rand's Capitalism and former Greenspan ideas.

As a holder of PM, what concerns me is the history of the American government seizing private gold in times of economic stress, see Executive Order 6102. Somehow taking citizens gold allegedly helps during national crises...makes no sense to me.

reply to post by James1982


I urge you to watch the video I posted again. The fundamental reason for gold having value is the same even today.

You are entitled to you opinions and I respect them. I doubt anything I say will change your views.

If a SHTF senario has any longevity bartering will begin to take place. Bartering will occur for both goods AND services. The needs/wants of every individual consumer changes from person to person. A man who has stockpiled ammo may wish to do business with a seed vendor. The seed vendor doesn't need ammo. So now what?

What evolves is a medium of exchange. Now, this medium MUST have certain properties to be accepted my all (or most). The meduim must be easily recognisable and hard to counterfeit. The medium must be consistantly measureable and divisable. It must be rare or have a controlled quantity. It must be small enough to carry with relative ease.

Do you understand why gold becomes a perfect medium for exchange? Yes, I know gold is heavy and becomes inconvienent in large amounts.

This is why the gold standard wouldn't work. There isn't enough gold in the world to match the economy's. If everyone with money went to the banks to cash in their dollars for actual gold what would happen?

reply to post by BenIndaSun


I agree another gold confiscation would be pathetic. I would not give mine up, even if it means leaving the country. I have tried protecting against this in buying US minted gold eagles. It is likely a new confiscation would include these instuments so that the reclamation is not usurped so easily. Thank for the S+F

Originally posted by kro32
This is why the gold standard wouldn't work. There isn't enough gold in the world to match the economy's. If everyone with money went to the banks to cash in their dollars for actual gold what would happen?

When people say a gold standard they do not mean for every dollar you must have a ounce of gold. It only means that you must have an ounce or tonne of gold for (x) amount of dollars to be printed. This means you can't just print money every time there is a problem. You have to work for the money...like everyone else.

Originally posted by QuantumDisciple

Originally posted by kro32
This is why the gold standard wouldn't work. There isn't enough gold in the world to match the economy's. If everyone with money went to the banks to cash in their dollars for actual gold what would happen?

When people say a gold standard they do not mean for every dollar you must have a ounce of gold. It only means that you must have an ounce or tonne of gold for (x) amount of dollars to be printed. This means you can't just print money every time there is a problem. You have to work for the money...like everyone else.

So your saying that they are basically still printing worthless money then? I'm not that knowledgable in economic things but I'm failing to see the difference between a gold standard and today then.

reply to post by kro32


Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. There is no gold backing the US Dollar. They print it up whenever they want (basically). They print every time congress appropriates funds, everytime new money is deposited into member banks of the Fed (see fractional reserve lending). The value of the dollar is dictated to you.

reply to post by kro32


Here, watch this. Educate yourself, deny ignorance. It's long but worth it. Start at 3:14 if you are short on time

Gold doesn't have an intinsic value. In a barter situation it has the value that the buyer puts on it.

If you are low on food and I have a surplus and you want to trade your gold for some of my surplus then I would probably be sorry to tell you that the gold has no trading value.

I'm sure you will find someone to take the gold off of your hands but trading an ounce of gold bought at $1,000 for a couple hundred pounds of grain which in todays market goes for less than $50.00 doesn't seem like it has a value that does well in any situation.

Originally posted by daskakik
Gold doesn't have an intinsic value. In a barter situation it has the value that the buyer puts on it.

If you are low on food and I have a surplus and you want to trade your gold for some of my surplus then I would probably be sorry to tell you that the gold has no trading value.

I'm sure you will find someone to take the gold off of your hands but trading an ounce of gold bought at $1,000 for a couple hundred pounds of grain which in todays market goes for less than $50.00 doesn't seem like it has a value that does well in any situation.

I'm afraid I must disagree on several of your points.

Intrinsic value of an item. Since you used food to explain a senario I will oblige. Let us take a bushel of rice for an example. What is the intrinsic value of a bussel of rice? Well accoding to someone who believes in labor theory, a bussel of rice is worth all the labor and materials it took to produce to produce the bushel. This view makes sense but is deeply flawed. It does not take into consideration supply and demand. Is that bushel of rice more expensive in China or in Northern Canada? It depends on BOTH the supply/demand and the cost of production.

I know what you are thinking,,,rice has purpose. You can eat rice. People want rice to survive. People will barter for rice because it has great properties for a high carb meal. You can not eat gold (easily). Like the rice's riceness, gold is desired for the particular qualities inherent to gold. While rice is good to eat, and so it serves a useful function as food, gold's qualities are the exact qualities you'd want if you were to design money.

Do you understand the need for money amongst barter? A straight trade for goods rarely works as both parties rarely have the same needs for what is available to trade. Hence, a monetary unit is derived to hold value. You with your food my come across me and find that you need something that I posess a stockpile of and am willing to barter/trade. You come to me with you food in exchange for my medical supplies. I have enough food. What else can you offer. I want a vehicle. Your vehicle is worth more than a med kit. Are you seeing the need for a monetary unit yet?

reply to post by QuantumDisciple


I understand your point. I do see where a standardized currency helps smooth out the exchange of goods and services.

What I don't agree with is that gold has some intrinsic and universal value. The reason it has any value at all is because at some moment in time governments agreed to use it as currency and establish some way to agree on it's worth.

reply to post by QuantumDisciple


Oh yes I agree with you 100% in that regard. In the long term, as society begins to reconstruct, I have no doubt that gold would become the norm as currency once again.

For people who have a decent amount of wealth right now, holding gold and other precious metals is a great idea, in addition to firearms, ammo, clothes, food, tools, etc.

But for me, and many many others out there, we can't afford to have thousands of dollars of gold laying around, when we would me much better off with putting that money into food, weapons, tool, and other supplies. These are the things that will be worth their weight in gold immediately following a collapse of society, and still useful before any collapse, or if a collapse never happens.

Like I said, it's my opinion, and it's relevant to my personal situation right now, by I believe many others are in the same situation. That situation being extremely limited financial resources, that, again in my opinion, would be much better spent on firearms, long term storage of food, and other related goods.

If everything fell apart tomorrow, I would feel much better with a rifle over my shoulder, a pistol on my belt, and a pack stocked full of food and medical supplies, as opposed to a pocket full of gold.

Originally posted by James1982
reply to post by QuantumDisciple

 

If everything fell apart tomorrow, I would feel much better with a rifle over my shoulder, a pistol on my belt, and a pack stocked full of food and medical supplies, as opposed to a pocket full of gold.

I agree. Gold is not meant to replace the essentials. I would rather stockpile gold as a means to barter with than say medical supplies. I would only carry enough meds to satisfy my projected need.

reply to post by daskakik


Well in a sense the governments of the world have a say in what gold is worth. This is because the central banks of the world hold some 30% of the total amount of gold ever mined. But the overwelming majority of above ground gold is owned privately in the form of jewlery, ornamentation, or private bullion. This means the value of gold is decided by what seller is willing to sell for and/or what a buyer is willing to buy with. It would be said that the value is decided by "the marketplace." It must be generally agreed that gold is an appropriate medium to hold value. The physical properties in the element, in conjunction with it's rarity on Earth, make gold a near-perfect agent to store value.

Well the price of gold in a piece is established by the market. But you said it yourself:

the value of gold is decided by what seller is willing to sell for and/or what a buyer is willing to buy with. It would be said that the value is decided by "the marketplace." It must be generally agreed that gold is an appropriate medium to hold value. The physical properties in the element, in conjunction with it's rarity on Earth, make gold a near-perfect agent to store value.

My point exactly, if it isn't agreed that it is an appropriate medium to hold value then it is worthless. The fact that a market exists that gives it (the physical amount) a value is what everything else is based on. Take that away and it's just as worthless as paper money.

even if gold had no monetary value it still has a trade value for its ability to make beautiful things and its health and electrical properties..you get nothing with paper money but a fire starter or bed stuffing

Originally posted by daskakik
Well the price of gold in a piece is established by the market. But you said it yourself:

the value of gold is decided by what seller is willing to sell for and/or what a buyer is willing to buy with. It would be said that the value is decided by "the marketplace." It must be generally agreed that gold is an appropriate medium to hold value. The physical properties in the element, in conjunction with it's rarity on Earth, make gold a near-perfect agent to store value.

My point exactly, if it isn't agreed that it is an appropriate medium to hold value then it is worthless. The fact that a market exists that gives it (the physical amount) a value is what everything else is based on. Take that away and it's just as worthless as paper money.

edit on 19-6-2011 by daskakik because: (no reason given)

How do people pick a medium to hold value? How do people agree on something that important? The medium must satisfy the needs of ALL parties (buyer, seller, saver, and debtor). If the medium is rejected by any facet of commerce it will fail. The medium must:

Be divisible into smaller units without loss of value

Be fungible: that is, one unit or piece must be perceived as equivalent to any other, which is why diamonds, works of art or real estate are not suitable as money

Be able to be reliably saved, stored, and retrieved (non parishable)

There should be no (or minimal) spread between the prices to buy and sell the instrument being used as money.

The value of the money must also remain stable over time (supply is regulated or naturally rare)

A specific weight, or measure, or size to be verifiably countable. For instance, coins are often milled with a reeded edge, so that any removal of material from the coin (lowering its commodity value) will be easy to detect.

Impervious to countfeiting.

These are among many of the concerns that a medium/money must address. As you can begin to see, gold is a wonderful answer to these guidlines for defining a good/excepted exchange medium. Gold makes a good exchange medium (money) like rice makes a good food.

Gold has been tested for 1000's of years. It is the ultimate way to hold wealth and will continue to be well after the day the dollar dies.